The biggest lie in this discussion is: "Illegal Aliens will do jobs Americans don't want to do." That's total BS. The reality is: "Illegals will do jobs for a WAGE that Americans won't accept." All illegal aliens do is lower the standard of living for everyone.
Absolutely. There is no shortage of labor or manpower as some would lead you to believe. There is a shortage of slave labor, however. With the middle class salary getting lower and lower, guess where Corporate America is herding us?
I absolutely agree. If Americans don't get control back of this country, we are going to lose out. We are being invaded and it is obvious the government could care less. We need more mayors across the U.S. that has the guts to do what the mayor of Hazleton,PA has done. Check it out... http://www.hazletoncity.org/home_frameset.htm He has the right idea...We need more like him..
Illegals don't necessarily lower the standard of living. It is precisely because immigrants are in the US working at car washes, construction companies, gardening, food service, etc. that you are able to get a pizza delivered for $10, have your car washed for $12, get someone to mow your lawn for $20. So, illegal immigrants actually can raise your standard of living. Same story goes for Wal-Mart. Nobody focuses on the invisible benefits that low costs bring to millions of consumers. People only tend to focuse on the low price companies are willing to pay for relatively unskilled labor. The key for Americans is upgrading their skills through education. BTW - I have seen the alternative. Go to Scandinavia where immigration is relatively limited. It will cost you $80 for a haircut, you can rarely even get a pizza delivered, a dinner in a restaurant costs $100, because anything that requires the slightest bit of labor costs ridiculous amounts. Why? Because there is a limited amount of cheaper labor coming in to take low-end service jobs (among other reasons) Immigration is a win-win. The immigrants win by gettting access better-paying jobs than they could find in their home country. Americans win by maintaining cheap access to goods & services. Seal up the borders and we'll see how happy you are to pay $30 for a hamburger.
FreeThinker, what makes your argument so absurd is that there are still large areas of the country where jobs like pizza delivery and car washing are done by natives. I live in the midwest and none of those jobs are done by illegals. Many of those low paying jobs are a good start for teenagers seeking spending money. They also teach our young people to have a good work ethic. We're not paying more for those services than people are in the southwest. In fact, the construction industry here, unlike the southwest, isn't dominated by illegals. It's nearly all American workers, yet housing is far cheaper here than in the southwest. That illegal labor has yet to drive down the prices of goods and services; it's merely increased the profits for those who employ them. Illegal immigration is at an all time high, and now we've seen average wages for Americans going down, while the cost of health care goes up and retirement benefits are being lost. Corporate profits are at an all time high, though. Your argument just doesn't hold water. Corporations fund pro-illegal groups like MALDEF and LARAZA, while clueless "free thinkers" help further corporate pillaging of the middle class. When will it end, and what will it take to stop this war on the middle class?
The fact that housing is cheaper in the midwest compared to the southwest has less to do with illegal immigration and more to do with market demand. Market demand for housing (relative to supply) is what drives prices, regardless of the actual cost of construction.
In many parts of the US, immigration (legal or illegal) has driven down the cost of low-value add services, and is part of what keeps the prices of basic goods down. Not all (few in fact) of the goods you consume are produced in the midwest. The current low prices you pay for many goods are kept low by immigration and free trade.
It may be true that in the midwest there is sufficient teenage labor to fill all low-end service jobs at an appropriate market rate. I don't have any data on this. What I do know is true is that in many other parts of the country this is not the case. Specifically, on the West Coast local US labor is not available to fill low-end service jobs. I can't speak to your view that teenagers should fill all those jobs because it teaches good work ethic. All I know is that hamburgers would be more expensive in these parts of the country if labor were not readily available. Would you prefer $10 hamburgers or immigrants serving you $3 hamburgers. This is a simplification, I know, but is at the heart of this discussion.
The cost of health care rising has nothing to do with immigration, unless you are referring specifically to the cost that is incurred by illegals seeking medical treatment. I assure you that this is not what is driving the overall increase. Rather, it is the rising costs of new treatments, devices, equipment, and labor required to provide medical services. It would be growing even faster if we didn't allow Filipino nurses and doctors from India to come to the US and fill the gap in qualified US medical staff. That's not to say that the govt. should not make significant effort to increase cost pressure on pharma companies, etc. It should, but I can tell you that is something that will never happen under a Republican administration.
Corporate profits are at an all time high. This is true. However, it is not true that this is primarily driven by illegal immigration. When you say corporate profits, you are referring to profits of publicly traded companies. These companies generally have tightly controlled labor practices and rarely employ illegals. If you have data to the contrary I have an open mind. Local construction companies are not generally considered corporate America. I have no information on whether or not profits at privatley owned copmanies that emply mostly illegals have been rising.
Globalization is helping many desperately poor people in developing countries live better lives.
"Globalization is helping many desperately poor people in developing countries live better lives. "
That quote explains your failed reasoning more than anything. While globalization may raise the living standards of some of the world's poor, it's lowering the living standards of Americans, creating a labor market for workers more like Mexico's every day. That same globalization has resulted in large unemployment in the high tech sector for American workers (and I don't even need to mention the devastating effect it's had on manufacturing, and manufacturing is essential for a nation that wants to be on the cutting edge of technological development). Globalists want an unlimited number of H1-B visas to replace American workers with low paid foreigners; that will just replace outsourcing. A recent study (Pew Hispanic Center) showed that workplace participation among teenage workers was significantly lower in border states. It's simply that illegals are replacing Americans in those jobs.
It becomes simple: why are wages and benefits for middle class workers on the decline? When you have a labor surplus instead of a shortage, wages decline. Look at the meat packing industry. In the early eighties, average wages were much higher than now. Wages have been pushed down for years due to the fact they employ so many illegal aliens.
Finally, it's insane to ignore the cultural effects of unlimited immigration. It's changing the face of America and not in a good way. Orderly immigration from countries all over the planet is fine, and has succeeded in the past. But an unprecendented invasion of third worlders who have no allegiance to America, but rather an allegiance to Mexico, is not something that Americans ever asked for. Even if the economic benefits were real and not exaggerated (and that's clearly not the case), is it really worth it to make your nation into an unrecognizable shell of what it once was? Is it worth it to make America basically into a shopping mall or airport for economic reasons?
As for health care, I should point out that over forty hospitals have closed in California alone, due in large part to illegal immigrants overwhelming their emergency rooms. And another reason not to let those who worship at the alter of the GDP dominate this discussion: the billions of dollars in drugs coming across our porous southern border. All of the marijuana, and over 80% of the meth and cocaine come from Mexico.
I believe if we do a cost-benefit analysis that the costs of open borders far, far outweigh the benefits.
"I believe if we do a cost-benefit analysis that the costs of open borders far, far outweigh the benefits"
If we assume that the statement you made is correct (which it is not) what you are in fact saying is "the costs of open borders far outweigh the benefits....for Americans" In essence you are saying who cares about everyone else in the world as long as we Americans can maintain our standard of living.
I consider myself a global citizen, and am concerned with more than just the welfare of Americans.
You wrote: ""Illegal Aliens will do jobs Americans don't want to do." That's total BS."
I am afraid you do not understand Econ 101. A job is worth only what someone capable of doing it would accept for it. Therefore, if someone can do it for $1 a hour, do not expect to get it for $10 a hour just because you were born somewhere or have a certain skin color. Comprendez?
On another note, I bet you would be the first to complain or switch brands if plastic spoons started costing $1 a piece.
FreeThinker....I suggest you stamp your passport once again and go back to whatever Socialist country you came from. Illegal Immigration is an AMERICAN issue right now so I doubt you'll get any sympathy from anyone because you're concerned about what is happening around the rest of the world. If you spent any time in the public sector, you'd know that illegal immigration sucks away precious resources for those that actually PAY taxes to those who pay NO taxes. It's called the subterranean economy and it's eroding our true cost of living.
Just to clarify, I am an American. I am an American who has lived & worked in hyper-capitalist Asian economies, 3rd world countries & yes, European socialist countries. However, Uncle Sam still gets his cut of my paycheck. Oh yes, and I have also spent time in the public sector.
I think you're statement "Illegal immigration is an AMERICAN problem" perfectly sums up the point. I don't fundamentally disagree with anything you said regarding the challenges of the middle class in the US. However these challenges are small compared to those faced by the people hopping our borders just to put some food on their childrens' tables. People need to recognize that by focusing exclusively on these middle class concerns (I am middle class, by the way)that what they are ultimately saying is they do not care about the standard of living of anyone outside of the 50 states as long as America is able to maintain it's consumption trend. Who cares if children in Mexico starve because their daddy can't find work as long as we are able to maintain our standard of living. This is what you're saying, right?
Personally, I feel immigration is an American, Mexican, Chinese, etc. problem. I find it baffling that readers such as Sullivan are not "concerned about what is happening around the rest of the world". If we don't start becoming "concerned about what is happening around the rest of the world" events like 9/11 will become more common.
"if we didn't allow Filipino nurses and doctors from India to come to the US and fill the gap in qualified US medical staff" --- Filipinos would come from the Phillipines -- not India. Freethinker you spout off alot of factoids without backing them up with sources. So do alot of other factoid asserters on this board.
As a "global citizen", do you think the world will be a better or a poorer place when Western traditions, values, and institutions have been overwhelmed, even in their ancestral homelands, by third world peasants in search of a better life and their cascade of native-born-but-never-assimilated descendents?
I, for one, would be willing to drive down and pick up my own pizza (maybe even pay 30 bucks for the occasional hamburger) if it meant my society could maintain it's traditional norms of decency, tolerance, individual freedom, and the rule of law. I don't see those values featuring prominently in ANY of the societies from which the current immigrant tide is flowing. If these people are migrating out of economic desparation and have contempt for America (or the West, in general) and refuse to assimilate, why on earth would you expect any of these values to survive?
The War on the Middle Class by the International Rich is ongoing and intense. By flooding First World countries with Third World poor, the IntRich are succeeding in their efforts to reduce all Workers in the world to poverty wages and once again control the world thru feudalism. They have no loyalty to anything but money. They own the Governments and Media, and hate the Middle Class. We are the only thing standing between them and complete control. Fight 21st Century Slavery, Stop Illegal Immigration!
Before the illegal immigrant invasion gained such momentum, when American workers made living wages, had at least some healthcare benefits provided by employers, and some sort of retirement benefits, did you ever have to pay anything ridiculous like $20 or $30 for a hamburger? If you look around, you'll find that most prices today have risen for products despite the slave-wage levels paid to illegals, who incidentally, manage to send billions of dollars back to Mexico, thus avoiding adding to our economy. Yes, Mexico has a huge poverty problem, which its government refuses to address. If Mexicans had the courage and leadership, they would take the government away from those who insist that the drug trade is America's problem, not theirs. Understandable, in a way, because so much of the money made in drug trading goes into the pockets of those who govern. If you recall our own history, more than 200 years ago, early Americans overthrew an oppressive British government and established a republic of the people, by the people, and for the people. Sadly, it has evolved into a state of the corrupt, by the powerful, for the greedy. We are becoming Mexico, whose middle class, incidentally, is growing while America's is disappearing. Your focus on the cost benefits resulting from the massive influx of lower-class Mexicans fails to address the serious consequences that have accompanied the phenomenon, however. We do not know how many terrorists have entered this country with the immigrants; our healthcare system, which is already a disaster, is rapidly deteriorating and taxpayers are paying for the care of milliions of illegal immigrants (visit a hospital emergency room and see the results for yourself); classrooms are overcrowded, greater student-teacher ratios mean teachers spend less attention to fewer students' needs; crime rates have risen, especially violent crimes; the drug trade has profited as never before, and it continues to grow almost totally unrestrained; identity theft is rampant, due to the counterfeiting of documents and the outrageous abuse of Social Security numbers by illegals (one woman in California found that her SSN was being used by 216 illegal immigrants when she was sued for payment of debts incurred by illegal immigrants); illegal immigrants do not want to assimilate, but want to have all the rights and privileges granted to citizens without earning them by trying to gain citizenship legally; and many more consequences. Open your eyes, FreeThinker. Someone has sold your country, and this one is becoming Mexico. Wait until the North American Union deal finalizes, supposedly by 2010. Things will be much worse then.
Freethinker, Good for you. I'm a US citizen, and it is my duty to look out for the common welfare of my countrymen over that of foreigners. I have no problem with helping other countries solve their problems at home, but I will never do so at the expense of the US citizenry.
Re your statement: "All illegal aliens do is lower the standard of living for everyone." Not everyone. They raise the standard of living for themselves, because Mexico is a depressed economy. The United States economy has produced a strong middle class, whose dynamic energy and work ethic has created a wealth unprecedented in human history. Unfortunately, that work ethic has been exploited by the economic elite to distribute wealth to the working class.
That's why the illegal aliens are being allowed by the US powerbrokers to migrate unimpeded; because the powers behind international money want to bring down the strong middle class. They want us all to be reduced to the standard of the illegal aliens. When their plan is complete, even the illegal aliens will be returned to their previous poverty. So, in the end, you are absolutely correct: "All illegal aliens do is lower the standard of living for everyone."
FreeThinker has zeroed in on the core of the problem! The next question is: "Who benefits from the open borders?" The working middle class? The illegal aliens? The answer to this question will open all understanding to the global emergency at the root of the surrender of the United States of America.
I cannot compete with third world workers who are willing to work for $5 a day and live in a cardboard box with 15 other third world workers.... yet. The objective of the global elite is to "adjust" my middle class expectation to live better. If we (the working middle class) continue to allow this madness, very soon we too will be "EDUCATED" to work for $5 a day and live in a cardboard box with 15 other "EDUCATED" workers. Orwellian?
Furthermore, the problem is not as simple as "FreeThinker" describes it.... Corporate America is anxious to access low cost wage (aka slave) labor, but will not pass that savings on to the consumer. They simply pocket the increased profit. In a pure capitalism, supply and demand would reduce prices, but what we are seeing in Corporate America is pure GREED!
FreeThinker you couldnt be more wrong. Scandanavians pay so much for things because they have some of the biggest welfare states in the world. And they have plenty of immigration. They suffer from white guilt and therefore take many "refugees" from all over the world.