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Showing 1-25 of 39 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Aug 27, 2006 1:40:30 PM PDT
The problem with Bawer is that he exploits too easily Europe's and American's ignorance of Islam (a community that is already viewed with suspicion and hostility) and exploits that with angry and hateful world view of an existential struggle against a major world religion, similar to Hitler's hateful view against Judaism.

To him anti-Semitism is justified (Arabs being Semitic) since European Muslims are guilty until proven innocent and are a fifth column wanting to establish their own rules. Forget that 92% of British Muslims say that there is nothing contradictory about being a
`British' and a `Muslim' and many Muslim Brits serve in the Southern Iraq.

He would rather focus on the 2% of the 8% who say Britain is at war with Muslims, instead of the overwhelming majority to justify her sweeping generalizations about one of the three Abrahamic religions.

In that spirit, the book seems to capitalize on European resentment and even seek to justify what would be otherwise a morally repugnant view against an outsider.

Pity the people who are being bombarded with "experts on Islam" like "Mad Mel" Phillips, Bawer, Douglas Murray in the UK and druggie Limbaugh in the US with cookoo Coulter (the witches of 9/11) whose sole motivation is getting on the best sellers list and making a few bucks, and being paraded on conservative, right-wing talk show (mostly Murdoch and Clear Channel owned).

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 4, 2006 7:49:49 PM PDT
Sean says:
You don't have to listen to what "experts" say about Islam.

* Look at recent events in North Africa, Asia, and even Europe and you will see that as the percentage of Muslims increase in any society, violence and persecution of native religion and culture increases.

* Read the Koran and Hadith and you will see that Islam is a religion of Jihad and Dhimmitude, bent on world domination.

The only difference between Nazism and Islam is one is rooted in a fascist political ideology and the other is a fascist religious ideology.

James, are you Muslim or do you really not believe Islam is dangerous?

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 23, 2006 7:35:44 PM PDT
Mr. Burke says:
How can you possibly say that Islam is "already viewed with suspicion and hostility?" They are killing innocent people in the name of their religion in 50 countries and the West is afraid to even mention it. Imagine Nazi Germany, but with 50 countries instead of just 1. Islam is allowed to commit genocide, slavery, pedophilia, the enslavement of women, the destruction of culture, and the absurd revision of history without the West making peep about it. Like so many Liberals you think they are all bascially just like us. 80% of the elementary children in Palestine when asked what they want to be when they grow up say that they want to be suicide bombers ("martyrs".) Almost all the kids there want to be what? Firemen? Teachers? What was it? Oh, they want to be suicidal murderers so they can go to heaven.

Islam is fundamentally different. Yes, you are right, there many Muslims are not perfectly faithful to the Quran. Some do not kill the unbelievers wherever they find them, but tens of millions do or they want to or they support it financially or they teach their children to do it. All through history there have been people like you who defended to the very end, even in the face of overwhelming evidence the actions of groups like the Nazis, Communists, Maoists, Khmer Rouge, etc. After all, only a small percentage of each of those groups actually did the killing. Yep, they're just like us.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 10, 2006 8:17:03 AM PDT
>>Look at recent events in North Africa, Asia, and even Europe and you will see that as the percentage of Muslims increase in any society, violence and persecution of native religion and culture increases.

The racist claim of wherever "Muslims" go incrases crime is like saying whereever blacks go increases crime, like in Houston from New Orleans.

This statement is deceitful to its core and also irredemiably false. The Muslim population has been steadily increasing in America and what do we see? More Muslim doctors saving thousands of lives, Muslim cab drivers taking racists like you home everyday, Muslim business-owners creating jobs.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 10, 2006 8:23:02 AM PDT
>>Read the Koran and Hadith and you will see that Islam is a religion of Jihad and Dhimmitude, bent on world domination.

We have Islam-bashers who quote the Koran out of context and cut-paste the violent verses. I read the Koran and there are most violent-crazied verses in the Bible than you would find in the Koran. In fact, the Koran is pretty commands to free the slaves and forgive the transgressor "if you only knew the rewards God gives" for those acts. Where in the bible does it say to free slaves for your betterment?

And to compare Islam, a major world religion to the ideology of Nazism, is beyond arguing with a sane, knowledgeable person; its talking to an anti-Semite.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 10, 2006 8:45:40 AM PDT
>>How can you possibly say that Islam is "already viewed with suspicion and hostility?"

Just comments like yours.

>>They are killing innocent people in the name of their religion in 50 countries and the West is afraid to even mention it.

Who are "they" you are referring to? Muslims? So you gonna generalize? Well then if that's the case then Osama bin Laden is right to generalize that all Americans are evil and must be killed since they provide tax to the American Gov't who use it make bombs to kill innocent Muslims. Therefore 9/11 was just a minor blowback to the thousands killed by US-supported Israel, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Somalia, in Bosnia and Chechnya.

If generalization is ok, then it proves the inherent evilness and arrogance of American troops who must be fought because they tortured, sexually abused and killed proud Iraqi prisoners in Iraq after lying to invade their country.

>>Imagine Nazi Germany, but with 50 countries instead of just 1. Islam is allowed to commit genocide, slavery, pedophilia, the enslavement of women, the destruction of culture, and the absurd revision of history without the West making peep about it.

Here we go with Nazi Germany comparisons. Islam is the only religion in whose holy book where freeing slaves is said to be better than owning them. Talk about "genocide" nice catch phrases but I don't see Muslims coming to America, invading it on false premises, and bombing its cities like your pal Bush is doing in Iraq.

>>80% of the elementary children in Palestine when asked what they want to be when they grow up say that they want to be suicide bombers ("martyrs".) Almost all the kids there want to be what? Firemen?

Maybe you get your info. from Bawer's book but I wish you grew up in a Palestinian refugee camp and see the Israeli state terror unleashed upon you, your family, and your country. You're telling me you wouldn't be willing to die for your country and its independence? To defend freedom? If you can "support your troops" who are fighting half way around the world against a country that didn't attack us or had anything to do with terrorism other than it was Muslim, then surely you'd be the last person to understand why Palestinians would fight its actual occupier and oppressors to gain its legitimate freedom!

I don't know whether to laugh at your insanely made-up facts or get upset for your irredemiable hostility you have against Muslims.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 16, 2006 5:34:20 AM PDT
Information relating to Palestinian children being brainwashed into suicide bombers can be found in 'The Road to Martyrs'Square' by Oliver & Steinberg. Picture 70 in this text shows 'Children's Clubhouse' a PA funded children's show with a sweet 7 year old girl singing 'I'll turn into a suicide warrior in battledress'. So T.H. has a point there.

In relation to "While Europe Slept", Bawer can seem alarmist. However I believe one of his most valid points is that Islamicism (not Islam) is a threat to European values with its violence and intimidation backed intolerence, and nobody is raising an alarm. I believe that he has backed up these arguments sufficiently in the book.

In relation to your comments about British Muslims, in all fairness, the book does not really deal with that issue; it deals more with continental Europe.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 29, 2006 7:56:41 AM PST
A reader says:
James Oberwein, you say: "Talk about "genocide" nice catch phrases but I don't see Muslims coming to America, invading it on false premises, and bombing its cities like your pal Bush is doing in Iraq."

I remember a certain group of Muslims, lead by Mohammed Atta, who came to the United States on false pretenses (becoming students), used their freedom found in America to take flying lessons, then used that knowledge gained from trusting and open minded Americans to hijack American airplanes and used them as a bombs in NYC and Washington DC to kill over 1,000 innocent Americans- including Muslims.
I can still hear the recording of those hijackers chanting "Allahu Akbar" while they were killing these innocent people. The americans who committed atrocities in Iraq were not doing so in the name of God. They were irresponsible, cruel people -but not commiting a religous act.
"It is a profanation of religion to declare oneself a terrorist in the name of God, to do violence to others in his name. Terrorist violence is a contradiction of faith in God, the Creator of man, who cares for man and loves him."
Pope John Paul II

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 9, 2006 1:26:08 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 9, 2006 1:28:04 PM PST
E. Dibego says:
James, it is pointless to give humanistic, balanced arguments to people such as you are (s)wordfighting here. 'Tis dogma, fear and xenophobia, and these things are impervious to sound argument. Bawer's book just confirms and strengtens these people's fears and views. I wish argument was fruitful.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 22, 2006 9:56:12 AM PST
LGreene says:
James, you come across has having more than half a brain. But you blew your argument by assuming that people who post here are speaking of Muslims "in general." The real problem (not that you'll get it) is with Islamic Totalitarianism --which includes so-called Palestinians whose goal in life is to kill all Jews. America's goal should be to rid the world of Islamic Totalitarian regimes wherever they exist -- and there are many. If American and coalition forces entered Iraq with that major goal 4 years ago, we would have been out of there by now. Good grief, man. Are you blind?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 24, 2006 2:50:36 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 24, 2006 4:00:43 PM PST
Suet says:
Oberwein in his (third) post of Oct 10 appears to be saying that the US is guilty of slaughtering Muslims in SOMALIA, BOSNIA and CHECHNYA. There's no answer to that, only another question: what world is he living in?
As for Iraq and Afghanistan, it seems to have escaped his attention that the main people slaughtering Muslims there are other Muslims. Of course we (US and Britain) gave them the chance; to that extent we're responsible.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 4, 2007 4:29:01 AM PST
J. D. Evans says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Jan 4, 2007 4:33:02 AM PST
J. D. Evans says:
you should have entered a secular state 4 years ago with the aim of ending 'Islamic totalitarianism'.... your ignorance would be hilarious if it wasn't so standard.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 17, 2007 5:36:24 AM PST
Deutsch says:
Care to share, where you've got your data from? I hope, you can back this up with at least some sort of publicly available data. As I don't feel competent to speak about the US situation I'd like to qoute some European figures (mainly concerning the Netherlands and Germany). Germany faces a situation that about 6% of the male population under 25 have either Turkish or Arabic background and are considered Musilms. If we look at males under 25 with a criminal record this figure rises to a whopping 20%. Over the last 10 years these figures have grown apart with accelerated pace, the difference wasw considered statistically significant as soon as 1983 (earlier data not being readily available). Statistical data, made public by the city of Amsterdam indicate a direct correlation between 1: the percentage of people with migration background AND Muslim belief and
2: a sharp increase of crime rates
This increase becomes even sharper, if one confines data analysis to violent crime (from domestic violence issues to murder) or drug peddling which in the Netherlands means trafficing significant amounts of hard drugs, mainly cocaine (including crack) and heroin. One last remark: correlation the way this term is used in mathematices simply means that, when singleing them out, 2 figures move together. This is not neccessarily implying direct causality, but nevertheless hints of some (probably hidden) strong ties between those figures, this even more so if correlation remains fairly stable over time. Any further questions, Mr. Oberwein. Please note that this is not about racism but about data and what it can tell us. Simply ignoring this means adjusting reality to ones "moral" belief - let that remain the Muslim way to do things.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 17, 2007 5:43:00 AM PST
Deutsch says:
Fortunately the bible does not strive to install detailed control over a persons every day life, the Qu'ran very well does so. Neither does the bible claim to be the immutable word of god. Oh, btw, in which context would you like a verse commanding a man to beat his wife and keep himself from the martial bed, should she be disobeying his orders, like to be put?

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 17, 2007 8:34:01 AM PST
Deutsch says:
The new testament, the foundation of Christian religion, does not even include the slightest indication that it might be legal to own another person in the first place. Now compare that again to a blabla statement like "it would be better to free slaves.." which does not even incur any penalty if somebody would choose not to adhere.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 12, 2007 9:51:45 AM PST
Ric Rally says:
Deutsch-

Don't you know that you're not allowed to bring up FACTS (statistics) when discussing politically incorrect ideas? That is the same reason why crime and educational statistics can not be openly and honestly discussed, because feeling will be hurt.

Another good illuminating book to read is "Future Jihad," written by a Lebanese scholar, that discusses the history and strategies of the Islamists. We SHOULD be scared, since it seems no one in power seems to take this seriously, just like the illegal immigration problems in the US.

I have been to Amsterdam and other European/UK capitals, BTW; it's very sad what liberalism/multiculturalism has done to these great cities.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 12, 2007 9:59:18 AM PST
Ric Rally says:
I have to disagree with the statement "Neither does the bible claim to be the immutable word of god." The Bible states "All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2Tim3:16)

The difference is that only BELIEVERS are responsible for following the teachings. Non-believers are NOT, and nowhere is it even suggested that they should be.

I would be glad to discuss this further if you wish.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 6, 2007 2:51:45 AM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Mar 10, 2007 1:12:23 PM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on May 19, 2007 3:48:31 AM PDT
John Harllee says:
Deutsch, you are wrong. Paul's letter to Titus says (2:9): "Tell slaves to respect their masters' authority in everything ..." I am quoting from the New English Bible. The NIV Study Bible also uses the word "slaves" in this passage.

In reply to an earlier post on May 19, 2007 3:52:20 AM PDT
John Harllee says:
Deutsch, you claim that "Fortunately the bible does not strive to install detailed control over a persons every day life..." Please go read Leviticus and you will see you are quite wrong.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 3, 2007 10:03:35 PM PDT
haven't y'all gotten away from the origional point of the book? i bought it because i thought it'd be fun to read about how someone who thought america sucked found out europe wasn't any better. i'm only half-way through the book,(i only got it yesterday, give me a break, eh?) but it seems to me the real point of the book is that us americans can accept new folks and ideas, and europe can't. you all talk about the bible and the koran like yer preachers or something, but not a one of you admits to being directly involved with either religion. this isn't really about that though, it's about society and culture. while driven by religion in some cases, the religion does not, and should not, define the society. what do we want at the end of the day? a society driven by greedy politicians who don't listen to us, or a culture driven by imams who control every aspect of our life? at least the politicians don't make me pray three times a day, or condone murder and mutilation.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 4, 2007 1:42:14 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 4, 2007 1:44:08 PM PDT
PRCalDude says:
Actually, James, Islam and Shari'ah are inseparable, so there is inherent conflict between English common law and Islam. You can't be fully a Muslim and fully British at the same time.

As far as sweeping generalizations about Islam, I think you'll find Surah's 9:5 and 9:29 sum up the essence of the concerns of we infidels.

Don't be surprised when you're head is the first on the chopping block if they take over. Just look what happened in Nigeria in 2000, or any of the other half-Muslim half-infidel countries with an increasing Islamic demographic.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 22, 2007 1:25:06 PM PDT
D. Moore says:
I guess at this point the only thin left to say to people who hold the opinions you do is: Please dude, cut the crap.

Progressives ought to ask themselves the following: why would a religion that is a "total way of life" derived from "the seal of the prophets" who delivered "an Arabic book" that is regarded as "the word of Allah, not his Messenger," but which enjoin every Muslim to follow this messenger to the extent that Every Single Act in Life is either permissible, good, not encouraged but not punished, or prohibited, and above all a religion that regards "innovation" as "fiqh" (strife) - why would a religion like this comport with the crypto-Christian moralisms of 18th and 19th century anti-clerical revolutionaries in France and Germany (i.e. yours)?

The fact that liberals seem to have entirely abandoned their minds to hatred of "the right" - an analogical term without any meaningful historical significance other than because of the fact that so many people repeat it - and that so many criticisms of Bawer's book are based on the fact that the author's conclusions and comments don't square with the progressive audience's ideology give little hope that those of the progressive mindset are Capable of performing the act of historical imagination required to truly understand the consequences of the previous paragraph's claims. Until you Are capable of doing so - perhaps if Hillary becomes president, you big babies? - you should absent yourselves from the conversation. Like it or not, we are meeting stark raving bigotry in a form that may well have descended from the Borg Mothership, and the fact is our native "bigotries," as you and your comrades describe them, are a better weapon in our defense and Your defense than your silly sophistries.
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Initial post:  Aug 27, 2006
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