Customer Reviews

Beyond Discipline: From Compliance to Community

5 star:		(9)
4 star:		(7)
3 star:		(4)
2 star:		(6)
1 star:		(1)

 

 

To the reviewer who said Kohn has no experience: He was a teacher for several years. Secondary to be specific. He travels the country observing classrooms. This book was written in response to a)his own experience b)exhaustive research but mostly c)to answer the question of why certain classrooms he observed seemed to have "better" learners than others.

To reviewers who say there are no practical solutions within the book: True, with a huge but. Kohn says he does not want to give examples because there are no "right" answers. What he proposes is a philosophy, not a step by step process. He wants us to question our way of thinking. How can we question it if we are following Uncle Alfie's hand dandy instructions? To tell us what to do would undermine the whole premise of the book (telling is futile, doing and creating meaning are worthwhile). The "good" teacher, according to Kohn and this book, is one who is constantly questioning what is going on in their room and how it benefits the child. The "good" teacher is also one who believes the child should be worked with, not done to. When you think the ideas through, the "how"s should become clearer. He does give models, but I feel a book on more practicals would be helpful. People, unfortunately, want their hand held. Kohn should maybe reapply his thought of "addicted to rewards" with teachers who have always been told what to do and how to do it. But if he tells them what to do and they follow blindly, are they truly committed to it?

To reviewers who say he spends half of the book complaining: I would call it refuting at worst, getting us to question our current ways of thinking at best. I somewhat agree with the one reviewer who says Kohn sounds like a broken record. Yes, he has written the same thing before. But look at the educational world? Has it changed much? Suffice it to say, if you've read Punished By Rewards, this one is a good addition to it. Do not go to this book looking for a lot of grand revelations if you have read PbR or a substantial amount of his articles.

To reviewers who claim this book is a godsend: Welcome to the world of Alfie Kohn. Applying the ideas are not simple becuase the kids will "fight" it at first. I believe the words he uses are that it's like coming into a bright room after being in the dark. This is the truth. I am struggling with implementing the ideas.

Lastly, heed his warning: Freedom to choose without structure is chaos (my own words, but interpreted from the book). Structure is necessary. Just question what structures are necessary. Always remember, the kids want to learn. Let them. It has succeeded and will continue to succeed. Get support. Do not lose faith.

The subtitle captures well the thrust of the book. Alfie Kohn continues to ask probing questions to challenge our assumptions and beliefs and prods us to see things from the child's perspective. Instead of being concerned with classroom management and control--getting children to do what we want, we should first ask, "What do children need?," and "How can we meet those needs?". Very often discipline problems arise, not, as it is commonly believed, out of the students' personal problems or the need for attention or power. Rather it is just because the adults' demands may be unreasonable, or the curriculum may be irrelevant. "When students are 'off task', our first response should be to ask, 'What's the task?'" (p.19). Coercion, use of punishment and rewards, any control measures are not achieving our common goals in fostering depth of understanding, independence of thinking, continuing motivation to learn and concern for others. Students should have their say, participate in making decisions, be given autonomy and responsibility. Students must feel cared about and be encouraged to care about others. Only caring relationships build community. Competition is the worst enemy. Suggestions on building community, solving problems together were given. Also answers to ten common objections. For educators who value democracy, this is a worhtwhile book.

I thoroughly enjoyed this book. It offered me insights into classroom discipline that I had never considered. The most powerful statement made in the book--in my opinion-- is that, instead of wondering how to make children behave differently, we should be asking ourselves what we are doing to make them behave the way they are. Too often I make decisions solely for the purpose of being the "boss". This book helped me to stop and think about why I want the children to behave a certain way. I had a very difficult class a few years ago, and I wish I would have read this book prior to that time. However, during the reading, a lot of that class's problems made more sense to me!

In Beyond Discipline: From Compliance to Community, Alfie Kohn presents cogent criticism of the common strategies teachers use to control student behavior: rewards and punishment. Kohn made me question whether I ought to use such tactics, and made me hunger for a better way -- something not involving an insistence on control and compliance. Unfortunately, Beyond Discipline created a hunger without really satisfying it.

Kohn is right about rewards and penalties carrying a terrible price tag. They are both forms of manipulation, and leave little room for children to make authentic choices about what or how they will learn. Moreover, it is undoubtedly better for children to be motivated intrinsically to act kindly toward others, rather than just doing it to get praise and rewards and to avoid punishments. Getting compliance, in short, isn't much of an achievement.

So, the next logical question is, if a teacher jettisons rewards, penalties, and insisting on compliance, what will she replace them with? Obviously, "doing nothing" or "letting the students do whatever they please" would be unacceptable. We have to replace rules and bribes and threats with something, but what?

Kohn claims that traditional discipline methods are founded on the assumption that children are selfish and sinister, "that children will act generously only when reinforced for doing so, that people are motivated exclusively by self-interest" (page 8). Indeed, this assumption may be held by many traditional discipline programs. However, I personally don't use rewards and penalties as a result of any such assumption. In fact, like Kohn, I believe that children have a natural tendency toward empathy and generally want to help others. I use rewards and punishments because of a different assumption: Children often don't know what's best for them. Responsible adults often need to tell children what to do, simply because children often lack proper judgment. Children aren't naturally cruel or selfish, but they do lack knowledge and maturity. Think about it: Given their choice, would most children eat nutritious meals three times a day, or junk food? Would most children study a wide variety of academic subjects (math, history, science, grammar, etc.,), or would they only study whatever suits their momentary fancy? Would most children wait until they were at an appropriate age and maturity level operate drive a car, or would they operate (potentially deadly) vehicles much too soon?

I have rules in my classroom because I know that children often lack the maturity and knowledge to make choices that will benefit them in the long term. So, I'm not quite sold on the idea of getting rid of rules for children set by responsible adults. The students may have some input in the formation of the class rules, but ultimately it's the responsible adult who knows what's best for the students' long-term benefit, so it's not unreasonable for the adult in the classroom to veto any class rules that would not meet the students' needs (rules that are too vague to be understood, too punitive, too permissive, etc.)

What would Kohn use to replace rewards and consequences? In a very simplified form, he would replace them with:

* making tasks and lessons meaningful and interesting to the students. This could reduce the need for rule enforcement, but by itself won't eliminate it. Some students, some of the time, will still persist in infringing on others' right to learn or be safe.

* giving the students more choices about matters that affect them. I do agree with the idea of giving the students numerous choices throughout the school day. However, this doesn't mean that a teacher should allow students to decide what the curriculum will be (e.g., should we allow children to completely avoid math because they don't like it?), or what an acceptable noise level will be, or whether their work should be assessed, or whether they should be allowed to use put-downs and cuss words, etc.

* class meetings. But if, in the midst of a lesson, a student infringes on another student's right to learn or be safe... are we supposed to stop the lesson and solve this with a class meeting? What if the student persists in such behavior? More class meetings, I suppose? Class meetings can be a useful tool for certain purposes, but I don't imagine that they would dissuade persistently distracting or aggressive students. Furthermore, what if the students, during class meetings, make decisions that are likely to lead to chaos? They might decide that they should be allowed to shout out whenever they please, or run around the classroom whenever they please, or choose not to clean up the classroom, etc. Responding with, "Well, let's give it a try - and then let's check back in a day or two to see how it's working" (page 98) isn't much of a solution. Like it or not, there are just some basic rules of behavior that are non-negotiable and must sometimes be forced upon students. Kohn practically (and very regretfully) admits it himself: "If a student persists in disrupting a class meeting, even after repeated reminders that he isn't being fair to everyone else, the teacher may decide to ask him to leave until he is ready to stop acting that way" (page 128). But wouldn't exile be one of the most punitive things a teacher can do to a student?

* trying to build a sense of "community" among the students and adults. Kohn paints a nice picture of people getting along in harmony, with lots of class meetings and a heavy focus on empathy and interdependence. But how would an actual teacher in an actual modern classroom address a student (or students) who persists in violating the rights of other people? We know what Kohn wouldn't want teachers to do in such a situation, but exactly what would he have us do?

In the final chapter of the book, Kohn finds a nifty way to avoid answering such a question: "[T]here is reason to be deeply suspicious of this kind of advice [i.e., specific prescriptions]. It's disrespectful to teachers when someone proposes to replace their judgment with a packaged response" (page 122). That's quite a convenient time for Kohn to be so "respectful" of teachers' judgment, especially after spending the first half of the book calling their judgment into question. And: "The infinite number of possible problems [and circumstances] make it impossible for a responsible author or consultant to offer anything more than general guidelines or considerations to keep in mind" (page 122). So, I suppose a teacher should try to keep those "general guidelines" in mind while a student continues to violate the rights of others...

Ultimately, Kohn's point of departure is the premise that a teacher should not take away a child's freedom unless it's absolutely necessary. I don't disagree with that. However, I have another -- perhaps equally important -- premise: No child has the right to infringe on the rights of others. And this means that sometimes a teacher will find it necessary to limit a child's freedom. I suppose this is what we would call a "necessary evil." Is there a better way? Beyond Discipline serves up some powerful questions... then leaves us starving for answers.

David Moadel, Boca Raton, FL

I read this book while researching my topic for my MA thesis in elementary education. This book blew me away. It's provocative, it's funny and it challenges so many of the unnecessarily cruel and transparently manipulatie behaviors we use as teachers on a daily basis. While I agree that the book doesn't offer a paint by the numbers how to guide for implementing a more democratic and community based classroom, the intelligent reader can understand what needs to be done or at least look elsewhere for answers.

This book inspired me allow me third grade students to throw out some of the old classroom rules and create new guidelines that they brainstormed, justified and ultimately settled on with me only acting as facilitator. It worked amazingly well and they really came up with some responsible guidelines for class behavior (although I gotta admit I was really holding my breath that they'd try to create some crazy stuff). At first I needed to remind them of these policies THEY CREATED but gradually they began to remind one another and there's been noticeable improvement. They own these new policies and have shown they can think critically and take charge.

Best book I've ever read in education, hands down.

I found the book,Beyond Discipline, to be very insightful. Yes Alfie Kohn criticizes all other methods but I think hearing the criticisms helps one to understand the constructive points that follow. I feel his criticisms are intended to make educators evaluate the accepted methods of discipline from a different viewpoint - that of the children.

First, Alfie Kohn is a former teacher, to answer a previous reviewer who said he wasn't.

As I begin my fourth year of teaching, I have tried so many of the behavior-management methods. And as I look back on my teaching, I had the least behavior problems when my class was having fun and I was tailoring lessons to meet their interest. Whenever I decided to take a more traditional, back-to-basics approach, I found the class to be visibly more miserable with an increase in behavior problems.

Alfie Kohn's book makes us take a reflective look at our teaching rather than blaming everything on the children. It challenges us to use the children as co-problem solvers and relinquish some control in the classroom.

After a difficult past year, I realized that marble jars, funny money, class stores, tickets, and even behavior awards were simply bribing children, pitting them against each other, and creating a "What am I going to get for this?" mentality. I told myself that I wouldn't do it again this year.

I feel so fortunate to have read this book before the beginning of school. This book reminds me why I wanted to become a teacher.

I am a graduate student in elementary ed, and received a portion of this book as part of a class lesson (the reason for the 4 stars as I haven't read the whole book). This is new material to me but I was truly shocked at what some of these "discipline" programs are teaching people. Isn't it just common sense that we don't treat (or abuse in my opinion) children in the fashion of Rudolf Dreikurs "STEP" program, where part of their philosophy states "Kids have reasons for misbehaving and the idea is not to give them what they want" or in "Cooperative Discipline", where children are "held accountable" for their actions and teachers therefore punish or blame them (the easy way out), rather than look deeper at the child to try and discover the root of the behavior, as Mr. Kohn states?
Please, if you value this book at all (even if you think Kohn whines a bit), take a look at some other books and articles related to the subject, such as:
-"In Search of Understanding: The Case for Constructivist Classrooms", by JG Brooks and MG Brooks, 1993, 1999
-"Punished by Rewards" by Alfie Kohn, 1993

I have also read many articles on HOME discipline by Alice Miller, Stan Dale, and Aletha Solter dealing with issues of spanking and time-out which I highly recommend.

This book is not meant to be an attack on all teachers that everything you are doing is wrong. It suggests that teachers constantly look at their curriculum and the way you teach children, and open yourselves up to the idea that YOU need to change in order to improve your classroom, and not to automatically blame the child/children.

When I first started reading Alfie Kohn's book "Beyond Discipline" I thought it would be just another book about discipline. It turned out to be pretty good. Although he was negative toward the other methods of discipline, he did a good job explaining why he felt that those methods were not the correct way in dealing with children. I think we all, sometime in our life, have punished children for doing wrong, and rewarded them for being good. The way he explained why those methods, as well as others he listed, helped me open my eyes to see his point of view. I always thought those were good methods to use, but when he talked about building a community I seemed to like that idea better. I don't believe that method will work in every classroom because each classroom & child is different. However, it would be nice if it could work in every school; would have less problems. The part about the book that will always stick with me is where he is talking about how we need to look at our own actions to see why children are misbehaving or having problems. Kohn stated, " Label a particular child a troublemaker and watch him become one." I am not saying this book has all the answers when it comes to discipline, but it does make some interesting points. Everyone can learn something from this if they keep an open mind....it's not just for teachers.

I thoroughly enjoyed Alfie Kohn's book. It was a refreshing look at creating a democratic classroom where students are engaged, empowered, and respected. It will definitely influence how I behave in the classroom in the fall. It has led me to explore his other views and books on education and on parenting which I am currently reading.