Customer Reviews

Foundation's Triumph (Second Foundation Trilogy)

5 star:		(16)
4 star:		(15)
3 star:		(11)
2 star:		(8)
1 star:		(3)

 

 

First, I believe that the Foundation novels by Isaac Asimov are one of the best novel series in all of modern SF.

Second, I liked the later Foundation novels by Asimov almost as much as I liked the orginal three novels.

Third, I didn't like Gregory Benford's first novel expanding into Foundation terrotory. I did like Greg Bears second novel of this newer Foundation series. And I like this treatment by Brin the best of the new series of Foundation material.

Now... It really isn't the good Doctor's writing style. But then, the Good Doctor had that styleless style that never gets in the way of the Story. But, Brin has one of the better writing styles in modern SF/F. Which makes this very much worth reading. It is pretty much required that you have read both Benford's and Bear's books in the series first. But then, that is why it is called a "series".

Not as good as Bear's effort in this series but light years ahead of Benford's attrocious book, Brin actually does too neat a job trying to tie everything together. At the same time, he deliberately throws out a few loose ends on the outside chance someone wants to use them later on in the series.

What really makes this book not so good is the fact that the reader must engage in a huge amount of "willing sense of disbelief" when it comes to an 80 year old scientist trapsing around the galaxy one last time. And there are simply too many pat plot devices to get around this plain fact. Plus, we're now expected to believe that mankind's 12K years of lassitude was once again brought about by massive behind the scenes efforts of robots.

At the same time, Brin does an excellent job of exploring the entire "robot sect" theory--that in itself makes the book a worthwhile read.

Like many of the other reviewers, I hope that we've now explored Hari Seldon's life for the absolute last time. The whole Foundation Universe would have been better off with less detail about Seldon's "adventures" and more work on other interesting aspects of the story.

Is this book worth purchasing? Not in hard copy it isn't. Go to your library. If you want all the Foundation/Robot books on one shelf, wait for the paperback version.

I am surprised that others think that Brin's book is better than Bear's book. Is this because it is the most recent or because it attempts to answer so many questions ? Benford's book did not add anything useful to the Foundation story (I HATE the pans, sims, memes, wormholes, etc). Bear's book expanded on the "Epilogue" of "Forward the Foundation" (which I assume that Asimov intended to do). I think that the plot and the characters are best in "Foundation and Chaos".

"Foundation's Triumph" spends a lot of time referencing things from other Foundation books and attempting to add insight into things that we already know. The main plot is that the Daneel robots want Hari to give the robots permission to destroy the ships that were used to teraform the planets 20,000 year ago, and the anti-Daneel robots (and cyborgs) want Hari to go 500 years in the future to judge the things that Daneel plans to do. It ties in "I, Robot", "Caliban", "Pebble in the Sky", "Blind Alley", and many of the other Foundation books.

Unfortunately, the pans, sims, and wormholes are also in the story, although not as heavily as in "Foundation's Fear". But, unfortunately it does introduce cyborgs, and fountain-of-youth-machines.

The story makes Daneel sound like a god. He created the Empire, and the class structure. He used genetic engineering to make Hari a genius and to introduce mentalic people. He developed persuasion satellites and brain fever to keep humans from creating robots and to fight the chaos plague. A wave of robot terraforming ships secretly prepared the planets for the colonists (and may have killed other life in process). Daneel setup the pan immersion assassination attempt (Foundation's Fear) to test Hari for the roll of First Minister. Daneel plans to find (or rather create genetically) a human 500 years in the future who is always right to judge Gaia 500 year before "Foundation's Edge".

The biggest thing that I could not swallow is that chaos is a virus developed by Earth. It also says that the Empire death can be stopped, but it needs to occur so that the bureaucracy dies. What ?

I do like the fact that the book indirectly states that Gaia does not take over in it pure form since the Encyclopedia Galactica quotes are from 1054 F.E. and Hari and Daneel agree that there will be no need for the Encyclopedia if Galaxia occurs in it's pure form.

It leaves room for a future book when two characters go to the future via the time warp on Earth.

The book introduces some interesting ideas, and the plot has a lot of twists and turns. But, overall I do not think that it is as good as Bear or Asimov (Of course it is better than Benford). Only Bear captured the spirit of Asimov in my opinion.

If you're a fan of Asimov's "Foundation" series, you may want to read the subseries about the Second Foundation as a kind of penitential chore. It was a sure-fire marketing ploy, but I think it will soon be forgotten, if it hasn't been already.

David Brin starts _Foundation's Triumph_ with a certain amount of enthusiasm, but it eventually flags; he seems to realize he's stuck to a Tar Baby. And like Bre'r Fox, he gets entangled in contrivances that become all the more implausible and convoluted the more he tries to extricate himself.

It was a big mistake to tie in almost all of Asimov's galactic novels; the story loses its own dynamic and becomes a kind of -- pardon the expression -- encyclopedic encomium. For example, it was quite gratuitous to rewrite completely Joseph Schwartz's adventure from _Pebble in the Sky_. Recasting it as part of Daneel's omnipresent string-pulling ill serves the humble hero of Asimov's original novel.

To be fair, Brin struggles mightily with the issues inherent in Asimov's creation. For example, why are the two Foundations necessarily a good thing? How can Seldon's "psychohistory" be more than a political platform in the face of naturally chaotic events? What are the social and psychological implications of telepathy? How can the gap be bridged between morality and Asimov's "Three Laws of Robotics"? Brin is on the right track in having his characters wrestle with such issues. However, while they humanize the problems, they do little more than restate them. He might have had some success if he had recast the story in a more economical format.

What, then, is Foundation's "triumph"? It's hard to tell. At the end, Hari Seldon wagers with humanity's éminence grise par excellence, R. Daneel Olivaw, that his two Foundations are not foredoomed to irrelevance. Rather, they will continue to foster individuality even after humanity has plugged into Daneel's "Galaxia," a kind of cosmic "mentalic" Internet. At least that expands a bit on Asimov's "Galactic Spirit," which was originally a throw-away concept exploited briefly and a bit cynically in _Foundation_. Can one define a potboiler, then, as a battle of irrelevancies?

Brin explains in an afterword that he leaves a lot of loose ends to be followed up. Take my advice. Don't!

The Second Foundation Trilogy is a total disgrace to Asimov. It offers nothing new and builds on the ridiculous Gaia concept, which I think is full of new-age pretensions and stubborn ambitions to be perfect. Brin tries desperately to redeem this shameful trilogy but turns it into an allegory about Communism and democracy, stuff that's so cliched already in sci-fi literature, and turns abstractions like chaos into a virulent disease, which I think is totally preposterous. Don't waste your time with this, read the original trilogy again. Giving it one star is being over-generous.

I was expecting a continuation of the events that occurred in Asimov's "Foundation and Earth". I was eager to see how Gaia factored into the situation. Instead, I got more about Hari Seldon. This isn't a bad thing, but the former would've been a better topic. Despite not having my Foundation hunger satisfied, I think David Brin did a decent job with the book. While I agree that the pans and the memes and whatnot brought in a non-Foundation element, Brin's explanation at the back of the book helped me to accept them. Of the three books, Brin's "action" style was the closest to Asimov's writing. However, the constant thinking on the part of the core characters kind of got annoying. Brin's Hari seemed to be dead on, but the "new" Dors was frustrating. And having read the Robot series, Brin's Daneel seemed a little too human. Overall, however, I found it hard to put the book down. Brin kept me riveted despite the drawbacks and in the long run, that's what matters.

I enjoyed reading all three books in this "second trilogy", but after reading each of them, I felt a mounting disappointment that culminated just after finishing the last book.

First, I'm disappointed how Dors and Lodovic were used, perhaps I should say not used.

Second, I'm disappointed how the author kept bringing in still more dissident robot groups. Talk about Deus ex machina! Got a plot problem, bring in another group! The only behind the scenes group that's missing is the fabled tri-lateral commission.

Third, I am disapointed at all the loose ends and hints for plot ideas to come.

Finally, I'm disappointed how absolutely nothing ever happens through the strength of the individual or even, God forbid [and there's a word you won't find anywhere in this book] by chance. Everything happens due to behind the scenes machinations by Daneel or some other group. These books are the polar extreme opposites to anything by Stephen Donaldson---who celebrates the strength of the individual.

I realize that Asimov was the one who decided to combine the Robots and Empire books and he did it well. I can't say the same for the killer B's continuation. The second trilogy books are like desserts that taste good but leave you feeling empty.

Book One of this series was lousy. Book Two was decent. Book Three was the final one in the series, which is probably the best thing that can be said about it. I feel that the writers' goal in getting involved with this project, other than making money, was to attract Asimov fans to read their other works. In my case, at least, they have failed. If there is anything that can break a deeply-ingrained habit of finishing a series once it is started, this series is it. There are some decent moments in this book, but it is confusing and filled with pointless activity that ultimately accomplishes very little. I gave it 2 stars only because it does tie everything together and because of the timeline in the appendix. I checked this book out from the Library. I absolutely cannot recommend that anyone pay hardcover prices for this one.

It's 2008, and I've finally read the second Foundation triolgy, written by other people after Asimov's death. The first two books in the sequence were very promising - but then I splatted up against this book.

Let me start with a definition of evil - the violation of another person's will. Given that, this book transforms R. Daneel Olivaw from the benign, even benevolent, guardian of humanity Asimov designed him to be into an evil despot beside which Khan, Stalin, Hitler, and CheneyBush pale in comparison.

I was sick to my stomach halfway through, and gave up at about the 2/3 point, because I just couldn't stand the perversion that Brin had turned Daneel into. The wierd thing is, nearly everyone here seems to agree that what Daneel did in this book was the "right" thing.

No wonder we're OK with invading Iraq, and destroying the Bill of Rights, and all the other horrors being inflicted on our society at present. Evil has become as banal here and now as it was in Germany in the '30s and '40s.

I have to wonder what Asimov would have thought of what's been done, both to his heroic robot and to this country.

Galaxy wide conspiracy by robots!? Robots falling in love!? People on Earth!? Earth is actually livable!? Chaos is a disease!? Galaxy wide amnesia also a disease!? And much more ridiculus ideas...

This book is too much for one single book. Too much is packed together; some events are so absurd - I have no words. A lot of Asimov's ideas were broken. In Foundation and Earth, the Earth was uninhabitable and was a shining ball of radiation where even robots couldn't go. In Foundation's Triumph - half the book's events takes place on Earth.

David Brin really got out of hand in this book. My suggestion would be to invent whole new Galaxy and take away all of Asimov's ideas. This book is not a continuation of Foundation, its, rather, whole separate novel based, or maybe cheated, on Foundation.

While the book has somewhat boring beginning, it gets funnier as it reads on. Not too complicated and it has some quite nice descriptions. It is easy to grasp the idea.

Whatever was the idea of David Brinn, it was lost on myriad of useless mysteries and endless plots. Read if you want, although it would be waste of time.