Customer Reviews

The Great Apostasy

5 star:		(7)
4 star:		(4)
3 star:		(0)
2 star:		(1)
1 star:		(2)

 

 

Elder James E. Talmage makes a survey of the Latter-day Saint view of the Great Apostasy. Many, in fact all western churches recognize that there was a falling-away from what Jesus Christ taught. The idea of an apostasy was the basis for the Protestant Reformation. Luther recognized that something was not quite right with the Universal Church, so his attempts at reformation indicate that the church had been changed from its original character. And the Roman Catholic Counter-Reformation is a tacit compliment and tacit consent to the notion of a falling away. The Great Schism (AD 1054) shows that the Eastern and western Churches thought that the other branch had become corrupt. By the way, the Koran mentions that some of the Christian practices, such as adoration of Mary (Surah 5:116, 9:31), and the resurrection (Surah 4:157), and Jesus’ divine nature (Surah 5:72, 6:101) were wrong, so Mohammed may in fact be the first Reformer!

Soren Kierkegaard said, “O Luther, you had 95 theses . . . The matter is far more terrible—there is only one thesis. The Christianity of the New Testament does not exist at all. Here there is nothing to reform.” (The Essential Kierkegaard, 428) Furthermore, Mr. K always laments that he is one without authority to be a preacher, although he does it anyways, calling himself a poet instead of an apostle. (The Essential Kierkegaard, p. 84, 267-68, 385, 450, 454)

So, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not a lone voice, but part of a chorus.

In this book, Elder Talmage covers the external and the internal causes of the falling away from the Church and Gospel that Jesus Christ established. External causes are the Jewish persecution and the Pagan persecution, and internal causes being the inclusion of worldly philosophies in the doctrines, the change in the sacraments (ordinances) of the Church, and the change in church government and organization. He then brings us through the Apostasy to the Restoration in the 1800’s by Joseph Smith.

Elder Talmage uses his rather sesquipedalian style keeps you going for the dictionary, and can, at times, be a thick steak to chew on. However, the book has slim chapters, and is well organized, so you can get back on track quickly. The only complaint I would have is that it would be nice to have some illustrations and pictures.

As I said, this is nothing new, since all Christian denominations believe that something happened to the Church between the end of the Book of Revelation and now. The pressing question, however, is not “Did it happen?” but “What are we now to do?” Elder Talmage expresses his faith—and mine also—that there needed to be a restoration of everything that was lost, and that Joseph Smith was called to be the prophet that resorted Christ’s Church. “New wine in old bottles . . .”

As with all books, you need to read it to understand it.

I thoroughly enjoyed this small volume - an quick read and very logically laid out.

It does required a belief in modern scripture and revelation - The Book of Mormon is referenced as much as The Bible and several other well-respected books written regarding ancient prophets, Christ's life time and the Dark Ages.

It is wonderfully written. I highly recommend it.

All personal religious feelings aside, this is an interesting look at the early catholic church. Several reviewers have condemmed it as purely anti-Catholic rhetoric. The author makes a point in the book to say that it is a history of the corrupt nature of the Catholic church in the past, not a judgement on the present Catholic church. Differences obviously remain between Catholics and Mormons, but the Catholic church has come a long way from the history presented in the book.

Everyone agrees that the Pope these days is a gnarly guy and that the Catholic church is a wonderful organization now that they're not torturing and burning folks. This history points out that the Pope's of old weren't quite so gnarly; orgies in the Vatican, murder, bribery, etc.

The author cites work mainly from prominent non LDS historians so the only argument someone can really have is how the history is presented, ah well. To a Mormon or Catholic (or anyone else for that matter), this book is pretty interesting. It's pretty deep reading though.

James Edward Talmage (1862-1933) was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) from 1911 until his death in 1933.

He writes in the Preface to this 1909 book, "The evidence of the decline and final extinction of the primitive Church among men is found in scriptural record, and in secular history. In the following pages the author has undertaken to present a summary of the most important of these evidences... The little work has been written in the hope that it may prove of service to our missionary elders in the field, to classes and quorum organizations engaged in the study of theological subjects at home, and to earnest investigators..."

Here are some quotations from the book (page numbers are from the 1994 176-page edition):

"In our study of the predictions of the apostasy as embodied in scripture and of the realization as attested by later history, we shall recognize two distinct phases or stages of the progressive falling away as follows: (1.) Apostasy FROM the Church; and (2.) The apostasy OF the Church." (Pg. 23)

"Persecution at most was but an indirect cause of the decline of Christianity and the perversion of the saving principles of the gospel of Christ. The greater and more immediate dangers threatening the Church must be sought within the body itself." (Pg. 84)

"From the number and diversity of the questions brought before the Nicene Council for adjudication, we may safely conclude that the newly enthroned Church was not characterized by unity of purpose nor harmony of action." (Pg. 105)

"A more infamous doctrine than that of the condemnation of un-baptized infants can scarcely be imagined, and a stronger proof of the heresies that had invaded and corrupted the early Church need not be sought. Such a doctrine is foreign to the gospel and to the Church of Christ, and its adoption as an essential tenet is proof of apostasy." (Pg. 119)

"Rome, so long the 'mistress of the world' in secular affairs, arrogated to herself a pre-eminence in church matters, and the bishop of Rome claimed supremacy. It is doubtless true that the church at Rome was organized by Peter and Paul..." (Pg. 132)

"(D)own to the beginning of the nineteenth century there was no church even claiming name or title as the Church of Christ. The only church existing at that time venturing to assert authority by succession was the Catholic Church, which as shown was wholly without priesthood or divine commission... If the 'Mother Church' be without divine authority or spiritual power, how can her children derive from her the right to officiate in the things of God?" (Pg. 158-159)

"The Roman Catholic Church is at least consistent in its claim that a line of succession in the priesthood has been maintained from the apostolic age to the present, though the claim is utterly untenable in the light of a rational interpretation of history." (Pg. 160)

Talmage, even recognized by Einstien for his intellect,respectfully reviews the history of religion after Christ'sresurrection and the consequent apostacy which began even during his life. As always, eloquently written. Wish this book would find its way into popular Mormon culture and push us to see Christianity through the ages.

This work traces Early Christian History from Christ through to the formation of the Catholic Church and eventually to the Restoration of the gospel to Joseph Smith. Explains why the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints professes to be the "only true and living church on the face of the earth". Wonderfully written and well reasoned.

One should be able to guess which category this book fits in.

In writing this review, I fear that some of my Mormon friends may feel that I am attacking them and their religion. This is not the case. I am attacking James Edward Talmage's 1909 work entitled The Great Apostasy; Considered in the Light of Scriptural and Secular History, and taking him to task for shoddy historical method, a general ignorance of his subject matter, and poor conclusions. I do not encourage you to try to defend him, for his work is seriously flawed in a multitude of ways.

After reading the introduction, I had high hopes for this work. Talmage starts off in the right spot, by stating, "if the alleged apostasy of the primitive church was not a reality, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not the divine institution its name proclaims." This is the crux of the entire work, but unfortunately, it rapidly spiraled down from there. After a short historical introduction, he goes on to make the wild assumption that the true church of Christ can only exist with legitimate priestly succession. I suspect that this topic (given the overall geographical generalities Talmage would go on to discuss) is not really about historical scholarship at all, but rather an attempt to invalidate the Roman Catholic Church's claim of apolostolic succession from St. Peter. This fails to account for the "priesthood of all believers" that may be from I Peter 2:9, but it also fails to demonstrate any believable parallels between the ancient church and what the LDS believe today. Talmage argues that since the Roman Catholic Church changed the means of the ordinances they are thus apostate. One could claim that he fails to take into account the changes to the Mormon ordinances, but that is not the issue here. The issue is simply that Talmage failed to create any plausible case of discontinuity between the early church and the later, better-sourced, post-Constantinian church. It also entirely fails to account for Jesus' emphasis on the spirit of the law. Where exactly does Jesus teach the need for proper priestly succession done according to ritual, Mr. Talmage?

Talmage then goes on to an inane discussion of Biblical prophecy. This section is a fine example of what happens when one chains up the scriptures and leads them around like tame beasts; they say whatever he wants them to say, despite flying in the face of context and academic reasoning. He uses Paul's warnings to the churches that the Gospel would be perverted to claim that this was some sort of prophecy that Paul had made, however, he nowhere is able to make any sort of link between the alleged perversion of the Gospel, and his own pre-conceived notions of a Great Apostasy. Another example is what he does with the seven churches in Anatolia in Revelation. Talmage claims that these were the last seven non-apostate churches (completely without evidence, as per usual). This really shows nothing other than a strong desire to make the evidence suit his preconceived conclusions, for even a superficial reading of Revelation will reveal that John's use of the number seven is a sign of completeness.

The next section discusses disputes in the church and its persecution. He claims that persecution killed the strong members of the church, forced the weak to flee, and put the unworthy in positions of honour. The problem with this thesis is quickly made manifold. Talmage is unable to back up his statement with any sort of evidence, which he isn't going to find due to the fact that most persecutions of Christians were localized (these are remarkable similar to persecutions of Jews in the middle ages; they were a visible minority, and while they generally made good neighbours there was still something subversive about them) and very half-hearted. Despite the lack of evidence for his previous thesis, Talmage doesn't seem to be concerned at all, and continues to push for this somehow representing his Great Apostasy. Dispute in the church apparently means apostasy for Talmage as well, but it shouldn't for any critical reader.

About halfway through the book, Talmage finally gets on to his criticism that Judaistic and Hellenistic ideas permeated the early church. It is true that various ideas crept into Christianity, but nowhere does Talmage demonstrate that they overrode the original message. He goes on to cite a highly-developed form of Gnosticism, but fails to account for the fact that the church viewed this as a heresy. One cannot argue that all of the Christian creeds were corrupt and abominable based on the fact there have been many splinter groups.

He blames the formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity on Neo-Platonism, but this also stumbles. He cites similarities between Neo-Platonist ideas and the opening few verses of the Gospel of John. It is certain that John was using Hellenistic concepts to illustrate Jesus' divinity here. There is nothing inherently wrong with this; Luke changes details in his Gospel all the time to make it more amenable to Gentile readers, and Paul adopts Hellenistic rhetoric to better reach his audience at the Aeropagus in Athens. What is wrong with this is Talmage's assumption that John is primarily Hellenistic, when in fact the noted Anglican scholar N.T. Wright has demonstrated that it has more in common with Sirach, an apocryphal Old Testament book than it does with Platonism. The second issue is that the Neo-Platonics did not yet exist in the form that he claims, since it wasn't created until the third century, whilst most scholars believe that John was written sometime around 90 A.D. The third and final problem here is that Talmage believes the doctrine of the Trinity to be a later creation. Technically, this isn't a huge flaw, for the doctrine of the Trinity itself emerged later, but he fails to account for the early church's predilection towards worshipping Jesus as God, not to mention the Trinitarian statements that were made by pre-definition Christians!

The final section reveals the same quality of research as the rest of the book. He lists off various crimes of the (apparently apostate) Catholic Church. We can all agree that these crimes were certainly not in the vein of what Jesus taught and set out to establish on Earth, and we should also be able to agree that this in itself means nothing. First, he only discusses the Catholic Church, and fails to discuss the others. Second, he provides no convincing [and usually just no] evidence that what Joseph Smith restored was ever taught by Jesus and lost in the early church. This last part is the ultimate crux of where he started; those teachings, ordinances and doctrines must have been lost in the first place in order for them to be restored, but Talmage cannot point to anything that suggested that what the Mormon Church teaches today is what Jesus taught. On that basis, this book is a miserable failure. The fact that the Deseret Book Company does not currently print this book emphasizes Auden's quote: "Some books are undeservedly forgotten; none are undeservedly remembered."

As for the edition itself, this reprint is quite awful. Since the text was OCR'd, it abounds with erroneous characters. It is never very clear where the chapters begin and end, and the notes run into the text. The index is also a hopeless mess. Considering the depth of research that this book has, combined with this being a rather awful edition, it is hopefully headed to literary oblivion.

I very much like the way Talmage wrote this book, gives you better understanding of how the Great Apostasy really happened. I would reccommend this to everyone, LDS and Non-LDS alike. I would also reccomend "Restoring the Ancient Church, Joseph Smith and ancient Christianity" very good book on the apostasy and the writings of Christians around the time Christ lived and the apostasy!!!

This book beautifully contrasts light and darkness similar to diamonds on a black felt pad. It is a very masterminded invitation to consider The Book of Mormon. God would know if he appeared to Joseph Smith, so ask Him. Put aside all family tradition, and make this reading personal between you and God. I did, and I am winning. Light always stirs up darkness, so if you are offended, maybe light is stirring you up?

Normally I would not rate a book at 1 star. However, for the inconsistencies and complete failure of this book to hit its mark, I that giving it anymore than 1 star would be too much. Early in the book, Talmage lays out his mission, to prove that there has been a total apostasy in the Christian church demanding the restoration of the gospel.

He falls upon the same problem throughout, as he too heavily relies upon two other authors in order to prove his hypothesis. Mosheim and Milne make up for what seems like over half of the citations in this book. Not only that, when these two historians are quoted, it is their opinions and not there use of factual evidence that is appealed to. The non-LDS reader is left feeling as though he should have just read these two books so often cited by Talmage.

The other major issue that plagues the author throughout this book is the fact that he often and obviously reads his presumptions and unavoidable conclusions into the "evidence" that he puts forth, and he manages to state these conclusions as though anyone in the world who did not find them tenable were completely illogical. This attitude gives the overall book a feeling of less than honest scholarship. Several instances in the book have Talmage applying a certain set of rules to the primitive church but not to the LDS. For example, Talmage claims that the persecution in the primitive church was the first step towards the total apostasy. He acknowledges that the same argument could be made against the LDS church which claims to, and historically has received persecution, however in this instance, he claims, it was shown that persecution can actually cause a church to grow stronger and more fruitful.

Let us get to the most striking problem of this book. Talmage makes a habit of contradicting himself throughout the text. We will examine two such instances. Early on in the first chapter the author makes the claim, and supports it by the opinions of other historians, that Christ was born into pacifistic era which allowed the ministers of Christ's Church to spread the message so effectively throughout the world. (pg 14) Later in the text, I believe it is page 38, Talmage makes the argument that NO ONE would deny that the persecution of Christ's Church beginning with its earthly founding by Christ and continuing through the total apostasy was one of the most violent and terrible persecutions ever experienced on earth. At this point, Talmage begins to sound like Dickens. It was a peaceful era making evangelizing easy, and it was a violent era full of persecution, making for the beginnings of apostasy. Which was it?

Another instance of this in the book, occurs when Talmage is making his argument for the Scriptural support that the apostasy had already begun. In this case, Talmage cites Paul telling Timothy that all those in Asia no longer heed his word. Clear sign that the Church is in apostasy right? Talmage argues this, and then ON THE NEXT PAGE, he writes of the Churches mentioned as receiving letters from John in Revelation as the only remaining Churches worthy of direct revelation from God. What Talmage fails to tell the reader is that these seven churches are the Seven Major Churches of Asia, the same region that Talmage has just explained is in general apostasy at the time.

Throughout the book, Talmage works to make a square peg fit into a round hole, and he seems to not even work that hard. The book comes off arrogant in its presumptions, inconsistent in its logic, and lacking in citations from the period Talmage is addressing. All in all this book is not worth the effort, it will soon be absent from my library.