Customer Reviews

High-Low-Split Poker, Seven-Card Stud and Omaha Eight-or-better for Advan (Advance Player)

5 star:		(4)
4 star:		(5)
3 star:		(1)
2 star:		(1)
1 star:		(3)

 

 

I originally bought this 'cause I've been playing seven-card stud and was curious about Stud/8, but reading the Omaha/8 section motivated me into learning it first.

I've read most of the relevant 2+2 Publishing poker books (and some of the irrelevant ones) and this seems fairly typical of the genre. They don't tend to give specific advice about specific hands, but describe strategy in more general terms and help players to start asking the right questions.

The Stud/8 half is more comprehensive than the Omaha/8 half, but I feel both sections give pretty decent introductions to their respective games. While they don't, for example, list specific starting hands (a common complaint) I didn't have any trouble figuring out what to play; the beginning chapter in each section goes into the this in sufficient detail. They're "for advanced players" but I didn't have any trouble understanding any of them, and I'm most definitely a fishy newbie when it comes to poker.

I really appreciate the "question and answer" sections. The questions serve as helpful reminders, which is exactly what they're supposed to be. If there's a question you don't understand, it's easy to hop back to the relevant section in the main text and read in more detail what he's talking about.

My biggest issue, and it's a common problem with most of the 2+2 books, is the lack of basic information like hand probabilities. I find this surprising because of the emphasis placed in their books (Sklansky's Theory of Poker et al) on probability math in general and issues such as pot odds. If you don't know how likely it is your hand will hold up or what the chances are of, say, hitting a flush, it's nearly impossible to determine if you're getting enough of a return to make a call/bet worthwhile.

In general I think their books could be much better, but I must admit they're currently the most rigorous introduction to poker play I've been able to find. If you're just starting out with Stud/8 or Omaha/8, or you're an intermediate player looking for ways to improve, I think Ray Zee's book will be useful. If you're hoping for a "gentle" introduction to these games you're in the wrong place--and you might want to rethink your poker career, because poker isn't and never will be all that easy to learn.

Other suggestions: Bob Ciaffone's Omaha book has a practical section on Omaha/8, and I believe the latest version goes into it in even more detail. He's an excellent writer and his books are well worth checking out.

You might also try Tenner and Krieger, but I wasn't that impressed. Cappeletti's Omaha book is a jumbled mess, it gives me a headache just to look at it. The SS/2 section isn't awful, but can be summed up as: "always draw to the nuts, play good starting hands".

"High-Low Split Poker" was, for most of it's existence, the *only* book out there on Omaha and hi/lo 7-card stud. When I started playing Omaha a few years ago, this was the only book I could find on the subject. I think that is why most people who are looking at it today, in the context of the burgeoning popularity of poker (particularly hold'em) and poker literature, are giving it mixed reviews. At the time the book was written, poker, and especially Omaha, were not nearly as popular as they are in 2004. Omaha is still dragging way behind hold'em as the most popular poker game in casinos mainly because it is a much slower game, is much more complex (in my view), and just isn't as 'sexy' as Texas hold'em. Could you imagine them making a movie like 'Rounders' centered on an Omaha game? No one would watch.

True, only half of this book is dedicated to Omaha, and Zee tries to cover a great deal of material in a small amount of space - which will inevitably lead to short cuts. But as a beginning Omaha book that leads the reader from the basics all the way to some advanced theory, this book has no rival. If you are serious about learning how to play Omaha, start with this book.

For those complaining that only half the book deals with Omaha, the reason hi/lo stud was lumped together with Omaha is because most people who start to play Omaha will find they also enjoy hi/lo stud if they give it a chance. Hi/lo stud is rarely found in casinos (at limits lower than $10/$20), but is very popular in home games due to its ability to keep players in the hand and make pots large -- allbeit usually split.

The upshot of this review: new books on Omaha are appearing frequently and some may be better than this one (I don't know, I haven't read them all yet), but this is where hi/lo theory all began and for that reason alone belongs on any serious Omaha player's bookcase.

This is the book which has been read by all the Pros. If you do not read it you are at a major disadvantage. In fact at the higher limits its impossible to play well without reading the section on starting hands.
O8 has so many naunces and the shorthand game is completely different from the regular game. Whilst the regular game can become very mechanical with discipline being the key criteria, the shorthanded game is a game of position and anticipation, bluffing (Do you call the bet at the river with A3 does he have A2? etc.) and guts. As your opponent keeps raising can you put him on a high hand or low hand?
With two big bets an hour its twice a profitable as Holdem at the same limits. However there is such a gap between the good and bad players that bad players do not last too long. Therefore the regular O8 games become a grind with the odd "fish" preventing the blinds from eating up everyone.
One weakness of the book is that a comprehensive set of odds tables are not given. For instance if you hold 3 low cards and 2 low cards flop that do not counterfeit your hand you have about a 60% chance of making a low hand by the river. The odds are important to compare to the pot odds & implied odds.

One benefit of the book is introducing you to Hilo 7 Stud. If you like O8 low from the aspect of two way pots you will want to learn Stud 7 Hilo which is useful as you will have two opportunities for a game instead of one. It also adds to and draws from your stud 7 poker knowledge.
Overall the book continues to be the best Hilo book for both games. (...)

The Omaha Eight or Better Section of this book is too basic. It lacks specific information on: post and preflop odds, table position, playing connectors, playing turn and river, percent of counterfeit occurances, drawing odds, pot odds and other valuable information that would be of interest to a serious player with a desire to improve their game. Very disappointing.

After reading the other books from Two Plus Two publishing by Sklansky & Malmuth, I was let down by this offering. I play both Stud 8/b and Omaha 8/b and I can't really say that this book helped me at all. Anyone who's logged any time at the tables knows the basics of live cards in Stud 8/b and drawing to the nuts in O8B. What I found especially irritating was the deceptive size of the book. Zee goes through the teaching sections and then says the EXACT same thing in the "Questions and Answers" section, giving the EXACT same answers. Considering how few good books there are on the subject of high-low poker, I thought surely an offering from Two Plus Two would be the definitive authority, but alas, buy this book and you'll be disappointed.

My main interest in buying this book was for information on Omaha high-low and overall I found this to be very disappointing. First, since the book is split between stud and omaha, I had little interest in the stud portion. Second, the information on Omaha was of a very general nature and not nearly as in-depth and specific as the Hold Em for Advanced Players by Sklansky. Why Omaha high-low didn't get its own book is beyond me, is it because the author just doesn't have that much strategy to share? That was my feeling and I ended up selling my copy through amazon marketplace. I've found more useful information on Omaha strategy at online websites than in this book.

The Stud Hi/Lo split section is very specific, and very enlightening. It is definitely a section that I would not want my opponents to read. Many specific situations are covered, and the logic behind the actions he recommends is clear. It's clearly superior to any advice I've previously read on the topic.

The Omaha section is only okay. The Super/System 2 section is better, and "Winning Omaha 8 or Better" by Mark Tenner is best. Ray Zee seems to just kind of pull percentages out of thin air when discussing Omaha/8 strategy (one section discussing redraws is just ridiculous), and kind of falls into the trap that pre-flop raising is just silly in O8. However, the advice isn't as fallacious as some that I've seen on the internet (i.e. Full Tilt's ridiculous propagation of Matusow's "live high cards" blunder)

Overall, totally worth the time, especially if you don't feel like tracking down a separate book on O8.

After a local tournament I had played in, I noticed a cash game started playing Omaha Hi/Lo. Naturally I played and had little success, barely managing to break even. I knew there was a way to beat this game so I ordered the book. Ray lays out a great basic strategy with tips for when to get in multi-way pots, when to play certain hands, etc. However, on the re-read, I found that a lot of the information was fuzzy; that is, it wasn't nearly specific or in-depth enough to carry you past the beginner or lower-intermediate level. The "For Advanced Players" tag is slightly misleading in that respect. However, it's a great book to get started.

Ray zee tells it like it is..omaha is a nut game..if you can't make the nuts get out..his system is great and has improved my playing 1000%

There are no good books out there on how to play Omaha 8 or better. The closest to good books are this one and Todd Brunsons section in SuperSystem. This covers enough to get you rolling and gives good principles on play, as opposed to specific advice.

Definitely worth getting if you're going to play split pot games.