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Initial post: Jan 26, 2007 4:47:17 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 26, 2007 4:52:54 PM PST
R Young says:
Mark Steyn was right when he warned us of the decline of Europe.

Check out Robert Spencer's article on the BBC Mosque series at this website:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=19157

http://www.humanevents.com/
article.php?id=19157

Cite posted in two parts because full url is trucated.

Here is some of what they were taped preaching about the 'religion of peace' in England:

* "Allah has created the woman-even if she gets a Ph.D.-deficient. Her intellect is incomplete, deficient. She may be suffering from hormones that will make her emotional. It takes two witnesses of a woman to equal the one witness of the man."

* "By the age of 10, it becomes an obligation on us to force her to wear hijab, and if she doesn't wear hijab, we hit her."

* "Men are in charge of women. Wherever he goes, she should follow him and she shouldn't be allowed leave the house without his permission."

about Britain and the Islamic state:

* "You have to live like a state within a state until you take over."

* "We want the laws of Islam to be practiced. We want to do away with the man-made laws."

So far, no British politician has seen fit to comment on practices such as these in UK mosques.

You can't say you weren't warned....again and again and again.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 26, 2007 7:47:40 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 26, 2007 7:49:03 PM PST
Jim Penname says:
I have read Steyn's book. It is both amusing and informative. Historical and right-up to the minute at the same time.
A lot of it is available online as his regular columns ( some of which appear to have been lengthened) and well worth reading on line if you don't want to spend the money.
For months after 9/11 many of us read night and day trying to find out what this was all about. Five years later it is all but inconceivable to me that many people either don't know or don't believe it, but that is the case.
I don't think that I am alone in finding that a frustrating turn of events.
Our fellow citiizens are so brainwashed by political correctness that they will tie their own nooses.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 28, 2007 2:13:44 AM PST
ThorBjorn says:
This is all a testament to the failings of "ultr-tolerant" liberalism.
Before I read Mr. Steyn's book, I had studied the effect of such ideology on the European mindset. As we all know, they have gone from hard-line nationalism...to complacent, apathetic pacifism. They don't even believe in their own national identities anymore.

Before I researched all the facts of socialism, the modern travesty which "liberalism" has become, and so-called "cultural-diversity", I thought it was all a "good idea". Long ago I realized that all these ideologies result in a people who are "ideologically castrated". The European is no longer self-sufficient, incapable of fending for himself. Worse yet, they lack the very WILL to do so. Mark Steyn is RIGHT!

"A liberal is a man too broad-minded to take his own side in a quarrel."
Robert Frost

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 28, 2007 9:40:15 PM PST
R Young says:
Mark Steyn confirmed to be right again; UK sliding into the Dark Ages:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;
jsessionid=RVAUEOSPEZFVRQFIQMFSFFWAVCBQ0IV0?
xml=/news/2007/01/29/nmuslims29.xml

I cut the URL into 3 parts so all of it would appear on the page. Sometimes parts are cut off when the comment is posted.

"Forty per cent of Muslims between the ages of 16 and 24 said they would prefer to live under sharia law in Britain, a legal system based on the teachings of the Koran."

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 29, 2007 1:30:47 AM PST
ThorBjorn says:
If there was ever a time for King Arthur to return...this would be that time! Somebody go find Excalibur!

I wonder what Winston Churchill, or Margaret Thatcher, would have to say about sharia-law in Britain?

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 29, 2007 6:16:06 AM PST
R Young says:
Churchill would be moving to America.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2007 6:16:37 AM PST
[Deleted by the author on Jan 30, 2007 6:20:21 AM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2007 6:21:34 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 30, 2007 8:02:58 AM PST
Muslims are 2.8% of the British population. The majority of those 2.8% do not support Sharia law - and did not do so even at the height of British-Muslim tension caused by recent British involvement in military invasions of Muslim countries. Of the Muslims in Britain who say they would like to see Sharia law, it is unclear what percentage of them would like to see a Reformist interpretation of Sharia law (Islamic legal theories that have produced a version of Islamic law more compatible with modernity) or a Wahhabist interpretation. These are not distinctions we can expect the Daily Telegraph to pay attention to, being as it is, a purveyor of prejudice for the know-nothing English lower-middle classes, and regarded as a national embarrassment by most educated Brits. Either way, the prospects of Sharia law being introduced in Britain are non-existent.

How Islamicists are going to establish an oppressive Muslim caliphate of global scope against the opposition of the industrial West and non-Muslim Asia -as well as the opposition of a majority of Muslims who see nothing very attractive in Wahhabism - has yet to be given a persuasive explanation.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2007 7:34:20 AM PST
R Young says:
Elite European Liberal,

It is safe to say that you are not a reliable source for information about Europe.

You assure us that the majority of muslims in the UK do not support sharia law, not even "at the height of British-Muslim tension caused by recent British involvement in military invasions of Muslim countries."

What balderdash! From one perspective, the most recent 'British-muslim tension' was not caused by British military involvement in muslim countries, but because some cartoonists in Denmark dared to publish cartoons of that psychopath muslims call a prophet.

From my perspective, however, the most recent 'British-muslim tension' was caused by muslims murdering a number of people on buses and subways and plotting to murder thousands on transatlantic flights. Oh yes! The preferred, politically correct, elite European liberal term for that type of 'British-muslim tension' is "Islamaphobia."

And, while it is apparently true that the responses of a majority of muslims to the recent poll about sharia were that they did not want it, what caught the headlines was the fact that "37% of 16 to 24-year-olds said they would prefer sharia law" This was 10% more than older muslims and seems to indicate a growing trend to radicalization among younger UK muslims.

Equally shocking, "nearly a third of 16 to 24-year-olds believed that those converting to another religion should be executed."

The fact is, some measure of sharia is already practiced in muslim communities in the UK and, particularly, France where some muslim communities are 'no go' zones for the police. The shocking rise of muslim gang rape of 'unchaste' girls and the emergence of muslim 'honor killings' throughout Europe are only the tip of the spear. Despite the claims of Elite European Liberal (who is probably a muslim himself, much more, and worse, is to come.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2007 7:36:44 AM PST
I repeat: How Islamicists are going to establish an oppressive Muslim caliphate of global scope against the opposition of the industrial West and non-Muslim Asia -as well as the opposition of a majority of Muslims who see nothing very attractive in Wahhabism - has yet to be given a persuasive explanation.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2007 7:52:22 AM PST
R Young says:
Elite European Liberal,

To return to another measure of the quality of your comments on Europe, I see that your claim that Europeans just love the euro is clearly wrong. Look at the results of this poll discussed in the Financial Times:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0dc53342-af08-11db-a446-0000779e2340.html
"More than two-thirds of the French, Italians and Spanish - and more than half of Germans - believe the single currency has had a "negative impact", according to an FT-Harris poll. In France, just 5 per cent said the euro has had a positive effect on the French economy."

I recall that you scoffed when I mentioned that the EU project was an undemocratic failure and that even the euro, which does have some practical benefits, was being questioned by French politicians. In fact, articles I linked in my previous posts showed that nearly every major French political figure, including Chirac, was expressing doubts about the euro.

As for the lack of democracy in the EU, two British lords explained their switch to the UKIP party with this set of reasons:

That the majority of our national law is now made in Brussels.

· That is law is proposed in secret by the unelected EU bureaucracy, the Commission. It is then negotiated in secret by the Committee Of Permanent Representatives from the Nation States (COREPER) and decided in secret by the Council of Ministers, where the UK is reduced to some 8 per cent of voting power. The resulting laws are then executed by the Commission having been confirmed, if necessary, by the Europhile EU Parliament and Luxembourg Court. The House of Commons and the House of Lord are irrelevant in this process.

· That our representative Parliamentary democracy has therefore become largely redundant; we have lost the power to govern ourselves. The central privilege of that democracy, for which millions have died over hundreds of years, is that the British people should have the right to elect and dismiss those who make their laws. This has been betrayed by our membership of the EU.

From The Telegraph, the EU does not keep honest accounts:

"Every public company in the EU must present its annual balance sheet according to strict rules, yet the EU itself produces accounts that break all the rules it imposes on everyone else. They don't use double-entry bookkeeping; tens of billions of euros float in and out of the books without explanation, and year after year the EU's Court of Auditors refuses to approve the accounts, because they are riddled with "material errors" and "irregularities".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/01/28/nbook28.xml

This has been an ongoing scandal for years.

The EU has become a gigantic, dictatorial, masterless bureaucracy with loads of money for which it apparently must not render accounts. Couple this with its universally spineless response to the dangers posed by the rise of radical Islam and it is easy to see that Mark Steyn was right: Europe is in danger of imploding and America, and Australia, will be left alone in the fight for the West.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2007 8:06:16 AM PST
R Young says:
European (Muslim) Liberal asks:

"How Islamicists are going to establish an oppressive Muslim caliphate of global scope...?"

Answer: They aren't going to create a caliphate. They are going to create Chaos. They are going to create Hell on Earth. These, at least, are the things that they have brought to the muslim communities in Malmo, and parts of Paris, Brussels and Amersterdam.

Come to think of it, things don't look too good in muslim operated countries like Pakistan, Yemen, Iran, Syria, etc., etc., etc.

If one were to make two lists, the first being the most miserably run countries on the planet, and the second being the muslim countries, the two lists would be essentially identical.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2007 8:13:34 AM PST
If the future of the Euro currency was in jeopardy there would be mass selling of euros as investors moved into currencies with a more secure future. The reverse is the case.

Every country in the EU is a democracy. When people talk about lack of democracy in the EU they are generally referring to the Commission.
I've gone through the accusations of lack of democracy in the EU before, but I suppose I'll need to do so again. So I'll restate a few facts about the Commission:
-It is unanimously appointed by the European Council, which is made up of the democratically elected leaders of all the countries of the EU.
-It is ratified by the democratically elected European parliament.
-The European parliament can remove the Commission whenever it wants (indeed, they have done so in the past).
-There is strict rotation of office.
-The Commission is subject to the rule of law, and can only do what it is permitted to under the European treaties.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2007 8:16:50 AM PST
Terrorism is not a major threat - far less of a threat than road accidents, earthquakes, typhoons, tsunamis and other natural disasters. Terrorism is like crime - an unfortunate fact of life. A hysterical response makes the problem worse - this hysterical response is caused by a cognitive bias in the human brain that causes us to pay more attention to terrorist disasters than to other types of disasters. A calm response - prosecuting the perpetrators through rule of law, and acting in ways that will reduce the support of ordinary people for the terrorists - is the way to handle it.
To treat terrorist attacks as "acts of war", as President Bush has famously done since 9/11, is the most counterproductive policy imaginable, at least if the objective is genuinely to prevent further terrorism, rather than to wage a never-ending "war on terror".

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2007 8:18:48 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 30, 2007 8:42:03 AM PST
R Young says:
Elite European (Muslim) Liberal,

You claimed that, "it is unclear what percentage of them would like to see a Reformist interpretation of Sharia law (Islamic legal theories that have produced a version of Islamic law more compatible with modernity)"

And you could not resist adding that "the know-nothing English lower-middle classes" could not be expected to understand such refinements in sharia law as the 'Reformist' types that you want us to believe UK based muslims prefer.

I think that the 'know-nothing' English middle class is not as stupid as you think. Certainly they are not as stupid as you seem to be. You seem to have missed the fact that the same poll discovered that "nearly a third of 16 to 24-year-olds believed that those converting to another religion should be executed."

Does 'reformist' sharia call for the murder of those who muslims who convert to another religion? If it does, it needs more reforms. If it does not, I think that you overlooked a major finding in the recent poll that the English middle class (for whom you have such contempt) saw and understood very clearly: muslim youth are drifting toward a harsh brand of fanatic sharia.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2007 8:24:18 AM PST
I stand by this assertion: the prospects of Sharia law being introduced in Britain are non-existent. This would be the case even if 100% of British Muslims wanted it - they are only 2.8% of the country's population. As even a majority of British Muslims do not want it, the prospects of it being introduced are zero.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2007 8:26:13 AM PST
R Young says:
Elite says,

"Terrorism is not a major threat."

Indeed, we know you think terrorism is not a major threat. You have previously compared it to a peanut allergy.

The thing is, in the UK I can avoid peanuts. It is harder to avoid muslims. Unfortunately, it is muslims (reformist or otherwise) who are behind most of the terrorism.

However, I will add that I do not think that terrorism is the major danger posed by Islam in the West. The greater danger is the destruction of Western values and the rot in the core supports for civilization that we see in the outskirts of Paris, and in Malmo, and Amsterdam, and Brussels, and so forth. Big explosions are bad, but the greater danger is Islamic rot from within.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2007 8:34:25 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 30, 2007 8:35:08 AM PST
R Young says:
You said:

"I stand by this assertion: the prospects of Sharia law being introduced in Britain are non-existent."

Wrong. It is already present to some degree in UK muslim communities. And, to some extent, it has already intruded on non-muslim Brits. It was recently learned that some UK schools had secretly been serving only halal food to students for the last few years. Some council housing is being built with toilets oriented in the correct direction toward Mecca. [Question: What is the correct direction? Butt toward Mecca or butt away from it? I have my preference.] And there is the timidity of much of the British press (and some of the US press) when presented with the opportunity of publishing the Mohammed cartoons. Free speech, even academic free speech, has been diminished because of Islam in the UK. And there have been other instances, which do not immediately come to mind, in which the non-muslim majority has had their lives and customs bent to accommodate sharia sourced customs.

You think the UK will never get sharia? It's already got it to some degree.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2007 8:39:34 AM PST
R Young says:
Prominent scholar, Bernard Lewis, warns of a muslim takeover of Europe:

"Islam could soon be the dominant force in a Europe which, in the name of political correctness, has abdicated the battle for cultural and religious control, Prof. Bernard Lewis, the world-renowned Middle Eastern and Islamic scholar, said on Sunday."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid
=1167467834546&pagename
=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2007 8:51:13 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 30, 2007 9:07:43 AM PST
I don't see how Muslims are going to takeover Europe. They are only 4% of the population of Europe. A majority of that 4% do not want to see Sharia law implemented. There is a great deal of scaremongering about the supposed existence of Sharia law in Europe. Nobody I know in Britain or anywhere else in the EU, seems think they are living under Sharia law, even if they believe that there are problems with a minority of Muslims. Maybe we Europeans are wrong. Maybe American right-wingers know better. But I don't think so.

In my opinion Western values are not under serious threat - there are more democracies now than ever before. From a global perspective, Enlightenment principles are becoming stonger not weaker. Globalisation is the vehicle that is spreading those values. There are, of course, those who would like to reverse all of this but they will fail. In fact, Islamic fanaticism is a doomed response to the successful spread of Enlightenment values, to modernity. The only future for Islam consists in accomodating itself to modernity, as most Muslims want to do. Muslims who do want to do so are condemning themselves to impoverishment and marginalisation. That is their choice.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2007 11:30:14 AM PST
R Young says:
Elite,

Perhaps if you actually read Mark Steyn's book you would understand what is going on.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2007 11:42:55 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 30, 2007 11:48:30 AM PST
R Young says:
MORE SHARIA IN THE UK.

According to this news item, prison toilets in the UK are being modified to suit muslim preferences.

http://www.thesun.co.uk
/article/0,,2-2006180300,00.html

"JAIL bosses are rebuilding toilets so Muslim inmates don't have to use them while facing Mecca.
Thousands of pounds of taxpayers money are being spent to ensure lags are not offended.
The Islamic religion prohibits Muslims from facing or turning their backs on the Kiblah - the direction of prayer - when they visit the lav."

Christian taxpayers are having to pay thousands of pounds to have toilets moved to satisfy muslim toilet preferences.

At least one of my earlier questions was answered by this article. The toilets have to be sideways with respect to Mecca. I imagine urinals have to be repositioned as well. Apparently one may neither urinate or crap in the direction of Mecca under sharia law.

This directive offends many Christians who would prefer to crap with butt facing (or directed) toward Mecca. What about our rights?

Who said Islam isn't taking over.

At least I will know what to do if I ever open a restaurant in London. All the toilets will aim at Mecca, and ham sandwiches and beer will always be on the menu at cost.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 31, 2007 5:59:53 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 31, 2007 6:17:21 AM PST
From the BBC:

The Home Office said two new toilet blocks are being installed as part of a refurbishment at Brixton jail in south London.
"Following consultation with faith leaders within the prison, various small adjustments were made to ensure the faith issues of all prisoners are taken into account."
The spokesperson added: "The money spent did not affect the overall cost of the refurbishment programme."

Small adjustments to two toilet blocks eh? The end of civilisation as we know it.

It's worth pausing to analyse all this more closely, and enumerate some of the fallacies and biases involved in the previous post:

First, it exploits Media Bias i.e. the media's bias for exceptional over the ordinary stories. This includes the practice whereby exceptional news may be overemphasised or distorted to boost commercial ratings. As a result, people end up with a distorted view of reality.
Second, it demonstrates Confirmation Bias i.e. the tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions about Sharia law being implemented in the UK.
Third, Misleading Vividness i.e. describing some occurrence in vivid detail, even if it is an exceptional occurrence, to convince someone that there is a general problem.
Fourth, Hasty Generalisation i.e. basing broad conclusions upon on small data sets and pretending they sufficiently represent the whole population or whole situation.
Fifth, exaggerating the influence of minority views i.e. taking what are believed to be the worst examples of "multiculturalism" and claiming they are representative.
Sixth, the Slippery Slope fallacy i.e. suggesting that an action will initiate a chain of events culminating in an undesirable event i.e. that slight adjustments to two toilet blocks in one prison will result in (or already have resulted in) the implementation of Sharia law in the UK.
Seventh, outgroup homogeneity bias i.e. individuals see members of their own group as being relatively more varied than members of other groups. So 1.3 billion Muslims are seen as more homogenous than, say, 300 million Americans.
Next, the clustering illusion i.e. the natural human tendency to see patterns where none exist e.g. the tendency to take stories about individual Muslims in Britain and falsely conclude that these stories are part of a general process of Islamification.
Also, biased sample i.e. a sample that is falsely taken to be typical of a population from which it is drawn.

There is also a large element of argumentum ad nauseam here - accusations about Muslims and Europeans are made repeatedly until nobody is bothered to refute them anymore, at which point the accusations are taken to be true because they are no longer challenged.

I'll mention a final fallacy (although there are many more): the fallacy of self-fulfilling prophecy e.g. acting in ways that increase the likelihood of terrorism and extremism, and then using that increase in terrorism and extremism to justify one's initial actions.

Ok, one more: the fundamental attribution error i.e. the tendency for people to over-emphasise personality-based explanations for behaviours observed in other groups (in this case Muslims) while under-emphasising the role and power of situational influences on the same behaviour.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 31, 2007 6:00:39 AM PST
One more point: employing the above fallacies successfully requires having an audience that is too stupid to spot them.

Steyn is good at this. To take one example, consider Steyn's claim that Muhammad is the most popular boy's name in Belgium. Let's assume this is true. If you don't like Muslims it's pretty shocking stuff, right?

Wrong.

Muslims are 4% of the Belgian population.

So why might Muhammad be the most popular boy's name in Belgium? Because a very large proportion of Muslims call their sons Muhammad. If a similar proportion of Christians called their sons Jesus, then Jesus would be BY FAR the most popular name in Belgium.

But the naïve reader doesn't spot this, doesn't recognise how he is being manipulated, and is left with the mistaken impression that Belgium has been taken over by Muslims.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 31, 2007 8:02:21 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 31, 2007 8:04:30 AM PST
R Young says:
Elite European Liberal said:

"There is also a large element of argumentum ad nauseam here - accusations about Muslims and Europeans are made repeatedly until nobody is bothered to refute them anymore"

I noticed, Elite, that you didn't refute the facts about Mecca-aligned toilets in prison either. You simply tried to minimize the issue--it was only 'two toilet blocks' [how big is a 'toilet block?] re-oriented away from Mecca.

No big deal? Apparently, Elite, you are too sophisticated and delicate to ever have done repairs in your own home, or you would know that reorienting the direction of toilets involves big changes in plumbing, and is an expensive undertaking. All of this is done so muslim butts won't point in the wrong direction when they go to the loo. That does seem quite a concession for a lot of criminals. Let'm hold it until they get out if they don't like the direction of the toilets.

You advise us not to fall into the 'fallacy' of thinking that this little change in prison means anything of the like will happen any where else in the UK, but it already has. As I said earlier, some council housing already has had toilets oriented correctly with respect to Mecca.

In Bristol, "Bristol City Council spokeswoman Kate Hartas said:... "With all our allocations, we apply the normal criteria. But where there are two households of equal priority who qualify for an Aashyana home, we would offer to the household who would most benefit from the culturally- sensitive services that Aashyana provides."

Again the taxpayers are being mulcted for muslim rear end sensitivities. In any event, what kind of nutty religion requires that you check a compass before you can take a crap? Oh wait! The Christian and Jewish taxpayers have to check compasses before paying for and installing toilets that muslims can use to take a crap.

Also, in the category of creeping Islamic rot, is the secret conversion to halal food in the lunchrooms of some schools. We may add to that the order for prison guards to remove the English flag, the Cross of St. George, from their uniforms to avoid offending muslim criminals. We may continue to a reflect on the Church of England's talk about dumping St. George (too aggressive) and adopting a kinder and gentler saint for England in his stead. How about the muzzling of free speech in the UK when it comes to discussing the dark side of Islam? The rot is well underway.

In the meantime, of course, we can be sure the muslim community is fully appreciative of all this multi-culti concern for the headings of their rear ends, dismissal of saints, ect.. Eight of them have just been arrested for plotting to kidnap and behead a British soldier in England.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/section/0,,1,00.html
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America Alone: The End of the World as We Know It by Mark Steyn (Audio Cassette - November 1, 2006)
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