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National Security????


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Initial post: Oct 4, 2009 10:29:30 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 4, 2009 10:34:28 AM PDT
Maybe, kinda, possibly, distantly a spoiler alert...

Are we, the great unwashed masses, as naÔve as the author would presume, that seeing an edited representation of Masonic initiations with powerful people in government and industry present and participating, would cause the collapse of the free world?

Frankly, I think my intelligence was just severely insulted with that premise. Did the Bushes (and others) lose one iota of their influence when details of Skull and Bones initiations were made public? Are we so fragile as to go completely off the deep end because the {insert important person and their position here} witnessed and/or participated in some rather frightening initiation rites that have continued for hundreds of years?

Good Lord, I would hope we are more intelligent than that (the success of operations like TMZ notwithstanding)!

LG

Posted on Oct 4, 2009 11:45:08 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 4, 2009 11:46:47 AM PDT
Lola says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Oct 4, 2009 4:50:21 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 4, 2009 4:53:37 PM PDT
I got the point. I just felt that the whole plotline element that the video was an item of critical national security was so much hooey. I truly think the democracy and state of the nation would be undamaged with the release of said video--all the other Masonic hooey notwithstanding. We, as a nation, can handle the truth.

No, I am not a spiritual person, and am in fact a devout agnostic. I found it very difficult to drive as I was listening to the last part of the book, because my eyes were rolled back into my head for so much of the time. It just got waaaay too melodramatic and overwrought--as if Mr. Brown was trying to pound his premise into my head with a sledgehammer. My mother was given to melodramatic utterances. I know it when I see/hear it.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 5, 2009 12:07:29 AM PDT
Brown's book aren't particularly intellectual. If you thought his books would challenge anyone over the age of 9, you were mistaken. Brown's plots are basically based on the fact that we suspend common sense and don't bother to run a Google search on anything that appears in his book.

I still remember getting a huge headache when reading the "da Vinci Code" and Langdon got a call, on his CELLULAR PHONE, while at cruising altitude in Teabing's jet. And then all the character's lack of plausible motivations. And the fact that Langdon is an annoying prick. And Brown's assumptions that anyone would really care, 2000 years later, if Jesus had a child. And Brown's idiotic made-up history of the Catholic Church, the Council of Nicea, the Inquisition, the Knights Templar, Paris.

The Priory of Sion was NEVER real. Brown is either a complete gibbering moron, or a liar when he puts this in the front of his books:

""All descriptions of artwork, architecture, documents, and secret rituals in this novel are accurate."

Sorry Brown, but I can use Google and read reference texts (you don't cite any) that show your wrong.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 5, 2009 12:42:29 AM PDT
Russ says:
Look how much of our nation has gone off the deep end when an African America was elected president.

We were once very enlightened and we lost our way. How many people were murdered during the inquisitions? How many "witches" did we hang, drown or burn because these practices didn't fall into a narrow field of general acceptance.

A person can be smart, people can be very stupid and that what people don't understand they don't want to take the rime, they just want to smash it to bits and there problem solved, nothing left to understand.

So yes I think the masses would start lighting torches and sharpening pitch forks.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 5, 2009 12:58:06 AM PDT
"Look how much of our nation has gone off the deep end when an African America was elected president."

Ehhh.... are you seriously blaming Obama's ethnicity?

"How many people were murdered during the inquisitions? How many "witches" did we hang, drown or burn because these practices didn't fall into a narrow field of general acceptance."

The Spanish Inquisition has about 1,080 confirmed executions. Historians say therefore, taking that number as a minimum, about 3,000.

Hardly Browns hysterical "Millions of women". If millions had been killed, Europe would have been entirely depopulated.

"A person can be smart, people can be very stupid and that what people don't understand they don't want to take the rime, they just want to smash it to bits and there problem solved, nothing left to understand."

Ah yes, that makes no sense, but if you want to philosophize, I'll just ignore it.

"So yes I think the masses would start lighting torches and sharpening pitch forks."

I find the fact that you don't understand that the death tolls of the Inquisitions is a matter of record, and seem to believe Brown's non-historical melodramatic lies telling. I think no one would care in the slightest.

Posted on Oct 5, 2009 2:28:39 AM PDT
Lola says:
I've been on planes with cell phone and wifi coverage...that's a nit point to pick.

Posted on Oct 5, 2009 3:24:12 AM PDT
Russ says:
You prove my point perfectly!

You would rather be smug and insulting than open your mind to the possibility that people would react poorly wwhen their comfort levels of acceptance are threatened, so you attempt to "smash" my opinion.

If you don't understand "mob mentality" to explain an historically documented human behaviour, then I'm sorry I can't have a discussion with you.

No where in MY post did I use the word millions of deaths during inqusitions, I asked "how many?", whether it was 1000, 3000 or 3 million, the fact remains that mass fear often fueled by religious hysteria caused the terrorizing, torture, imprisonment and death of many, many people and not just once during our somewhat tragic history. It is a constant running theme that repeats itself often. When we don't learn we're bound to repeat past mistakes.

But hey, if it makes you feel better to be in total denial of the brutal and often illogical driving forces towards mans self destructive nature, then by all means, smash away!

Posted on Oct 5, 2009 3:47:39 AM PDT
Russ says:
Btw... I've read some of your other posts and that's all you seem to do Mr Stanton is smash. I get the feeling that you don't like Dan Brown as is your perogative but for you to attack individuals for having a difference of opinion is unacceptable and shows an incredible narrow mindedness. Which proves another aspect of the "smash what I don't like or understand" behaviour. It is minds like yours that is a the root of many of our troubles as a spieces and you prove Mr Browns point as well.

Bravo!

That takes skill!

Posted on Oct 5, 2009 6:15:17 PM PDT
Sam says:
I agree with you Jazz. Lets say there was a crisis over criminal politicians engaging in masonic rituals. Good we need a revolution anyways wheter its on a bogus premise of which Brown said in his book or realizing our country has been taken over by bankers and Corporate giants either way it is a good.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 6, 2009 1:26:45 PM PDT
"No where in MY post did I use the word millions of deaths during inqusitions, I asked "how many?", whether it was 1000, 3000 or 3 million"

Ok fine, I thought you were attempting to imply that the number of people who died in the Inquisition were somehow an enormous or unknown number. I'm sorry. I interpreted an implication where none existed. Its a hazard of communicating with text.

"Btw... I've read some of your other posts and that's all you seem to do Mr Stanton is smash"

mmm 'kay thats nice.

"for you to attack individuals for having a difference of opinion is unacceptable"

Not really, this is an unmoderated forum, but yeah... And I don't understand why people keep putting quotes around smash as if it was something I said.

"It is minds like yours that is a the root of many of our troubles as a spieces and you prove Mr Browns point as well."

Ah. An ad hominem. I'm not in denial about the terrible crimes that have been committed by religion and fanatical belief. I think Dan has a cogent point. What I think ruins it is his tendency to distort the facts in doing so, and claim that it is all true.

Posted on Oct 6, 2009 4:39:42 PM PDT
Russ says:
I accept your apology. I understand that at times things get lost in the translation. I have a hard time dealing with narrow mindedness and believe that its the root of most of human conflict, not being open to others beliefs and understandings and when it appears that people are being attacked for their opinions, I get a bit on the defensive side. So I too apologize for the appearance of ad hominem, it wasn't my intention to clump.

I don't understand why we feel the need to bare teeth and attach each other. I know that passions can run high when invoking religion and politics but we've got to figure a way past that. Neither side listens. If any of that makes sense, sorry if it doesn't or appears as a ramble, my twins kept me up late last night.

I don't think that Brown is trying to come off as if his books are imperical facts, of course we have to take these things with a grain of salt. He doesn't classify his books as fiction or rhetorical theory. He simply states that the historical information he uses is fact. The Priory of Scion at one time was believed to be real until later proved a hoax. Noetic science is a real (whether anyone believes in it or not) its still there. I believe that along with entertaining us, he's trying to open minds and get people talking. Its important, look at the backwards slide we're taking in intelligence, reasoning and critical thinking as a whole. Its cause for concern that in this day and age so many people don't understand or believe in evolution. Maybe Noetic science can help us with that (winks).

Btw... anthropologists have the number of deaths during the "Burning Times" at 60,000 to 300,000 just thought I'd throw that out there, lol!

Posted on Oct 6, 2009 6:53:51 PM PDT
Russ says:
Correction:

He doesn't classify his books as non fiction...

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 8, 2009 8:13:51 AM PDT
In history there have been two large attacks (and a current one) on Masons due to propaganda based upon misconstruing of Masonic degrees and principles (and more that I cant currently think of).

The first was in the US in the early 1800s. Shortly after independance and the War of 1812, "anti-Masons" (a general term for those who dont like Masons) came upon recent stories of misdeeds supposively involving Masons (most were later found to not involve Masons or to be true). The most noteable and well known is "The Morgan Affair". These misdeeds were reprinted and used to attack Masons. Masons were arrested on false charges, physically attacked, had property destroyed, and lost jobs and businesses. The Masonic fraternity was virtually destroyed in the US and only survived because a few number of dedicated members who kept it in extreme secrecy. This was all in a country which was founded by many Masons, upon many Masonic principles (freedom of speech, religion, and voting), and its most regarded person George Washington was well known to be an active Mason.

The second was an even more brutal attack. It was part of the Holocaust in Nazi Germany. Many are familiar with the anti-Semitic propaganda, but the anti-Masonic propaganda seems to be largely ignored. One of the "reasons" behind the anti-Semitism was the belief in a "Jewish and Masonic conspiracy" that was attempting to take over Germany (and the world) using "Capitalism, Communism, and (Social) Democrats". Although the vast majority of those arrested and killed were Jews, Stasi, and Polish, there were many Masons (typically defined as "political"). The US Holocaust Museum believes between 60,000 to 100,000 Masons were killed (and many more who were arrested). The Nazis had numerous anti-Masonic displays and even tore one down a German Lodge building brick by brick "looking for the Masonic secrets".

Currently in the United Kingdom there has been a push by some to force Masons to have to declare their membership if they are or are going to apply to be a member of any government organization, including law enforcement (note: the law is to only to apply to Masons and not to any other organization). This is again in a country where Masonry has long been active and where many of its revered leaders and citizens were Masons.

Masonry, and Masons have become a "strawman" for many. There have been numerous documents that have made various scandalous claims. Most are misinterpretations and some are outright lies (Taxil Hoax). Currently most have not some on the internet, from Paranoid Conspiracy Theorists to Religious Intolerants, who wish to make Masonry the root of all evil.

Posted on Oct 22, 2009 7:52:27 AM PDT
Kate says:
Dan Brown clearly writes to the lowest common denominator of intelligence. While I thought the two other Robert Langdon books were at least fun and somewhat interesting in a "let me just ignore reason for a little while" kind of way, as someone who has at least some critical thinking skills, yeah... I too was pretty insulted that this was the "doomsday scenario that would destroy our world as we know it" (or some crap like that). There is NO WAY a video like that would cause the amount of chaos that Brown wants us to believe that it can. Anyone who believes that is probably also stupid enough to be one of the people who rated this book five stars. At the VERY WORST, some people would be pressured to step down from office, although I doubt it would even come to that. It would most likely make the rounds as a viral video before dying away.

I'm sure the conspiracy nut jobs would have a field day, but since most people in the world are either rational just enough to not care so much or don't pay attention to the news (and there are a lot of these), it would hardly cause global disorder. Like you said, the same exact thing happened when it came to light that Bush was a member of Skull and Bones, and their ceremonies. It made the rounds on news channels for a while. Conspiracy nut jobs had a field day. And ultimately NOTHING happened.

Posted on Oct 23, 2009 12:42:54 PM PDT
It is very easy to be duped if you continue to believe your intelligence is being insulted!

This is how so many people get into power - you choose to believe what they are telling you or you choose to think they are insulting you.

The so called 'Skull and Cross Bones' is part of the initiation of the Freemasons!! Most of the highly placed people are in that brotherhood and if you want to believe that the Freemasons are evil then you have a problem, because it is so often - if not always - that those that make it to the top do so because they belong to the Freemasons.

Dan is not talking down to us at all, he is trying to give some of us some enlightenment about what is going on in the world that we don't generally get know about.

Yes it is a fictional story and so the idea that the whole Government could be brought down by that exposure was part of the plot - nothing more, nothing less. Most people don't know enough to understand how powerful the Masonic movement is when it comes to the higher degrees of Freemasonry and so they get what they want because, indeed, the masses are ignorant!!!

Posted on Oct 23, 2009 9:08:20 PM PDT
Anyone old enough to know some details about the War of The Worlds radio broadcast on Sunday, October 30, 1938, are hardly phased by a claim that "these things are true" in a novel. Concern over the truthiness would be at best a very casual inquiry.

Our hero's total ignorance of or openness to what might be truthful in a myth or legend is truly appalling and more than a little irritating as a leitmotif for someone who ought to have known better ever since he took Symbology 101.

It's too bad that Brown didn't have any way to end his story. As in the Quest for the Holy Grail, the D.C. Police should have just driven up and arrested everyone we had been reading about for trashing the Capitol City. Now that would have given us Hope for change we can believe in for future books.

Meanwhile, to the original topic, after living through last August the national security risk seemed to me a perfectly imaginable plot line. The only hitch is that the Masons, in the English world at least, seem to be highly protest-ant oriented and such a video might just be taken as confirming fundamentalist views of religious truthiness. So it is equally imaginable that such a video would sink like a rock except for, ahem, fringe elements.

Posted on Oct 23, 2009 11:03:37 PM PDT
I doubt if there is anyone here old enough to know some of the details of the War of the Worlds Harold, most of them are too young to even remember Orson Wells :D

I don't think that The War of the Worlds (now 71 years old) is a good way of trying to show that maybe anyone who believes Dan is as easily sucked in as so many Americans were back then. There have been many incidents since then you could have chosen.

Dan really doesn't say anything is real except the buildings and the organisations... his take on things are really only fiction - except for some things which are well known.

I am sorry too that he had no real way to end the story after so much of it was edited i.e. The Solomon Key that he apparently did use in his original manuscript.

Yes the Masons are highly anti-protest, well they would be wouldn't they - they are a secret organisation - we are hardly likely to see them walking the streets holding placards.

I am sure that no one would take seriously the thought of bringing down the Government by exposing some of the Mason's rituals, but it might surprise people to know just how many men who are in very high positions in Governments around the world are Freemasons. He didn't get that wrong!

Yes the video would surely sink like a rock - even without the ahem... fringe elements. No one would believe it anyway - that is how Governments can get away with so much - and they do :(

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 24, 2009 2:50:21 PM PDT
Thanks Carolyn. Your points are well-taken. About War of the Worlds I guess I was just showing my age without thinking it through. I should have known better :)

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 24, 2009 3:57:59 PM PDT
:D Harold, the very fact that I knew what you were talking about puts me up in the higher age bracket too.

Actually the problem is, not that you should have known better, but that you know more than a lot of the others here due to your age :)

We don't learn less as we get older, we learn more.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 26, 2010 4:30:06 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 26, 2010 4:30:55 PM PDT
"I don't think that Brown is trying to come off as if his books are imperical facts"

Russ - Weeell...what about those claims at the beginning of both DVC and Lost Symbol that the background information is factual - when so much of it is anything but correct? I think that's what annoys me most about Brown. Thrillers are fine, fantasy is great, and fiction is wonderful. Trying to con people into thinking your fantasy is the Real Truth about the world we live in, not so much.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 29, 2010 11:57:59 AM PDT
Maryam says:
Will Ready Anything,

Absolutely. Most telling were Dan Brown's interviews about DVC, when he stated that he had come to the conclusion that the version of Christian history espoused in his book was the correct one, and that, shorn of the thriller elements, he would stand behind it as the truth. His clear intention was to tell the world that everything he said about Jesus, the Bible, Christianity, etc., was absolutely correct.

One of the most amusing lines in A&D is the one about "Don't you people know your own history?" Langdon is infuriated that the Catholic Church personnel he is talking to don't know anything about the massacre of Illuminati scientists by the Church ("their bodies were thrown into the streets of Rome to serve as examples" ). Of course, you can't know about an event that didn't happen.

I've had people tell me that Brown is being deliberately coy, trying to get people to THINK that he's saying his facts are solid-really, it's only his descriptions of certain things that are to be taken seriously. So his description of the "hieros gamos" sex rites that are a foundation of the "sacred feminine" part of his DVC argument is either a sensational exposure of something that no one knows about as part of Jewish/Christian tradition-because all descriptions of rituals are accurate, and the sacred feminine was totally suppressed-or a piece of total invention. Same thing for the Secret Dossiers-they physically exist, but are admitted forgeries.

I thought Lost Symbol was just a silly book with bad characters, bad writing, no coherent plot, muddled history, incredibly bad local color/information, and a last-ditch attempt at the end to find some significance in a mashed-together stew of "all religions are the same" and "we will all be gods as soon as we accept the enlightenment of the 100% proven tenets of noetic science so we can glean the ancient mysteries out of the sacred texts." I just don't think that Dan Brown is revealing new and startling truths, making connections that no one else can provide us. I think he's a formulaic writer who got lucky with DVC (astute promotion playing a huge part), and doesn't have another story to tell-hence the repetition of plot structure and characters.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 29, 2010 1:55:29 PM PDT
PeachPatch says:
"And Brown's assumptions that anyone would really care, 2000 years later, if Jesus had a child." You can't be serious. This would be the download of all religion. Protestant and Catholic! The Catholic Dynasty............ has depleted people of their last dime charging for salvation. If Jesus had a child, the Catholic Papacy would crumble........ and the people with it. You fail to see the depth of which faith has such a strong grasp on which people hold most sacred. Faith is the foundation of all religious beliefs! Faith in their "Saviour", the Jewish Yahew , Jesus or Buddha............ is critical in their daily lives. This was the whole point of the book.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 29, 2010 6:50:00 PM PDT
Brown is not the only one to believe that Jesus and Mary had several children. There is sound reason to think so and if you want to seek this out I would l suggest you get yourself into reading some of the archaeology of the times and also some of the understanding of the life and times of the Essenes, the people that Jesus came from.

Yes if the churches gave any credence to this they would indeed look as if they had egg on their faces but would it not be better to explore this possibility rather than allow everyone who holds religion so sacred to keep on believing in a dogma based on falsehood?

Posted on Oct 5, 2010 9:28:30 AM PDT
Freemasonary in and of itself is not evil. What is evil is a consortium of individuals, bound together by some poorly defined beliefs, traditions or rituals, who use this affiliation (brotherhood) to their own personal advantage, abusing those not connected..... perhaps aggrandizing one member at the expense of someone who believed in the power of the cross rather than the skull and bones. It is the conspiracy element that is evil and becoming more prevalent. In an uncertain world, men gravitate to what is known.
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Discussion in:  The Lost Symbol forum
Participants:  15
Total posts:  30
Initial post:  Oct 4, 2009
Latest post:  Jan 6, 2012

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The Lost Symbol: A novel by Dan Brown (Paperback - 2010)
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