Pullman is atheist and this book promotes atheism


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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 9, 2007 10:07:13 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 9, 2007 10:08:17 AM PST
Kenneth L. Bray writes:
"Imagine if Pullman had called his god character Muhamed. Pullman would probably be dead by now. We christians aren't advocating burning any books. We aren't even saying that Pullman doesn't have the right to publish whatever he wants to publish."

Well, since you are lumping together "We Christians" all together, I'll point out that what I mostly have issues with is this quote earlier in the thread:

K. Lundsford wrote:
"Mr. Green, I'm very secure in my faith, but as a parent, it is my responsibility to guard and protect my children from unseemly and preditory individuals who wish to subvert our society (one that is founded and built on the Christian belief system) by intellectual terrorists such as Pullman. Let me take you back a few decades, to a woman by the name of Madeline Murray O'Hare. Before she came along and through a monkey wrench into our school systems, children could pray without reprisal, play without fear and believe with repremand. Now they can't. What do you wish for us to destroy next, should we tear down the churches or maybe line up the church pastors in front of a firing squad? Because no matter how you rationalize it, that is the end result. Pathetic? Take off your blinders and learn from our history."

This fellow travellor of yours is going well beyond the statement that Pullman has the right to publish whatever he wants and that Christians have the right to spread information and boycott. He's drawing a direct line between the publication of this work to the subversion of our society to "intellectual terrorism" to pastors being lined up in front of a firing squad. This is going well beyond simply wanting to keep your kids away from these kinds of books. This person clearly believes that the publication of these books alone is a direct punch in his nose. The thing that scares me is if these people start organizing together they're likely to rationalize that punching back in other forms (actual terrorism involving physical violence) is a legitimate response to the publication of a book. So we've got an example of a "Christian" here in this thread who is one intellectual step away from calling for the death of the author, or engaging in atrocities. This is the very mindset which did eventually lead to Crystal Nacht.

Don't buy it for your kids. Fine. Claim that the publication of the book is intellectual terrorism and is subverting all of society and I'll have a few things to say in return...

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 9, 2007 1:31:28 PM PST
D. Stephens says:
Forbid your child from reading the book... that way they'll be sure they read it behind your back.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 10, 2007 2:50:39 AM PST
Ditto. Just went & saw it AND am buying the trilogy...Hadn't even heard about it before & am intrigued by things that encourage idiots to feel threatened by others' free thought.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 10, 2007 4:44:06 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 11, 2007 12:40:14 PM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 11, 2007 9:10:50 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 11, 2007 9:16:54 PM PST
Kitsuno says:
Ironic that NONE of the reviews mentioned a single thing about "Atheism" until a movie was made, and someone in church decided to make a fuss. I also find it telling that some Christians have such a weak and teetering faith that they fear three fiction books are going to ruin their church and pull away future potential members. Shouldn't faith mean that you don't have to fear fiction? Apparently some Christians think these books are stronger than the bible. Funny. If all it takes is reading a set of fiction books to weaken the Christian Church, these must be some extremely powerful books.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 11, 2007 10:16:19 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 11, 2007 10:17:10 PM PST
Kitsuno says:
"these must be some extremely powerful books."

CLE:
(In total agreement with your entire post);
...as are Jonathan Livingston Seagull, the Never Ending Story, LOTR & Narnia, to name just a few.
The zealots do this all the time out of their own insecurity, and not only about (mind you non-existant) "spiritual" aspects of their belief system......but to also demonize such things as sexuality. Remember the stink they made when the movie "Making Love" came out? Geez.
Back to the afore-mentioned books: They didn't roar as loudly about these. They're about free-thought & self-awareness / spiritual growth & health too... for the thinkers within a world-wide reading public. What's the difference? Their own prophet spoke in parables. Are Aesop's works atheistic too? Or Mother Goose's stuff?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 11, 2007 10:49:33 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 11, 2007 10:50:10 PM PST
quotha says:
Bargin_Mom_7,

"In all seriousness, Do you really believe that ALL of the reviewers have never read the books or at least began reading them?"

I wrote "many," not "ALL."

Many of the negative reviews either give no details that show they read the books, contain blatant lies, or rephrase Bill Donohue's opinions.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 11, 2007 11:24:09 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 11, 2007 11:28:39 PM PST
Bargain_Mom_7 says:
"A Christian could say the same thing about atheists who say they have read the Bible."

CLE:
You'd be surprised to know that not only have many athiests read (and memorized) " 'the' bible" (and can probably quote it, chapter and verse, better than most Xians)...but are formerly religious themselves. It's become a matter of keeping one's friends close & one's enemies closer nowadays though. You insult the intelligence & integrity of an athiest by saying they know not of what they speak... unwittingly proving their point against you. Have you not realized or heard this before?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 12, 2007 6:12:33 AM PST
Bargain_Mom_7 says:
"A Christian could say the same thing about atheists who say they have read the Bible."

CLE:
You'd be surprised to know that not only have many athiests read (and memorized) " 'the' bible" (and can probably quote it, chapter and verse, better than most Xians)...but are formerly religious themselves. It's become a matter of keeping one's friends close & one's enemies closer nowadays though. You insult the intelligence & integrity of an athiest by saying they know not of what they speak... unwittingly proving their point against you. Have you not realized or heard this before?

Make sure that when you quote me that you quote everything that I said in context then you won't have to assume that I did not know that.

"A Christian could say the same thing about atheists who say they have read the Bible. I know that can't be true because I met quite a few in college who were practicing catholics at one time."

Again I say to everyone just looking for a fight (Christian, atheists, agnostics, and others) stop looking for something to bash the other about. Actually read and learn from each other and celebrate the fact that, oh my goodness, someone wants to take a stand for what they believe rather than tear them down.

The old wise people used to always say, "If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything." Let's agree to disagree and stop all this senseless bashing.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 12, 2007 11:03:04 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 12, 2007 11:05:43 PM PST
You quote yourself out of context, deary:
In context, I took the qoute from the following paragraph of yours:
In all seriousness, Do you really believe that ALL of the reviewers have never read the books or at least began reading them? Granted there maybe some out there. I don't doubt it but come on. A Christian could say the same thing about atheists who say they have read the Bible. I know that can't be true because I met quite a few in college who were practicing catholics at one time.
Be sure not to assume one needs admonished for something they'd not done.
That said:
Folks on seemingly opposing "sides" of senseless arguments, yes you're right, should agree to disagree. Perhaps that's best here too?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 13, 2007 10:46:22 AM PST
P. Smolinski says:
You have to know that Pullman raised the issues about God and his beliefs in the press recently. That is why people are mad. Its a good trilogy but why does the Author have to talk so much? I know freedom of speach and all that. Then people have the right not buy his book And talk about why they aren't buying the book.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 13, 2007 6:22:13 PM PST
C. Goff says:
who cares if Pullman is an atheist? Who cares if his book promotes atheism? I dont!!!!!! There are all sorts of books promoting judaism, buddhism, and christianity. Is anyone bashing them?????????????????????? NO. and like others have stated, by creating controversy over this, your just making him richer and more famous.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 13, 2007 8:52:03 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 13, 2007 8:53:28 PM PST
P. Smolinski says:
You have to know that Pullman raised the issues about God and his beliefs in the press recently. That is why people are mad. Its a good trilogy but why does the Author have to talk so much? I know freedom of speach and all that. Then people have the right not buy his book And talk about why they aren't buying the book.

CLE:
Yes, but not to say others "shouldn't"
Authors talk on book tours...and to the press. It's gone on for a long time. Is there a problem with this? Would you suggest they just do signings at teahouses with their mouths shut?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 14, 2007 8:04:49 AM PST
ggt says:
It is so ironic that after so much, Individuals within the Catholic Church are behaving exactly as the Individuals within the Magisterium in Pullman's books behave.

I received more than one "flyer" from my son's school telling me how bad the Movie was BEFORE it was released.

After seeing the movie, I laughed out loud. How little things change.

I am thinking about wearing my "I read Banned Books" button to our next Parent/Teacher conference.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 15, 2007 9:34:02 AM PST
Pullman promotes free-thinking, something that more of us should try.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 15, 2007 9:46:27 AM PST
Kenneth, I hope these books don't offend your beliefs. The only people whose beliefs who should be offended by the materials in these books are those who think anyone has the right to tell them that they can't read, hear, think, or believe anything other than the carved-in-stone doctrines espoused by their 'leaders'. These books aren't about bashing Christians (or any other religion) -- they're about not being brainwashed, oppressed, and told what is right, without the right to think and experience and decide for yourself. I don't see why that should offend or violate anyone's beliefs. Do you think so little of yourself and your children that you feel free-thinking and the right to decide for yourselves is wrong?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 15, 2007 5:31:33 PM PST
C. Hoffman says:
"Pullman is atheist and this book promotes atheism
check out the research and Pullman's quotes on www.snopes.com for more info."

Your point being???

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 16, 2007 3:37:54 AM PST
The Authority is a false god... I beleive the book made this pretty clear.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 16, 2007 8:34:58 PM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 16, 2007 9:11:52 PM PST
D. Amann says:
I am very happy his books promote Atheism, or rather, maybe not Atheism but just anti-christian messages. Christianity is an abomination to free thought, morality, and the development of an individual mind and ability. Christians cast Lucifer as "the devil" however, Lucifer is a Promethean figure, bringing knowledge to man, while god tries to prevent this. The catholic church should be convicted of high crimes and abolished in america by the US government. Any other cult with less members that molested as many children, and who's male followers got drunk and beat their wives and children as frequently, would be. So, in response to this post, anti-christian or Atheist messages are more than welcome!

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 17, 2007 7:44:57 AM PST
ggt says:
I was suprised by the snopes site's page on this. I think that in the books, it is clear that the "christian church" described is not only part of a different "world" but also very different than ours. The first book describes how the church changed after "Pope John Calvin" moved the Vatican to another city. I think anyone familiar with history would know that this very different than reality.

We used it to start a discussion in our family about history and about the seductive nature of power.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 17, 2007 10:19:42 AM PST
Dawkins says:
Whoever wrote the snopes entry clearly never read the book. Therefore, you got to take it with a grain of salt, and understand that all that information is completely out of context.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 17, 2007 10:31:04 AM PST
Zmortis says:
Well, the controversy has done one thing for certain. I'm getting a copy of the books from my parents for Christmas this year. I hope Pullman and his detractors all appreciate the irony.

Since I've read plenty of books by Christian, Taoist, Buddhist, Jewish, Shinto, Hindu, Mormon, Scientologist, Agnostic, and Atheist authors in the past, I think I will be safe to read this series as well. Hmm, it seems my reading taste is lacking in Islamic authors now that I list them out. I wonder if Frank Herbert's "Dune" counts for that demographic?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2007 12:48:20 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 19, 2007 1:02:13 PM PST
Zmortis says:
Since I mentioned the faiths of some of the authors I've read I thought I should mention some of their names.

Christian - J.R.R. Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, etc.
Taoist - Benjamin Hoff
Buddhist - Robert M. Pirsig
Jewish - Joel Rosenberg, David Brin
Shinto - Hayao Miyazaki, Rumiko Takahashi
Hindu - the "Bhagavad Gita"
Mormon - Tracy R. Hickman
Scientologist - L. Ron Hubbard
Agnostic/Atheist - Issac Asimov, Robert A. Heinlein, Mark Twain, etc.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2007 2:00:49 PM PST
A. David says:
I like the discussion on this thread better!
As I've mentioned on the other thread, ANY literature that makes a person THINK is good literature and very powerful, but at the end, an author can not impose his/her views on a reader and surely not sway someone with deep convictions. It is the peril or opportunity of the reader to have his/her convictions strengthened or questioned. To review a book with prejudice is a disservice to humanity and a mockery of free thought. We are not in the Middle Ages anymore.
Even parents should only guide and give their oppinions to their children and have them decide for themselves. They will have to learn to think for themselves sooner or later.

Zmortis, I haven't read books from the authors listed from Taoist to Scientologist but I certainly have the books from the Christians and Atheists. And I believe that Tolkien, Lewis and Asimov where friends who encouraged, suppported and even had debats about their view. They where friends who respected each others views and writings. Why can't these Christian and Atheists do the same i wonder? (I'm trying outh the other authors BTW, thanks!)

I bet Pullman is haveing a rollicking good laugh over all this!
No matter what anyone says about his books, they are being sold and read. And no matter what the author's personal views and intentions where, it's still a FANTASY BOOK WRITTEN TO ENTERTAIN...isn't it?
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His Dark Materials Trilogy: The Golden Compass / The Subtle Knife / The Amber Spyglass
His Dark Materials Trilogy: The Golden Compass / The Subtle Knife / The Amber Spyglass by Philip Pullman (Paperback - October 1, 2001)
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