Customer Reviews

Rich Vs Roach

5 star:		(15)
4 star:		(2)
3 star:		(5)
2 star:		(0)
1 star:		(0)

 

 

The late Don DeMicheal (one of jazz music's foremost writers, and a fine drummer as well) once wrote about this session calling it "this drum lover's dream come true". DeMicheal went on to say that the two drummers are heard "throwing ideas back and forth as if engaged in a mad, joyous tennis match. And how they inspire each other".It is certainly a great tribute to the greatness of both Mr. Rich and Mr. Roach, that here we are 46 years after this remarkable session was recorded, and the album is still the subject of a much heated debate among jazz fans, drummers, as well as students of jazz (as can be witnessed in many of the reviews found here), with many praising the drummer who is their favorite and (very sadly) putting down the drummer who is not their favorite.The truth is that BOTH Mr. Roach AND Mr. Rich DESERVE to be called CHAMPIONS! Both have given so much to jazz! Yes indeed they both have different styles, but isn't that what makes jazz music such a art form?For those of you who are interested in reading a SERIOUS analysis of this recording (and not just the childish remarks of "my favorite is better than your favorite"), I suggest that you go to your nearest research library and try and locate a copy of the March 24, 1966 issue of DOWN BEAT. It contains a very interesting notated analysis of two of the tracks from this great recording (completely transcribed), by drum authority Rupert Kettle. (For those who do not know, Mr Kettle has written much about drumming throughout the years in many publications including SOUND & FURY, MODERN DRUMMER, as well as DOWN BEAT).As Mr. Kettle points out in the article (on page 19), "The 1959 Mercury album presents the playing of possibly the finest representatives of their respective approaches and at the same time presents both men as mature musicians, at the height of their creative and technical powers".I feel that jazz fans and drummers on both sides of this debate would do well to read this article. Mr. Kettle enjoys, understands and appreciates the playing of both Mr. Rich and Mr. Roach, as do I.So to the people on both sides of this debate, I say, take the time to find this article, it will help you to understand the playing of BOTH of these drumming greats much better than reading most of the childish comments that I am again sorry to say have been posted here.I will sum up this remarkable album by again quoting Mr. DeMicheal when he wrote that "the winner is the listener".

I have always been fascinated by the tribal lure of the drum, and Buddy Rich has always been the pre-eminent drum virtuoso of all time, in my opinion.

Yes, there are those who dislike Rich's bombastic playing as opposed to Max Roach's more calm and intellectual approach to his instrument. I cannot argue with that other than to say that this CD is a perfect example of both men's styles. Rich pounds the drums like a madman, and Roach plays them like a lover. Rich exhudes flash and fireworks, and Roach embraces subtlety and a carefully placed silence. Both men hammer out their styles like professionals, and some may say that it comes out as a draw.

Whatever your personal taste is regarding these two drum masters, this is a CD that drum fans and jazz fans can enjoy for generations to come. The debate over who was the better drummer will never be solved, but at least we can hear these two jazz giants battle it out, knowing that they were loving every minute of it.

This is an album for drummers and extreme drum lovers only, who would likely give this record five stars. All others would be advised to consider Buddy's work with Dizzy Gillespie for jazz music which is better rounded. Max's fans should seek out Sonny Rollins' 1958 classic Saxaphone Collossus. "Figure Eights" is a drums-only track which showcases Buddy's blinding speed an Max's resourcefulness on the toms. The artists play no-frills, four piece set ups, so what you get is a 64 minute blast of drum set virtuosity without any gimmicks. Recorded in the 50's, both artists are at the top of their form. So who wins this drum battle? Buddy's the better technician, but Max is the better musician.

This CD has a superb selection of music performed by the entire ensemble. Each selection allows two great drummers with widely contrasting styles to exhibit their own interpretations of the music. To that end it is not only music to enjoy, but an opportunity for drummers of all genres to hear more than one way to approach music. It is also filled with technique, regardless of musical style or preferred genre.

One thing to note is in any CD (or video) of "drum battles" between the older legends, such as Buddy Rich, Max Roach, Gene Kruppa, etc., the drummers are not competing with each other as much as showcasing. That generation of drummers each had an established niche based on their styles and approach to drums, and in interview after interview with the likes of Rich, Kruppa and others they were always complementary towards and respectful of other drummers.

What I especially like about this CD is it provides a rare glimpse into Roach's playing in a number of sets designed to showcase his drumming. I never tire of listening to Buddy's amazing speed and rhythm, but I cannot get enough of Roach and only wish there were more recordings (audio and video) that focused on his drumming.

If you're a drummer you have a rare opportunity to listen to two great drummers approach music from two widely diverse directions with consumate skill and flawless playing. If you are not a drummer, this CD is still valuable because the music is great and to be savored.

I don't agree with the consensus that there isn't good music here. True, drums are dead-center in this set. But Gigi Gryce arranged all the music and it is all beautiful. Listen to Phil Woods backed by Rich go up against S. turrentine backed by Roach and tell me that this isn't exciting music. Moreover, the drums engage in fascinating dialogue more than straght out competition. Liston to sing sing sing, a beautifully full and rich statement of the theme frames two extended solos, first Rich's break neck snare work and then Max's more thoughtful and complex rythms (his use of silence and space is striking in relation to Rich's relentless roles). Ultimately Roach makes Rich looks a bit simplistic and outdated, but Rich's speed keeps him in the running, and throughout the music they swing away. I'm not a drummer and i give it 5 stars as a great overlooked classic.

As much as I agree that there is some nice material on here, and that both drummers play their sock (cymbals) off, it was clearly mixed to favour Rich in the "competition" angle. I doubt either musician viewed it that way, but I had to sell my copy of this because everytime I listened it would annoy me that Rich's parts were jacked way up in the mix, and Max sounded like he had been recorded in the bathroom. It isn't down to Max's drums at the time, though that could have contributed. It is the mix... I have the Newport Rebels LP, recorded a few years before this, and on it both Max and "Papa" Jo Jones play on a Booker Little composition called "Cliff Walk"- both kits come out loud and clear, in fact it is a monumentally exciting piece because of the propulsion of the twin drummers. I just wish the snazzy arrangements, great musicians and master drummers on this particular record could have been recorded with a little more care (and a little less bias) Still recommended- esp. for trapsmen!

I read an interview with Art Blakey in which he talked about his album "Orgy in Rhythm", which featured three drummers and other percussionists. Art wasn't happy with it. He said, basically, that you can get three horn players together and get music, you can even get three pianists together and get music, but you get three drummers together you get noise because they're always trying to hog the spotlight and they don't play together effectively. That being the case, the only way you can get Buddy Rich on disc with Max Roach is to have "Rich versus Roach". The whole competitive thing shouldn't be taken too seriously, it's just a format necessitated by the role that drums play in jazz. And it sure shouldn't be an exercise in "my favorite drummer can beat up your favorite drummer", which seems to be the approach taken by a lot of the reviewers here. I like Buddy, I like Max, I like a lot of other drummers too. It's interesting to hear them contrasted on the same disc but I'd rather hear them in their natural habitats. The one good thing is that back in the day when this was made, enough attention was paid to the drummers to merit showcase vehicles like this. I don't think that's the case now.

I heard about this album from watching the "Burning for Buddy" VHS set that David Garibaldi described on the video. It sounded interesting to me, but I never got around to getting it, until one day when I saw it at a local music store! I almost immediately picked it up with so much anticipation, and heard one of the most interesting albums I have ever heard!In being a drummer I was struck with utter amazement. Although this isn't a great album from a musical standpoint, it has some of the greatest drumming one will ever hear. If you are looking for a great all around jazz album this isn't it. Some great highlights from the album are "Sleep" the rendition of "Sing, Sing, Sing", and "Figure Eights", which is all drum solos and no accompaning music. Listen about 3/4 of the way through the song and it sounds like a machine gun and Buddy and Max play in unison! When one listens to this album you can clearly define what drummer is what by their respected solos. Besides the fact that Rich is in the left speaker when soloing and Roach in the right, you can still hear the differences. Rich as the more faster speed with the crisper snare drum, while Roach is more inventive with his syncopated tom fills and "old school" snare sound. So which drummer is better? They both have equal representation from my standpoint. Do yourself a favor, drummer or not, pick up this album. If you think some of these rock drummers from today are good? Listen to this and then determine who is better. Both drummers have great quintet bands backing them, only giving supported to probably the two greatest ever!

This CD was exactly what I was looking for. Some might say that it lacks good music other than drumming. To put it lightly, DUH! I payed my money to hear the drumming, not great group music.

This is the best drum battle/band battle album ever. Buddy Rich Quintet in the left channel, Max Roach Quintet in the right. It's billed as a battle, but it ends up as a draw - thanks to the completely contrasting styles of Rich and Roach. On a basic level, the sound quality is awesome, the stereo separation appropriate and FUN!