Wow, reading Huffington post, New York Times, Christianity Today and various bloggers, it seems Rob Bell is knocking at the gates of Hell yelling "open up." And maybe that is what the church should have been doing the last 2,000 years. Interesting articles on line: Rob Bell goes to hell; Go to Hell Rob Bell; Love Wins, What a Terrible Thing to Say. That last one is at the What the Hell is Hell site. Hey, the fire is stirring and that can't be all bad. It's time for the luke warm in this message to go one way of the other
Yes, it's time to go one way or the other. The whole god of torture who is somehow "love" is slowly being annihilated. I happen to think that what the torture pushers don't realize is that it's ALREADY over...they and their "loving" god of torture have already lost and are slowly dieing. The problem they have is that the vast majority (based on statistics and theologian's comments) of the younger people are not buying the eternal torture thing anymore. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that eternal torture and love are not quite congruent. And, the world has become a smaller place because of technology and so the "logic" of everyone being tortured who doesn't profess Jesus' lordship is showing up as no kind of logic at all. A torturing "god" who is somehow "love"...combined with nearly everyone who has ever lived being tortured forever, is not making much sense anymore now that people are able to find out information for themselves so easily. It's not that everyone was foolish before...many were just good people who trusted...and years ago it was not possible to get information as easily as it is now.
It's already over...the fundamentalist protestant and Catholics are like a pimple that is being squeezed and which will eventually burst. But it's already over, and torture has lost. The rest is really just a lot of hot air and going through the motions. The illogical "love" god of torture has already lost, his followers just won't accept it.
You're right. It's over. When people close their eyes to the Bible, all hell breaks loose.
Yet despite your comments, strangely enough, people aren't leaning that way. The Reformed position of orthodoxy is growing by leaps and bounds. Indeed, the world's largest seminary (Southern Baptist Theological Seminary) is Reformed.
So where do you think the evangelical landscape will be in 15 years when those seminarians graduate and start preaching?
May the all mighty lovely GOD have mercy on you. "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me". John 14:6 "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" Romans 10:9 It´s by faith... you believe ir or not... your choice. I´ve made mine! JESUS IS MY LORD AND SAVIOR
I see some who do not agree with Rob Bell using John 14:6 to support their view that everyone won't be with God. But, there is another verse where Jesus was talking about people coming to God and that is John 12:32. He said, "if I be lifted up from the earth (on the cross) I will draw all men unto myself". Perhaps Jesus was driving home the point that just being born into a certain ethnic group or keeping the law, will get no one to the Father. However, if Christ draws all to Himself then all will get there. Paul said it like this..of Him, through Him and to Him are all things.
If we humans we to "judge/discipline" our children like many say God will judge and discipline His, we would go to jail. My story of coming out of the depressing teaching of eternal torment is on my wedsite. http://www.scaredofhell.com/index.html
Just something to keep in mind... "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21). After all, just saying how much better you are than others in that you've made the "decision" to believe in God is a sin of pride in itself.
Your "logic" makes sense about love and torture, but the fact is, is that you have to throw out what the Bible says to believe it. Which is an option and each individuals perogative. What Rob Bell does is say that this view is expressed Biblically and it is not! That is simply dishonest! Is dishonesty a new Christian value? I struggle myself with the same things and how they could be reconciled. For me, read the scriptures, say what they say, if there is a seeming contradiction, allow it to remain something you don't understand, or simply state you don't believe the Bible.
So, is Anne Frank burning in Hell for all eternity, and if so, why? If your God would allow that, He is a monster. That's your choice. I've made mine-----God is not a monster. Love Wins. (This is a "reply" to Ricardo G. Pessoa)
I didn't make a comment about what I believed or what "my God" would do. I simply said Rob Bells book is not Biblical although he says it is. So which is it for you: 1. You don't believe what the Bible says about hell 2. Or you are going to be dishonest like Rob and twist the scriptures to say what you want it to?
HERE ARE ALL THE NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES ON HELL - Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Luke 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell. Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. 2 Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
> John's Thoughts: > "...I simply said Rob Bells book is not Biblical although he says it is. > So which is it for you: > 1. You don't believe what the Bible says about hell > 2. Or you are going to be dishonest like Rob and > twist the scriptures to say what you want it to?
I choose option number 3. You don't know what you are talking about.
But, just for fun, please tell us the page number of Rob's book where Rob claims there is no hell. Also, please quote it for us right here so we can all see it.
If you don't back up your slander with some facts then you are surely in danger of hell fire yourself for bearing false witness against Rob.
Exactly, battersea! One of the most Christlike individuals the human race has ever been blessed with, gentle, forgiving, and yet, according to Mr. Pessoa, she spends eternity in perdition (with her murderer) simply for being raised and remaining a Jew.
Disagree? You'll get no measured, reasoned, considered response. Rather, boilerplate scripture will be angrily flung at you along with smug admonitions in caps (I've got mine, jack!)
Ok, lets get one thing completely straight. God does not judge us based on whether or not we have heard of Jesus. What he judges us on, is our actions and whether or not we meet his perfect standard. Now the Bible is explicitly clear on this, that ALL have SINNED and fallen short of that standard. We have all chosen to break God's laws, and as a holy and righteous God, he must punish lawbreakers. Because God's standards are infinitely high, the punishment must be equal to that, so Hell is the only just answer. Now, as for the question of what happens to the 'poor' muslim/hindu/buddist/atheist/theoretical person living in the middle of nowhere without any other human contact who gets dragged into these debates/catholic/any other religion, in fact everyone in general who lives a 'good' life working hard to please whatever 'god' they believe in or if they do not believe in a god, then their own moral standards, the answer is very clear. Nothing we can do can ever compensate for our breaking God's perfect law. And any attempt at trying to 'balance' our 'bad deeds' with our 'good deeds' only works against us, because we are basically saying to God that we know better than him, and can earn our own salvation. However, God is also love, and in his mercy provided a way out by sending his son Jesus to do what we could not, which is to atone for our sin. Because he was without sin, his sacrifice was sufficient to cover ALL sin for ALL eternity, and it is free to all. However most do not accept this because they still want to try and earn their way to God's favour, and do not REPENT of their sin. Those who do REPENT from their sins and put their faith in the work of Jesus, will be allowed to enter heaven, not because of anything they have done, but because of the work of Jesus. EVERYONE else will be judged according to their deeds and will be found wanting, and will be sentanced to an eternity in hell. If you disagree with this, then you do not understand who God is, or worse, you have broken the second commandment and have made a god in your own image who fits what you believe. I understand this is a hard doctrine to come to terms with, but it is essential to understanding the gospel. Rob Bell is a heretic because he denies the truth of the Bible and has changed the word of God to suit his own post-modern agenda. I pray that you would walk away from this nonsense, and would instead pick up the Bible which will do far more good for your soul. Meet with the REAL God, one who is Holy and Just, but also Merciful and has provided you with an escape from hell. Now that you know the truth, you are without excuse.
"Ok, lets get one thing completely straight. God does not judge us based on whether or not we have heard of Jesus. "
Okay, so far, so good.
"Now, as for the question of what happens to the 'poor' muslim/hindu/buddist/atheist/theoretical person living in the middle of nowhere without any other human contact who gets dragged into these debates/catholic/any other religion,..."
Oh, good, you're going to address the question of infinite punishment from limited knowledge.
"Those who do REPENT from their sins and put their faith in the work of Jesus, will be allowed to enter heaven..."
Uh, I notice you didn't address this question after all (those who haven't heard of Jesus, or are raised in a different faith). That's okay , I'm really used to that.
"I understand this is a hard doctrine to come to terms with..."
No, it's an impossible doctrine to understand, which is evident in the fact that you don't address the very question you yourself raised.
> "Rob Bell is a heretic because he denies the truth of > the Bible and has changed the word of God to suit > his own post-modern agenda."
Liars are going to be sent to hell. Don't you know that, boy?
Rob Bell has denied no truth in the Bible and has changed no words of God in his book. Gosh, that sure makes you look like a liar. I don't want to believe you are lying to us. I also don't want you to go straight to hell for your outrageous sins against God's commandment concerning false witness so please tell us the page number in Rob's book and also please give us the exact quote in the book where Rob Bell denied the truth and changed the word of God.
> Brian Hayes says: > "Craig, why do so many of these people feel confidant > pontificating on someone else's relationship to Hell, and > not seeming to worry about their own?"
Its because they are worshipping themselves and their own ego instead of God. They are using the name of God for their own personal gratification and they don't like anyone challenging that convenient, comfortable, self-serving world view. I'm totally amazed at how these people feel that their self-declared salvation automatically and suddenly makes them smarter than all the rest of us. So smart, in fact, that they don't even have to read the book before complaining about it. They think of God as their own personal vending machine - put in a few coins, pull the knob, and out comes a prize. It is arrogance to the extreme.
Rob Bell himself said it best:
"When people say that the authority of Scripture or the centrality of Jesus is in question, actually it's their social, economic and political system that has been built in the name of Jesus that's being threatened," Bell says. "Generally lurking below some of the more venomous, vitriolic criticism is somebody who's created a facade that's not working."