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54 of 59 people found the following review helpful:
4.0 out of 5 stars
Excellent set of raw data, without much context, August 6, 2005
This review is from: The Separation of Church and State: Writings on a Fundamental Freedom by America's Founders (Hardcover)
Mr. Church serves more as editor of source materials in the time of our nation's founding; the bulk of this book is dedicated to presenting the founding fathers' and framers' opinions regarding the eventually established American ideal regarding religious freedom, with very little context added by Mr. Church. His short analyses though are spot-on. Mr. Church's book presents, in their own words, essays and letters from: Patrick Henry (an enemy of religious freedom and some of our founding ideals), Sam Adams, George Mason, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, George Washington, and others. It also includes the Treaty of Tripoli initiated by Washington's administration but ratified by Adams after being unanimously ratified by the 5th Congress which expressly defines the U.S. as "not being in any sense founded on the Christian religion". The preponderance of evidence collected in this book strongly favors the fact that our framers (not neccesarily our founders like Henry), were enlightened gentleman suspicious of organized religion, but respectful of humanaity's need for faith, and that a relationship between religion and government led to corruption of religion and the derprivation of freedom to citizens and thus the need to separate the two institutions as much as possible. Being an avid student on this topic, I can state unequivocably that Mr. Church's assessment is accurate relative to the framers' historic desire to secularize government. Mr. Church even presents Madison's post-Presidential memorandum on his admitted hypocrisy regarding his re-establishing national days of prayer during the build-up to the War of 1812 and the fear that elicited. The book is light in available source material regarding the majority of our leading framer's express desire to seperate church and state in hopes that religion would evolve to a faith in line with scientific fact that believed in a God of universal grace rather than the God described by fundamentalist Christians (then called Trinitarians) and that disestablishing religion was considered necessary in order that Citizens had the "freedom of conscience" to evolve to a more unitarian, if not deistic, faith already shared by our enlightened founders. It is surprising Mr. Church doesn't explore this more fully given that he is a long-time Unitarian Minister with a Ph.D. in Early Church history and editor of "Thomas Jefferson's Bible", suggesting he's completely up to the task. This is an excellent book to own and I highly recommend it because of its wealth of source data, all in a tiny book, 157 pages in a small footprint. It however is assuredly NOT the definitive book on the relationship between church and state due to its limited scope and incompleteness of source material (.e.g, it's missing Madison vetoing faith-based charities as President along with the failed efforts to extend constitutional power to the gov't through a particular sect's version of God v. gov't deriving power directly from "We the People"), however since I haven't found that perfect book on this subject, one can't be too critical of Mr. Church. For those of you that have been duped into believing the Dobson/Moore/Robertson propaganda that our government was divinely established to Christianize the world based on fundamentlist beliefs, I would recommend this book as well. The framers quoted here belong to all of us, possessing their words, with very little editorializing by Mr. Church makes this book a very un-controversial book that will hopefully enlighten you and motivate you to further research the veracity of today's religious right propagandists v. what legitimate scholars and historians publish. While reading this book I suggest thinking about the electability of some of America's greatest generation of statesmen: the words of Madison, Jefferson, Adams, and Washington would make them certainly UNELECTABLE in today's world where politicans are forced to kneel down to the dogma of belief in a theistic, vengeful God as defined by a primitive sect of Christians to even have a chance of getting past the primaries. While a deistic Jefferson and Madison or unitarian Adams could be elected then and were able to establish our precious American ideals, these men wouldn't stand a chance today, our loss in my humble opinion.
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20 of 24 people found the following review helpful:
3.0 out of 5 stars
Religious Freedom for All, July 20, 2006
This review is from: The Separation of Church and State: Writings on a Fundamental Freedom by America's Founders (Hardcover)
Forrest Church is a Unitarian minister and historian who believes strongly in the American tradition of church state separation. He wrote this book to include actual words taken from several influential individuals from the early days of the United States, illustrating how and why each of these people felt so strongly about the importance of preventing intermingling of church and state. Many important individuals are mentioned in this book with Thomas Jefferson and James Madison receiving the bulk of the coverage. The reason these two are singled out should be obvious: They were two of the most influential of all in the writing of the U.S. Constitution and their firm stance in favor of religious liberty was unyielding. Of the two men, Jefferson was the most insistent that church and state remain as far apart as possible and it isn't surprising that three of the book's chapters are dedicated to him. Jefferson wrote many letters about this topic and among the nation's many founders, he was the most instrumental at keeping religion and government from joining forces. Most of the names mentioned in this book are well- known from American history but there are a few surprises. I did not know the names Richard Price or John Caleb until I read this book but I can understand why each was included. Both of these men were high- ranking and very influential religious ministers and they were both convinced that church and state should never be allowed to mix. This is similar to the sentiments expressed by others in this book. But the difference is that these two individuals were ministers and their feelings add credibility to the church/state separation issue. Even though they were both ministers and believed religion was a very important part of society, they also knew religion and politics made dangerous bedfellows. Give one religious group control of governmental laws and all other religious views will not only be silenced, their fundamental freedoms will be lost. These wise men knew that it was better to keep religion out of the laws completely, both for the good of the nation and for the good of churches and religiously- minded individuals. Probably the main thing I like about this book is the fact that it includes the actual text taken from the various letters, speeches, essays, etc. that each of these men composed relating to church/state separation. The reason I like this is because it puts to rest any claims that the words of these men have been "taken out of context". I have heard many of the small quotations taken from different letters and essays, like Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists and the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom and most everyone else has heard these famous quotations as well. Those who are opposed to church/state separation often try to say that these pro separation quotes are taken out of context- that the person who spoke or wrote them didn't really mean what he said. But here, author Forrest Church has taken these letters, speeches, and essays and presented them in their entirety (the exception is Washington's farewell address, which is presented in condensed form). This way, the reader can read the entire document and clearly see that there is nothing taken out of context. When, for example, Jefferson told the Danbury Baptists that the U.S. Constitution was explicitly worded in a way that builds a "wall of separation between church and state", he really meant what he said. Reading the entire text of the letters sent back and forth between Jefferson and the Danbury Baptists, it is very clear how Jefferson felt about church/state relations. Besides the actual letters and essays, most of the remainder of this book is old news that the majority of Americans have heard before. We all know how the early founders generally wanted to keep church and state separate (there were some exceptions, but they were outvoted) and how they believed that religion was a very personal decision that should never be interfered with from government. So, other than letting the reader absorb the entire text of these leader's speeches, there really isn't much new in this book. It is really just a history refresher on the problems of church and state and how the U.S. Constitution explicitly calls for separation of the two entities. One other problem I have with this book is its short length. It is only 160 pages in length and it contains contributions from only about ten or eleven different men. It is also very small in size, with dimensions that are similar to those of a handbook and a length that needs to be about twice as long to make it more effective. It's nice to read these letters in their entirety and it's good to read more proof that America was intended by its founders to have a secular government. But more proof and the inclusion of more articles from other intellectuals of the time would make the book more thorough and more believable. Overall, I like "The Separation of Church and State" and I think it's a good reference book for those who are in favor of church/state separation and need some ammunition to take on the pro- theocratic people who feel that America would be best served if its Constitution and laws included more specific religious doctrine. It would be a better book if it included quotes from more people and if its length was about double. But it is still a good book to read about the never- ending debate of church/state separation and it makes a good handbook and reference guide for understanding this important subject.
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15 of 19 people found the following review helpful:
4.0 out of 5 stars
Historical Proof that the United States was NOT Founded as a Christian Nation, October 14, 2006
This review is from: The Separation of Church and State: Writings on a Fundamental Freedom by America's Founders (Hardcover)
Forrest Church, a Unitarian minister and historian, has pulled together a nice sampling of letters, documents, and legal briefs from the early days of the United States of America (both pre- and post-Constitution) that lays out how most of our founding generations felt about the separation of church and state--they were very much opposed to religion mixing with government and politics. Mr. Church has presented the material in chronological order, and he introduces each piece to highlight its contextual setting and importance. These are more than just the familiar quotes, these pieces in their whole so that the complete context of what is said is there for the examination. Included are number chapters on some the most recognizable figures important in the separation of church and state debate, including Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, John Adams, Patrick Henry and James Madison; but, what makes this book more useful are the lesser known public and religious leaders included: Isaac Backus, Caleb Wallace, and George Mason among others. The separation of church and state was a hot topic open for much debate in our founding days. Most of the original colonies prior to and into the Revolution, had laws on the books that sanctioned a state religion, usually the Anglican Church, and collected taxes that paid the clergy. As King George's yoke was being thrown off during the Revolution, our fledgling country debated itself on the meaning of freedom and liberty, and religious freedom was of utmost importance for our founders. What makes this book important is that instead of being a thick volume of every conceivable reference to our freedom of and from religion that only an historian would glance at, this book is of the perfect size and length that a layperson can read it and learn for his or herself how important it is that we keep government out of religion and more importantly that we keep religion out of government. >>>>>>><<<<<<< A Guide to my Book Rating System: 1 star = The wood pulp would have been better utilized as toilet paper. 2 stars = Don't bother, clean your bathroom instead. 3 stars = Wasn't a waste of time, but it was time wasted. 4 stars = Good book, but not life altering. 5 stars = This book changed my world in at least some small way.
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