Customer Reviews

Shadowrun 3rd Edition RPG

5 star:		(20)
4 star:		(6)
3 star:		(2)
2 star:		(2)
1 star:		(0)

 

 

I'd like to mention a few downsides and upsides not covered in other reviews. I've had the book for a couple months now, and own Street Magic as well -- I'm eagerly awaiting other supplements!

The stories and examples are well-written, both to give important information to the reader and just as fiction. The book paints a good picture. A gamebook that you can read over and over (while finding out what you need to know) is a big plus.

Yes, the die-rolling system in this book is much like White Wolf's latest series. I hate what White Wolf did with it; it's bare, unevocative and unrealistic. I cringed when I saw it in Shadowrun 4th Ed., but after two months of use, I can say that Shadowrun's is enjoyable. It's easier to adjust, easier to figure odds. Modifiers listed in the book all make sense. And the system is definitely an improvement over 3rd edition.

I haven't had any trouble with using the die-rolling system in combat. I think removal of the "pools" from previous editions is less realistic overall, but not drastically so, and anyway we're talking about a world with dragons, AIs, and biotech that can't feed the planet but can turn people into killing machines. =)

The index is well-written. I have a degree in library science -- I'm a finder of information professionally -- and I'm more than a little partial to a rulebook that actually helps me look up rules. Also, the book is well-made physically -- unlike, say, GURPS 4th edition it won't disintegrate in your hands.

There's not much of a gameworld update -- everything having gone wireless is pretty much the limit of what this book describes. That's fine by me, since that one thing was (to my mind) a major lack in previous editions. Also, the one major change is important to many other aspects of the game, like combat, control of robot drones, and team communication.

There are minor typos throughout the book that aren't addressed in the errata. Whatever; the meaning is clear even with them there, and I say that as a nitpicker.

I rate very little at five stars (didn't even give that to the book my girlfriend wrote, and I've got a vested interest there!) ... Shadowrun 4th Edition definitely deserves it.

I have been involved with Shadowrun since 1990 and am considered something of an expert as well as a semi-obsessive collector of all things Shadowrun.

Here are my two cents.

The flavor/style/background of this product ties in directly with the past editions of shadowrun. However,the rules have been fundamentally reworked.

RULE CHANGES (Technical Information): The element of chance has been increased dramatically due to the fact that all target numbers are set at 5+ (on a d6 die). Modifiers are subsequently incorporated by adding/taking away dice for the test. Tests utilize not only skill ratings (in dice) but attribute ratings (in dice) rolled together for tests. Damage is now a standard number of "condition boxes" which changes according to opposed test results. Skills and attributes now have absolute maximums. Most individual differences in the past editions of the game (Shaman vs. Mage conjuring abilities, Bioware Body index vs Cyberware Essence, Hacker (Decker) vs. Rigger, etc...) have been made equivalent and simplified). The Matrix rules have finally been made at least semi-playable (after years of laughable attempts) These were most of the significant changes made in this edition.

MY OPINION: I have mixed feelings about this new edition. The new matrix / augmented reality rules improved this unplayable ruleset quite a bit (although they force most characters to utilize the computer interface whether they like it or not). After playtesting the new combat system, I was a bit dissappointed. The increased element of chance and +/- die modifier system produces combat with uncertain results. (i.e. Gamemaster difficulty in scaling encounters) Character generation is more enjoyable due to the ability to heavily customize characters. The reduction of all character augmentations (spells, adept abilities, cyber and bioware) to the same set of rules/modifiers was somewhat of an improvement.

Overall I would say that I am ambivalent about this new edition. It will be interesting to see if FanPro produces quality supplements for 4th edition in the future, given the simplification of the rulesets.

I've been playing Shadowrun since 3rd edition and had gotten the rules on that down to about a dozen solid pages of rules adjustments and tweaks. So a new version was something I was hoping to see fix a lot of things. Yet to truly try it out, but so far it looks nice. Feels a lot like the Story Teller system from White WOlf in basic looks (fixed TN, amount of dice mods, # of success based, min. number of success based, attribute + Skill). But it still manages to keep the shadowrun feel alive, with a lot of gear adjusting what you can and can't do. (Though so far it looks like you need do with less then 3rd, where you could easily fill a full page with just gear from bullets to cyber implant routers). Some of that still exists (4 items are needed to get the matrix(computer network) overlay, the computer, it's OS (?!), some sort of image device like glasses, and then an image link on that device. Though some things have been streamed down, and the wireless helps a lot. Overall the biggest change is the new wireless matrix, which at first felt a little fishy and has a few holes. Not anywhere enough time has passed from a major economic and social disaster to suddenly have a massive wireless network pop up in 5 years, even if it is replacing the damaged computer networks. Using the wireless computers for ID feels... kinda risky too. THe origin of Technomancers (sort of, living wireless computers) is kinda fishy, but it works. The art is in my opinion a vast improvement too. Magic seems to have gotten a streamline... though the Turn to Goo spell already gives me shivers... So far I'm really liking it, a very 1984 twist given to Shadowrun, where vast amoutns of data about anyone quickly collect and Big Brother is everywhere. If you liked Shadowrun before, I'd say give it a look atleast. If you haven't, you might like what you see. if you haven't ever read shadowrun, it's a good introduction with everything you need to play.

The year is 2060 and Megacorps rule the world. Governments are weakened and factions are rising that have consolidated territory for themselves. Man and machine now run in harmony from the computer generated world of the Matrix to replacing limbs or body parts for the newest, grooviest and deadliest piece of hardware. But more importantly the most Earth shattering change to life as we know it is the return of magic.

The new awakening has given rise to the return of old races. Elves, Dwarves, Orks and Trolls walk among us. Magic can now be wielded like a tool by Shamans and Adepts. Mundanes are not without there own arsenal with many deadly weapons from pistols to heavy cannons.

I love Shadowrun, it mixes the cyberpunk culture with Elves, Orks and magic very nicely. The combat system is a welcome divergence from the tired D20 system. This RPG game has a great setting and a good system which has given many players and GM's hours of fun. A good thing is that you can run Shadowrun just from this one book, which leaves supplements as an option not a necessity.

This version continues with the heart of Shadowrun's earlier editions (I have played versions 1, 2 and 3) and refines a number of rules.
1) Rolls are more straight forward and common across magic, shooting, etc
2) Telecommunication, matrix and rigger technology is considerable refined to be more realistic with what might be given current technology. (This promotes deckers to actually join the team on some runs).
3) Technomancers have been added from the novels.
4) Build points, as well as qualities, provide the ability to have characters that are more diverse and still balance. All Archtypes have been built to the standard 400 BP.

My one negative thing to say is that we jumped from 2064 to 2070 with little idea of what happened in between.

While the characters are less powerful compared to previous editions, I find them to be better balanced. A GM who wants to have characters more comparable to earlier editions (in terms of starting power) need simply adjust the beginning build point value upwards.

While characters from earlier editions will need come tweaking to be compatable with 4th edition rules, this is unavoidable due to the positive changes to the rules and technological advances.. Much like comparing that 386 computer you have in the garage to the one you use now, some upgrades are definitely worthwhile.
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Point of note regarding mathmatics and probability. In an earlier review it was stated that the changes to the rolls resulted in a 33% failure rate "at a standard task for a character with an average attribute and adequate training in a skill". That is not correct. If an unskilled (skill level 0) person with an average attribute (3) attempts a basic test they have a 20 in 36 chance of success. 2 dice for 5 or 6 (-1 dice for defaulting).

If an average person (attribute 3) who is a beginner at a skill (level 1) attempts a simple task (threshold 1) they get 4 dice and need only one 5 or 6 for success (about 77% chance of success).

The skill checks are easily modified to difficulty or detail by threshhold while retaining a reasonable range of probability based upon natural aptitude and skill.
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Let's talk about Shadowrun. An old FASA game, Shadowrun for years languished in that terrible state that can consume a game when a fantastic world is saddled with a horrid rule system. An amazing and vibrant setting, Shadowrun had a rule's system so pathetic that after two or more years of playing it, I had never even learned how to handle damage. This is not the first game that I didn't try to learn while playing. The is the first game where I succeeded in remaining ignorant. I had my rules lawyer friend to give me character development ideas and I knew how to spend karma. The Game was so obfuscated under its own byzantine system of exceptions that no amount of time playing was able to batter its way through my rules-ambivalence. That was version one or two. I never played three.

For those that don't know, Shadowrun is a magical cyberpunk game set in a future where magic has returned to earth and Japanese corporations threaten to consume American life (which is on the ropes anyway because the country has fractured). Most games take place in the line's signature city of Seattle and it hinges around the Shadowrun. In a typical Shadowrun, a nameless corporate suit, called Mr. Johnson as a matter of tradition and convenience, hires the Shadowrunners to do some deed. A Shadowrun is any illegal or quasi-legal activity, most typically some for of corporate espionage, theft, sabotage or kidnapping. Come on, Chummer. You know you want play.

So how's version four?

Well, let's start by saying that from what I understand, Fanpro, the holder of the current license, took a wise approach to releasing this product. They released the eBook version of the game on August 31st, and by the 1st of September, their first errata list was available online. They revised the game and released it nine days later after getting initial feedback from their fanbase. Only then did they release the print version. While this isn't enough to get a full playtest out of their customers, it is enough to make sure that the print book had been throughly combed for inconsistencies and unclear test. So, did this trick give them the product they wanted?

Well, let's take a walk through the book, shall we?

After a piece of opening fic and your standard "What is a Roleplaying Game" fare, the book moves on to immediately play to its strength: the Setting. It starts with a history chapter, which advances the Shadowrun timeline to the year 2070. In this section they manage to incorporate modern real world tech into the world that the game previously missed (wireless, anyone?) and advance the world to a slightly newer age. Forgive me if I don't know how far this leapt beyond third edition, but it's a fine an necessary section. Next comes the obligatory section on the world in general, after which a new player should have some idea what's going on in this awakened setting.

Next you'll see the game concepts. Here is where the system take a leap beyond what I've played in the past. All fives and sixes are "hits" now instead of basing all target numbers on enemy stats. You roll a skill check by adding your stat and skill together and rolling that many d6. The more "hits" the better the result. For instance, if you have a three reaction and a three dodge and you try to dodge an attack, you roll six dice and you will probably score two "hits." These would be subtracted from the enemy attack to determine if they landed their. "Hits" also add to damage, and once the damage is figured out, the character rolls his dice to soak. It's very simple, isn't burdened with the exceptions of previous version. Most of all, it's intuitive. If you've read half the rules of the game, you could fake the other half. Elegant.
Next the game walks you through creating a Shadowrunner. This is a straightforward process and it has decent safeties installed to make certain that character's aren't too min-maxed. Still, most every character will be min-maxed, because it is foolish not to. A linear system is used to create characters, where raising a stat from four to five typically costs as much as raising from one to two. Since during play one has to deal with diminishing returns, the game begs you to min-max. Of course, many games do.

After character creation, the game presents some sample characters and skills. The is a handy section, especially for players of previous versions thinking in an "old mode." Deckers are gone and now are just called hackers. There are technomages, who build personas as agents in the net, but a hacker is all a team needs. Better yet, the hacking system is now a straightforward skill system, which means that every time you plan a run, you don't have to run a solo adventure of the decker, alone in the net, running a massive scenario. Since this fragmented every game I've ever played with a decker, I applaud the change. Give me a few rolls and move on.

Next the game explores combat. Combat in the new system is simple, fast and easy. Unlike other versions, it's actually possible to kill anyone with any weapon (you might have to spend an edge, sort of a luck stat, to get the exploding dice necessary is you don't have the base damage or skill). Damage is easy and straightforward (I've played in two combats now and, alas, I already understand it. The game has a few innovations, as well. It uses a pass system to deal with multiple attacks, where everyone goes once, then everyone with actions left go again, and then again, and so on until no one has actions left. This isn't the first game to use such a system, but it is the first game I've personally seen that had one that didn't completely break the movement system. If you are going to attack an enemy and you have three attacks and they have only one, you still move in step together through the initiative phases despite the discrepancy in number of action. Initiative is easy. Attacks and damage are easy. None of it makes me stare and shake my head at poor design. In other words, a world above previous versions.
Next is the Awakened World section, where you can play a mage or a shaman or an adept (a sort of magically-enhanced warrior) or a mystic adept (which is a mage/adept). I have no complaints about the magic system, other than to say many people are going to wait for future supplements for Fanpro to reintroduce new version of the magical specialties they want. I suppose that is unavoidable.

Then the Wireless World, a section on the net. I've already expressed my opinions on what they've done with hacking, so I'll move on.
Running the Shadows, the section on GMing. Let me take a moment to point out the one thing that is still pretty broken about this game . . . spending karma. In former versions of Shadowrun, stats did not help skills and I think they haven't fully shaken that mentality. A trait costs 3x its target to raise, an active skill 2x and a knowledge skill 1x. Now, in a system when one trait can give you a bonus to a dozen different skills, charging only 50% more than a skill just doesn't make any sense. Why would anyone every raise a skill before their stats top out? The other big problem here is that the cost is based on the end total, not the number of times you've raise the trait. For instance, if you make a troll character and only put one in strength, you will have a five due to the race's bonuses. If you have a human with the same stat, you've put five points into strength and your maximum is six. But it costs the same amount of points to raise both characters, despite the fact that this is the simplest effort for a troll and the supreme culmination of human ability for his counterpart. You might have to make house rules for both of these sections. Otherwise, all trolls with be completely min-maxed and all other characters will spend all their karma on traits.

Then there is a friends and foes section dealing with NPCs and monsters and the like. Finally, the section on street gear. Tech is a little more advanced in this version (due to the advancing of the timeline and therefore the state of the art) and the rules are different enough that all the old books are now likely useless where rules are concerned. The main problem I have here is a certain incompletelness. For instance, if you want to buy drugs, you won't find prices in the new book. On the forums, people say they are using their third edition books for the missing prices, but for new players, it's on-the-fly pricing or nothing.
The main problems with this game are spending karma and a lack of compatibility with the massive tonnage of books that some players already have. The first they could have avoided, but the second was probably a lost cause. Old versions of the game labored under ridiculously badly-designed rule systems and I think it's unlikely they could fix this without losing that backward compatibility.

So, in conclusion, this new edition is what people like me have been waiting for for years. My most anti-Shadowrun friend is playing the new version with glee. Finally, Shadowrun advocates don't have to be Shadowrun apologists. If the rules have held you back from buying the game in the past, get it. If you're a longstanding player, I'd still recommend it, but know it will render most of the rules in your existing Shadowrun library obsolete.

An upgraded background

The year is now 2070, and many things have happened in the shadows since 3rd edition was released. The comet came and went, SURGE gave birth to changelings, the balance of corporate power shifted a bit, sending some former giants into oblivion, and acknowledging new ones (worry not, Villiers, Knight and Lofwyr are still around :D), the old Matrix crashed, replaced by the new wireless one, the deckers are old history, and the Otakus grew up.

Although efficient and down to earth, the background is somewhat light... but hey, did you expect to know all the secrets of the sixth world in the core book ? And then, light as it is, you still get enough of it to understand what living in the Shadows feel like - the individual stories scattered through the book work wonders for that.
I suppose that in the end, you've got a fine balance in the amount of information available : enough so that GMs and players get a good feel at the atmosphere, not so much as there is nothing left to be discovered.
On top of that, Fastjack himself does the History lesson. Now, if that isn't an honour :D

My only complaint is that there is (still) no "typical shadow remuneration grid" that would help the GMs work out how many nuyens their players are going to make out of that run... You'll have to figure that yourself.
Also, there is no introductory adventure, but Fanpro publishes "Missions" regularly on the shadowrun website (www.shadowrunrpg.com).


At (long) last the rules are fixed

The updating the rules makes most of the 4th edition book, and Fanpro has done a fantastic job at that.

In my opinion, the main changes would be that :
(1) Target Number is always 5. The number of "hits" determines the level of success. Equipment that formerly gave a reduced TN (smartlinked guns, for example) now give additionnal dice - that way, your street samurai will stop getting those really cool but unrealistic 10 hits whenever he uses his Ares Predator... Also, you'll get a chance at soaking some damage, even though you're not wearing a complete security armor...
(2) Attributes are a lot (A LOT !) more important. Every time you use a skill, you roll Attribute + Skill dice. That makes attributes really useful, when they used to be there only to determine your Combat Pool. As a consequence, they are also more expensive to buy at creation and to improve with Karma.
(3) No more pools. Yep, that's it, no more combat pool. However, you can now dodge attacks to help you resist those nasty bullets. Some OTT weapons (sniper rifle, anyone ?) have also been reajusted (still nasty, though... But no so much that you hesitate using one as a GM :D). Also, no more Sorcery pool to help you cope with Drain : instead, you resist with Willpower and another mental attribute, depending on your tradition (mages with logic, shamans with Charisma : I can see more elves becoming shaman already...).
(4) Deckers... er, sorry, Hackers, can actually move, and even shoot and run while hacking. They can choose between 2 modes : Augmented Reality, that lets them do things in the real world as well, and complete Virtual Reality (the old mode we're all familiar with). As it is still more effective to go full VR, I'm not sure the new Matrix rules will totally succeed in making electronic combat phases less boring for non-hacking types, but it certainly is a step forward !
(5) The strength of the PCs has been reviewed down, meaning they will have to work a bit harder to become those bad-ass supermen some powergamers were able to make with SR3 (trolls are still waaaaay too powerful for what they cost : perhaps the Troll Street Sam is to remain that icon of popular powergaming culture...).
(6) On top of that, there are some fine tunings of various impact : Cyberware/Bioware costs have been adjusted, both in nuyens and essence, the initiative has been rationalised a bit, a spellcaster chooses the strength they're gonna cast a spell at at the moment of the casting, etc...

Rules are also presented in a structured and logical way, there are many examples along the book, an index, etc...


Overall excellent. I found the art to be so-so (certainly not as good as SR3 or Bradstreet's B&W in SR2), but that shouldn't distract you from the fantastic job that Fanpro has done overhauling and rationalising the game mechanics.
This game is now a lot more balanced and realistic, smoother while still satisfactorily simulationnist, finally entering the age of reason.
Take it from there.

Shadowrun has always been about change, adaptation, and growing from the issues of the past. With each new edition that has arrived since the game's conception back in 1989, a new set of rules, more stream lined, more focused on fun rather than rule mongering, has arisen. Shadowrun 4th edition is the biggest rule change yet.

Vet's to the game who enjoyed the game for it's rule's, not it's gaming world, have voiced their distaste for the game. I myself was very skeptical of these completely new rules. Let me clarify now, this game has indeed evolved, and these new rules are a step in the right direction. Players of games like Vampire: the Masquarde/the Requiem, Werewolf: the Apocalypse/the Forsaken, and other World of Darkness 1.0 and 2.0 games wil find these rules a bit familiar and comforting.

Dice tests are no long single skills with the hopeful adding of a combat or specialty dice pool. Instead, tests are made combining attributes and skills into a combined pool, and all tests aim for the same Target Number "Hit" of 5. Modifiers just add or take away dice now, and the rule of one has been completly reworked.

Thus, all vets to the game line will have to learn a whole new set of rules if htey want to stay alive in the shadows, but that's something they should be used to, adaptation.

New Gamers will find these new rule sets much easier to approach than the older sets. While it feels like character creation is more complicated (which is something shadowrun has been known for), gameplay is smoother, the game suffers less from the same old "specialty classes getting so much alone time while they do their thing and everyone else gets a big break". Instead, with augmented realty (a trend most sci fi groups seem to be taking these days in Cyberpunk games and stories), groups find their Matrix has joined them in the real world.

The reason this game loses a star is because there is a standard warning of skepticism. Vets should be warned of the issues with the changed rules. If you loved the rules system and not the game, this isn't an edition you want to pick up. If you want to adapt, and learn a more stream lined system, pick this book up, or go buy the PDF eBook and debate if it's worth your money to buy the physical book follow up.

I've played an amalgam of roleplaying games and the original problem with Shadowrun 2nd/3rd editions was the attrocious organization of the material.

While I feel the rules were unnecessarily simplified, the organization was finally put straight and therefore the game becomes much more enjoyable.

I also feel the combat system lost some measure, but if you
plan on running the games you can always edit and modify the
rules to your own needs. Thankfully, with the new organization,
you can find what you need without playing hopscotch through
an entire manual.

Kudos to the makers.

Shadowrun is a roll playing game set in a cyberpunk world to which magic, elves orcs and the rest of the D&D hootenanny have been added. Instead of using swords in dank dungeons the players use machine guns in shopping malls. If you like RPG's it is a great game. This thought, the 4th edition, is unnecessary.

The game itself first came out in 1989 with a great concept and mind numbingly complicated rules that were trimmed down to something very playable and easy to work with in 2nd and even 3rd editions. The fact the game has survived almost 20 years while staying virtually intact from its original theme shows that it has hit a cord with gamers, and even though the original company has gone under, this has survived as a marketable property being saved by succeeding companies.

The problem is this edition. The fourth edition was not needed. Another company bought the game and instead of extending the existing game world they decided to try and gouge more money from the target audience by issuing all new, expensive, hardcover, core books under the title of 4th Edition.

Beyond the blatant money grab by the latest publisher this is doubly insulting because it wasn't needed. In fact while some people do like the changes to the rules, they seem to just make some things needlessly complicated. For example under the old system in a challenge you would roll a number of dice equal to your skill level. Now it is skill plus ability combined and...It really only serves to add steps. The first Ed had these steps and they might be more realistic, if that term can be used for an event where a character uses a mini-gun to shoot at a troll coming through the window of a mall negligee store, but they serve to slow down play as characters scramble to remember what skills combine with what attribute for what act.

In short I'd have far more respect for this if the publishers had just put out a supplement working on the 3rd Edition to explain the changes in the rules for computer hacking. To be fair this part does work well and seems to fix what was always the weakest part of the earlier game system, but this could have just been a suppliment to 3rd ed. As it is, they wanted you to lay out lots of money all over again for the basic rules which they have change enough to justify this, but have not changed for the better.

Shadowrun is a great RPG. The 4th Ed is a great example of the saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."