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Initial post: Apr 13, 2007 6:50:13 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 15, 2007 5:53:08 PM PDT
xyz says:
Tom Riddle and Eileen Prince were both at Hogwarts 50 years ago. Tom was cruel and dominating but handsome and popular. Eileen was Captain of the Gobstones Club, homely and unpopular.

Tom sees Eileen as an easy mark and lures her into the bushes. He seduces her and then dumps her. At graduation, Eileen is broken-hearted.

Once out of Hogwarts, Eileen discovers she is pregnant but she knows better than to tell Tom who would just laugh at her. She marries the first man to walk past her house. The guy works at the local muggle gas station. His name is Tobias Snape.

Tobias doesn't mind marrying Eileen Prince. Her parents look like they've got a few bucks. Eileen is pregnant and has a baby boy. During their rather dreary marriage Tobias discovers that his wife is a witch; his in-laws only have wizard money and the baby isn't even his. Tobias is pissified.

He makes life miserable for Eileen and Severus. One night, Tobias Snape goes out for a beer and is never seen again.

Severus grows up, goes to Hogwarts, graduates and becomes a Death Eater. He is outside a room at the Hogs Head Inn when he hears a prophecy:

THE DARK ONE IS NEAR...BORN TO A FATHER HE KNOWS NOT..SEPARATED IN LIFE, THEY WILL BE JOINED IN DEATH...THE BLOOD OF THE FATHER WILL REDEEM THE SON............
(The above are my words)
...THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD APPROACHES...BORN TO THOSE WHO HAVE THRICE DEFIED HIM, BORN AS THE SEVENTH MONTH DIES......

Aberforth, the Barkeeper, grabs Snape, pulls him away from the door, tosses him out. But Snape has heard part of the prophecy which he takes to Lord Voldemort. Both assume the entire prophecy refers ONLY to Voldemort, never realizing the first part concerns Severus Snape.

The first part of the prophecy doesn't interest Snape until his mother finally tells him her secret. His real father is Tom Riddle. Snape tells no one.

He, along with the Death Eaters follow Voldemort to Godric's Hollow but they are told to stand back. This job is for Voldemort alone. The Death Eaters see three flashes of green light and then the house explodes. When Snape rushes into the debris, he finds James Potter dead, Lily Potter dead, Voldemort gone and a baby sitting underneath a table.

Snape is horrified. He rushes to the only person he can trust to help the baby--Dumbledore. It takes time for Snape to recover from his shock but when he does, he tells Dumbledore his deadly secret. Tom Riddle aka Voldemort is Snape's father!

The movie audience gasps! Mayhem ensues. Buttered popcorn and carbonated beverages billow into the aisles. Underneath the debris, short people are screaming. The lobby doors burst open in a tidal wave of biblical proportion! SNAPE IS THE SON OF VOLDEMORT! (fade to black)

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 13, 2007 7:10:01 PM PDT
tab says:
Hi Rat I'll raise a toast to that!!! Yee Haw.

WOW you really may be on to something. Snape would be Severus Voldemort Prince. It's the whole "Luke I am your father thing". ;)

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 13, 2007 7:31:58 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author on May 21, 2007 10:43:36 AM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 13, 2007 7:44:50 PM PDT
Crazy Therory! I like it!!!

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 13, 2007 8:21:26 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 15, 2007 2:59:28 AM PDT
Ah dear Rat. Your fond dream fully realised. :-)

Why does our hero-in-dread-disguise, Snape, save the baby?

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2007 10:27:45 AM PDT
xyz says:
tab: Since humans first hit the ground running, their sins have been the basis for repeating plots in the world of fiction: From the Greek Tragedies to Shakespeare to David Copperfield to West Side Story to Star Wars to Harry Potter and beyond.

EB has groaned at the above Star Wars plot because it's "been done." But what plot in fiction hasn't been done?

I think Snape may have loved Lily Potter. But was that a secret so dangerous, he couldn't even confide it to someon in the Order of Phoenix? No, I believe it was something more than Snape's love for Lily.

What do you think?

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2007 10:35:42 AM PDT
xyz says:
CLG: Don't you think that the "finding of Baby Harry" after the tragedy was odd?

Dumbledore wanted to remove Harry before the muggles came around. He didn't want to draw attention to the scene. So he sends Hagrid, a giant?

If the Potters house was unplottable, how were the muggles supposed to see anything anyway?

Then Hagrid takes the baby but has no means of transportation. How was he supposed to deliver the baby to Dumbledore? Sirius shows up unexpectedly and lends Hagrid his motorcycle.

I may be a little slow but this makes no sense. What do you think?

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2007 10:42:54 AM PDT
xyz says:
lovesscrabble: Like young tough guys who think they know it all, Snape imagined that he was as controlled as Voldemort. Nothing would surprise him.

Then he walks into the destruction and sees people he knows (and possibly loves). Snape is stunned. These are not just targets in a shooting gallery.

Snape does what comes naturally to him. He tries to restore some order to the mess before him. He wants to save what is left of the people he knew. Snape cannot go to another Death Easter, he must go to someone he trusts.

Does this make sense to you?

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2007 11:08:11 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 15, 2007 10:54:31 AM PDT
xyz says:
ATTENTION ALL POSTERS:

There is a clue to suggest that Tom Riddle considered himself a young stud. Remember Bertha Jenkins? GOF/598-599

"He put a hex on me, Professor Dumbledore, and I was only teasing him, sir, I only said I'd seen him kissing Florence behind the greenhouse last Thursday..."

This is the only memory that Dumbledore talks to.

"But why Bertha," said Dumbledore sadly, looking at the now silently revolving girl, "why did you have to follow him in the first place?"

Even though this was a memory from the past, I think Dumbledore was addressing Bertha in the present. He knew she had tortured by Voldemort so badly that Voldemort could use neither her body nor her mind. GOF/652

Dumbledore may have had reason to believe that Bertha Jenkin's vacation to Albania was not a coincidence. Perhaps Bertha had long nursed a crush on the handsome Tom Riddle.

Bertha talked too much and Wormtail listened. He decided that he would bring his master a present. The rest, of course, is history.

NOTE: THE ABOVE HAS BEEN REVISED. BERTHA JENKINS WAS NOT AT HOGWARTS IN RIDDLE'S TIME. SHE WAS A FEW YEARS OLDER THAN SIRIUS. GOF/334 Compliments of A. Javed.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2007 11:47:45 AM PDT
Peter says:
lol did u think up that theory by yourself?

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2007 12:02:24 PM PDT
E. Watters says:
Um...isn't that not the actual words of the prophecy, though?

From Lexicon:

'The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...' (OP37)

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2007 2:05:58 PM PDT
xyz says:
50s: Yes I did. I have been nattering on about this in different threads. The inspiration came from an earlier post in another thread where someone responded with: "JKR said that Voldemort was never anyone's father.

What struck me was, not what JKR said, but what she didn't say. She didn't say that Tom Riddle was never a father.

A lot of this theory is "fill in the blanks." There are so many blanks about Snape.

The most intriguing is Snape's secret, known only by Dumbledore. I think the only other Order of the Phoenix member who might know is Mad-Eye Moody. In GOF, the imposter Mad-Eye wasn't shy about pushing Snape around and Snape accepted it.

If Snape's reason for siding with Dumbledore is love for Lily, then I think more members of the order would know and be sympathetic to Snape. They aren't. Even Professor McGonagall isn't entirely sure of Dumbledore reasoning in trusting Snape.

Now if the secret was that Riddle was Snape's father, Dumbledore could NOT tell his closest confidante. No one would trust Snape no matter how much Dumbledore championed him.

What do you think?

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2007 2:08:01 PM PDT
Peter says:
Hey Rat are you sure you arent JKR
thats probably the best theory iv heard on amazon in a long time!!!!

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2007 2:09:06 PM PDT
Well I do think that Snape definately has that cocky over confidence that Voldy has, but I dont see even a shade how anyone could think that Snape looks at all like Riddle though.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2007 2:19:01 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 14, 2007 2:22:56 PM PDT
Thor says:
Yeah...but there's a problem with this idea. Bertha never actually knew she was going to walk right into voldemort did she? It was wormtail who she initially met, and wormtail who took her to voldemort...That quote ( I don't have book 4 with me), correct me if I'm wrong, does it actually mention Tom Riddle? I don't remember it mentioning him at all. Bertha Jorkins (at least in the U.S. version that's her name), was 2 years ahead of James/Sirius (also in book 4 when Sirius talks to them outside of Hogsmeade), and Riddle was at Hogwarts like looong before that.

Anyway, the main problem with this theory is that Bertha and Tom Riddle never could have gone to school at the same time.

-Regarding Rat's theory on Bertha Jorkins

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2007 2:22:20 PM PDT
Thor says:
No, i'm sorry this is absurd. I wasn't aware that JKR said Voldemort was never anyone's father. But now that I know this, I am nearly 100% sure that by extension, this also includes Tom Riddle. From her interviews, and careful analysis of the other 6 books, it is pretty apparent that she doesn't use sensational plot lines like this.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2007 3:06:03 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 14, 2007 3:15:48 PM PDT
xyz says:
E.Watters: You are correct. That is all of the prophecy we are permitted to know.

And yes, I added the first part as an example. It is not in the book.

Dumbledore stores memories in the Pensieve, Crystal Vials and in his mind. The important ones are in his mind and he guards them with Occlumency. The Prophecy was in his mind.

We know that the Prophecy was not tampered with because there are no inconsistencies. However, where the memory begins and ends is Dumbledore's call. The memory he chose to place in the Pensieve for Harry to witness, is not complete.

HBP/545 tells us in Trelawney's words, "...but then we were rudely interrupted by Severus Snape!" Trelawney was there and she saw Snape and the barkeeper when the door opened.

Dumbledore included nothing of this in the memory he chose for Harry. So what happened?

My guess is that Dumbledore and Trelawney were interrupted after she began her prophecy. Once Snape left, Dumbledore had to perform a "skilled Legilimency" to retrieve the full prophecy from Trelawney, just as with Morfin Gaunt HBP/367.

Was there more to the original prophecy than we are lead to believe. I think so.

Another observation is that Trelawney is NOT a fraud. She has the ability to see into the future just like her great-great grandmother. It is her fear of being inadequate that causes her to blindside her own "inner eye."

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2007 3:25:28 PM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2007 3:35:18 PM PDT
xyz says:
50s: If I were JKR, I'd be at home typing expensive words on my state of the art computer. Every time I typed a word, a bell would ring and golden coins of the realm would come pouring out of my printer. :)

Thanks for the compliment. I'd really like to put this theory to the test. If you come across anything that proves or disproves this theory, please don't hesitate to post it. :)

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2007 3:47:33 PM PDT
xyz says:
JAF: Well don't forget that Eileen Prince is no beauty queen. Both Riddle, Snape and Harry all have jet black hair. Snape has dark, almost black eyes. I don't recall reading about the color of Riddle's eyes, although Voldemort's snake eyes glow red.

What is more significant is that Eileen Prince and Tom Riddle were are Hogwarts together. They could have met at school or even after graduation. Riddle worked at Borgin & Burkes for a couple of years.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2007 4:10:28 PM PDT
E. Watters says:
But Snape is born in January, according to JKR. Not July. So if he heard the part about July, he would have known it didn't apply to him.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2007 4:50:42 PM PDT
Even though I am against the whole Star Wars idea, I do like this as a major twist. I could but it, and the timeline fits.

What we need to do here is compile all of our theories before the book comes out and have a little checklist of which ones are right and which ones are wrong. I bet alot of these end up right in someway or another... why wouldnt they? We are like the smartest people ever arent we?

My main theories that I brought to the board

A) Crookshanks (even though he is part whatever) is really Regulus Black who is an animagus

B) The fact that bad Moody saw Snape in his foe glass proves that he is a good guy

C) I cant remember my other one right now

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2007 4:52:23 PM PDT
xyz says:
A.Javed: Thank you. You are correct about the time frame. I had forgotten about Sirius's comments re: Bertha Jenkins.

GOF/334 Sirius says that Bertha was a few years above him and James. Sirius again refers to Bertha is GOF/533.

Okay so Bertha had been teasing one of the boys for kissing Florence behind the greenhouse. It could have been BLack, Lupin, Potter or Pettigrew. Since Sirius remembers Bertha distinctly even though she was older, it may be that Sirius had a run-in with her. Still the link here is Pettigrew.

So Dumbledore's remark to her memory refers to her decision to follow Pettigrew that night in Albania when he lead her to Voldemort.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 14, 2007 5:39:19 PM PDT
xyz says:
A.Javed: Wait! Death, Torture, Child Abuse, Kidnapping, Walking Corpses, Severed Body Parts, Ghosts, Blood Letting, Digging up Graves--None of this is sensational?

I will never understand why some believe that violence is more acceptable than sexual activity. It's that old biblical message: Sex is Bad; War is Good.

The definition of "answer" is a response that satisfies the question. Since I don't know the question JKR was asked, I can't know if her reply was an answer or an evasion (a non-answer).

Anyway, I am still grateful for your input on Bertha Jenkins. It will help me to refine this theory.
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Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows (Book 7)
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows (Book 7) by J. K. Rowling (Hardcover - August 1, 2007)
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