Sony Ericsson Cyber-shot C905a 8.1 MP Camera Phone, Silver (AT&T)

by Sony Ericsson

Product Details

• Product Dimensions: 4.1 x 1.9 x 0.7 inches ; 2.9 ounces
• Shipping Weight: 1 pounds
• Shipping: Currently, item can be shipped only within the U.S.
• ASIN: B002HJ300E
• Item model number: C905a
• Average Customer Review: 3.1 out of 5 stars  See all reviews (27 customer reviews)
• Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #73,149 in Cell Phones & Accessories (See Top 100 in Cell Phones & Accessories)

Product Description

Amazon.com Product Description

Boasting an impressive 8.1-megapixel camera and advanced features such as face detection, autofocus, xenon flash and geo-tagging, the Sony Ericsson Cyber-shot C905a from AT&T simplifies your on-the-go photography needs while also taking advantage of AT&T's ultra-fast 3G network. Additionally, with AT&T's 3G network, you can listen to a conference call on a headset while sending and receiving e-mail attachments, picture messages or Web pages at the same time. This GPS-enabled phone can access the AT&T Navigator service for turn-by-turn directions as well as its Video Share service, which enables you to send video of yourself to another compatible phone while making a voice call.

The Sony Ericsson C905a is an excellent multimedia companion with a 8.1-megapixel camera, easy links to your blog and Facebook, a digital audio player with Bluetooth stereo music streaming, and more.

The C905a is packed with advanced camera functionality, such as auto focus, face detection, and a Xenon flash with red-eye reduction.

This nicely compact slider phone hides its alpha-numeric keypad until you need it, and the lens on the back of the phone is also protected by an active lens cover. The 2.4-inch scratch-resistant glass screen provides a brightly colorful way to review your photos, and you can easily print directly from the phone via PictBridge and Bluetooth functionality. Other features include video recording (at QVGA/30 fps), Bluetooth connectivity for handsfree devices and stereo music streaming, memory expansion via Memory Stick Micro (M2) media, access to mobile email and instant messaging, full HTML web browsing, and up to 3.5 hours of talk time.

AT&T Services
This AT&T phone can handle high-speed data connectivity via AT&T's 3G mobile broadband data network, which is available in most major metropolitan areas. The AT&T 3G network uses the dual-band 850/1900 MHz 3G network (UMTS/HSDPA), which provides download speeds ranging from 700 Kbps to 1.7 Mbps, and upload speeds ranging from 500 Kbps to 1.2 Mbps. This makes it possible to enjoy a variety of feature-rich wireless multimedia services, and it gives you the advantage of offering simultaneous voice and data services.

In areas where the 3G network is not available, you'll continue to receive service on the AT&T EDGE network, which offers availability in more than 13,000 US cities and along some 40,000 miles of major highways. Providing average data speeds between 75-135Kbps, it's fast enough to support a wide range of advanced data services, including video and music clips, full picture and video messaging, high-speed color Internet access, and email on the go. You'll also enjoy quad-band GSM connectivity, which allows you to make calls in more than 190 countries and access data applications in the more than 135 countries where AT&T offers international data roaming.

With 3G connectivity, you'll be able to access AT&T's Video Share service, which enables you to send a live, one-way video stream to another compatible phone during a standard voice call. The service also allows you to switch the direction of the video stream during the same phone call. (Customers must be in an area served by the company's 3G network and have a Video Share-enabled phone.) While using Video Share with family and friends is a fun way to communicate, it's also very useful for business. For example, a majority of users in the architecture, engineering and construction industries rated the ability to share live video through Video Share highly, according to research commissioned by AT&T. Video Share lets you see progress on a job site or review the day's work without having to drive from an office or other site to do so.

Other features include Memory Stick Micro (M2) expansion to 8 GB, and access to email and instant messaging.

You can take advantage of the AT&T Navigator GPS software and service, a full-featured premium navigation application that includes audible turn-by-turn directions, real-time traffic updates and re-routing options, and 3D moving maps (additional charges applicable). AT&T Navigator offers several other features to make your commute more enjoyable and reliable, including mobile access to Yellowpages.com. Additionally, AT&T Navigator is the only mobile phone-based GPS service that provides integrated speech recognition for address entry and points of interest search.

With 3G connectivity, you'll be able to access AT&T's Cellular Video (CV) service and the Internet while on the go. Cellular Video features content from CNN, The Weather Channel, iFilm, Comedy Central and exclusive premium content from HBO and much more. And you get access to AT&T Mobile Music, which enables you to buy tracks while on the, access the Napster and eMusic subscription music services, stream music video, discover what's playing with Music ID song-recognition software, and find out what's hot with The Buzz music news portal.

The phone has a built-in web browser for MEdia Net downloads and mobile web browsing. AT&T's MEdia Net service enables you to receive and send emails, read news headlines, get weather updates, download games and ringtones, and more.

Phone Features
The Sony Ericsson Cyber-shot C905a has a unique 2.4-inch display (240 x 320 pixels, 262K color depth) made of mineral glass--the same material used in watch crystals--which offers excellent scratch resistance and is great for showcasing your photos and videos. It sits above a square navigation area that features icons around the toggle that are illuminated when the C905a is held horizontally in camera mode--so you know it's ready to take pictures even in low-light conditions. The navigation area is surrounded by two soft navigation keys, send/end keys, a shortcut key, and a clear key. To dial a number, just slide the handset's face upwards to reveal the alpha-numeric keypad.

The C905a has a 160 MB internal memory, which can be expanded via optional Memory Stick Micro (M2) cards up to 8 GB in size. The internal phonebook can store up to 1000 contacts, and it features multiple numbers per contact (as well as up to three email addresses), support for caller groups, and picture/ringer ID capabilities.

Sliding open the camera lens cover automatically engages the camera application on the phone. The still camera can capture images up to 8.1 megapixels (with your choice of four resolution options and two quality settings), and it also features a 16x digital zoom, Xenon flash, and auto rotate. The Face Detection and Auto Focus capability enables the camera to detect and focus on the face of your subject rather than the background, so that you can take sharp and high quality pictures of your friends. The phone also incorporates the latest in lighting technology--Photo Flash--giving you better quality pictures even in low-light conditions.

An image stabilizer compensates for those small movements, reducing the chance that your photo comes out blurred. The Smart Contrast function automatically compensates for shadows or unnaturally bright light in a shot. The BestPic function gives you nine chances to capture the precise moment you want. As well as your shot, the phone takes four images as you press the button, and another four afterwards. Pick the one you want, trash the rest. Select the Photo Fix function to improve pictures that you think can be better. In a one-click operation, brightness, light and contrast are adjusted to give you the best possible picture.

If you want the people in your pictures to be happy, just activate Smile Shutter. The camera waits until your subject beams that broad grin--then it automatically snaps the picture. Finally, take advantage of your C905a's GPS location-based service capabilities by geo-tagging your photos with precise information about where they were taken.

In addition to still photos, the phone can also capture video clips, with videos for messaging capped at approximately 20 seconds and those meant for saving to your PC running for as long as you have available space. It can record as a maximum resolution of 320 x 240 pixels (QVGA) at 30 frames per second (fps).

Handsfree communication is easy thanks to the integrated speakerphone. This phone also provides Bluetooth wireless connectivity (version 2.0), and includes profiles for communication headset, handsfree car kits, and file transfer. With the A2DP Bluetooth profile, you can stream your music to a pair of compatible Bluetooth stereo headphones. You can connect your laptop (either via Bluetooth or wired USB) and enjoy dial-up networking--surf the Internet, send email, and access files from a server (additional charges or subscription applicable).

The digital audio player is compatible with a wide variety of formats, including MP3 and AAC/AAC+. Additionally, you can play MPEG4 and 3GPP videos. With the TrackID service, you can identify any song that you can hear by just recording a snippet of sound using the microphone. After sending the file for recognition, you'll have the name, artist and album sent to your phone. It also includes a built-in FM radio with RDS, which displays the name of the currently playing song (when tuned to compatible radio stations).

The phone also ships with a built-in email client with support for POP3 and IMAP4 protocols, while the included Access NetFront Web Browser allows you to surf full HTML web sites. It also supports RSS feeds, allowing you to use your phone to view up-to-the-minute news and other content from selected Web sites and blogs. Just subscribe to the feed and let it come to you. Support is built in for sending and receiving text, video, graphics and sound via messages. T9 text entry, a technology that makes it easier for people to enter words and text on handsets, is built into the unit--a plus for mobile email and text messaging users.

Other features:

• Upload photos and video straight to your Blogger account or Facebook, Flickr, Picasa, and YouTube pages.
• Accelerometer auto-rotation--Enjoy your pictures in portrait or landscape mode. To move between modes, simply rotate the phone and the picture follows.
• Photo feeds--Use Photo feeds to check your own and your friends' blogs. Access them all from one place: your phone's Media photo album.
• Flight mode allows you to safely use the non-wireless functions of this phone (such as music, games, or organizer functions) on an airplane during flight
• Mobile Email and Instant Messenger for quick and easy access on the go (instant messaging via AOL, Windows Live, Yahoo!)
• USB mass storage capabilities
• Access to YouTube streaming videos
• Video Player with support for MPEG4, AMR, H.263, WMV file formats
• Organizer tools: calendar, calculator, alarm clock, tasks, timer, notes, stopwatch
• Personalize with downloadable games, graphic, ringtones and applications

Vital Statistics
The Sony Ericsson Cyber-shot C905a weighs 4.8 ounces and measures 4.09 x 1.93 x 0.71 inches. Its 950 mAh lithium-polymer battery is rated at up to 3.5 hours of talk time, and up to 350 hours (14.6 days) of standby time. It runs on the 850/900/1800/1900 MHz GSM/GPRS/EDGE frequencies as well as AT&T's 850/1900 MHz 3G frequencies (UMTS/HSDPA).

Customer Reviews

Most Helpful Customer Reviews

131 of 131 people found the following review helpful:

5.0 out of 5 stars A monster in a box - once debranded!, August 6, 2009

By 

Tor Slettnes (SF Bay Area, USA) - See all my reviews
(VINE VOICE)    (REAL NAME)   

This review is from: Sony Ericsson Cyber-shot C905a 8.1 MP Camera Phone, Silver (AT&T) (Wireless Phone)

I have been an avid user of Nokia N-Series phones for a while now, including the N95, N85, and most recently the N97. These phones have everything and the kitchen sink as far as specs and features go, and I had simply grown too accustomed to using them for just about everything in life. "Decent" camera with flash? Check. GPS turn-by-turn directions? Check. Organizer? Check. Personal e-mail? Check. Work e-mail and calendar sync? Check. Tethering to share its data connection while on the road? Check. Multitasking? Check. Music player, FM Tuner, Podcasting, Internet Radio? Check, Check, Check, Check. Then there are the more esoteric features, such as Nokia Sports Tracker (to record your route, speed, distance etc as you go jogging, biking, etc), TV-Out cable and Bluetooth keyboard support (to use it for basic Internet access from your living room), Speech Synthesis to read your messages and e-mail out loud while driving, and so on. I simply could not see myself "downgrading" to anything else.

I had also tried out a Sony Ericsson k850i in the mix, but despite the Xenon flash, I was unimpressed by the overall picture quality. It performed no better than my N95 as a camera phone, and was lacking in every other aspect. (No GPS, no WiFi, not very many useful applications, etc).

That was then, and this is now. I recently sent in my N97 for service (the camera had started malfunctioning - that's another topic), and go the C905a merely as a "stop gap" in the mean time. Since this is also by far the most interesting phone AT&T have had in some time, I figured it was worth a new 2-year commitment, and that I would hang onto it as a "back up" phone. Also, I did know a thing or two about its features and capabilites -- for instance I knew that it supports FM Radio, WiFi, Microsoft Exchange ActiveSync, and any standard/personal POP3/IMAP e-mail setup - but also that AT&T had disabled all of these features. So, the first thing I did once I got it was to "de-brand" the phone. I used the DaVinci tool for this, another one is WotanServer; or you can even do it for free with the "A2 Uploader" tool and a little bit more reading beforehand. While I was at it I got it unlocked to, so that I can use non-AT&T SIMs (e.g. get a local pre-paid card while traveling abroad to avoid the exorbitant roaming fees to AT&T).

I have been absolutely blown away by this phone! It may not have every single feature that the Nokias do - but pretty close. More to the point, Sony Ericsson pay a lot more attention to the small design and implementation details, and so things generally feel more polished and complete, less quirky and buggy compared to the Nokias. The main thing it is missing is a "Smartphone" operating system (like Symbian/S60 in the case of Nokia); other than that it is in many ways more capable than even many high-end smartphones. More on that later.


====================
The Best Cameraphone
====================

The main feature of the phone is the camera -- and the C905a has the best camera of any phone on the market, IMHO. Especially for indoor/party pictures, it - quite literally - shines above the competition. There are only a handful of other phones available that have real Xenon flash: The Sony Ericsson k850i, the Nokia N82, the Motorola Zine ZN5, and the LG Renoir - but the C905a flash illuminates better than any of these. Also image quality is better overall - i.e. more optical resolution, better color reproduction, and so on.

The camera interface and features are also quite extensive. For instance, it supports face recognition, which if enabled will put a square around every face it detects in the viewfinder, and use these for autofocus. Or "Smile Shutter", which keeps the picture from being taken until the identified subject actually smiles. The one thing it lacks is manual ISO control - though it does have several "scene modes", and usually picks a good ISO setting on its own. (Sometimes a bit conservative/low, choosing instead to rely on the flash for illumination. The good news is that means less grainy pictures; the bad news is that in twilight settings where the subject is close to the camera, you'll find that the strong flash causes a very short exposure time, where the background becomes too dark in the picture).

As far as video recording - well - that's another story. While competitors - notably Nokia - have standardized on VGA resolution (640x480 pixels) at 30 frames per second ever since the N95, Sony Ericsson STILL stick to their QVGA (320x240) resolution video mode. Well - at least - each pixel seems to count a bit more now than it did with the k850i; in terms of "real" (optical) resolution I'd say videos from this phone may actually be - just about - comparable to those from the N95/N96/N85/N97.

UPDATE: I compared the cameras of the C905a with the Nokia N97 (now back from repair). As it turns out, not only do the C905a's still pictures have better optical resolution, particularly in low light conditions, but it turns out that zooming in on subjects while recording video is handled much better as well. The C905a's zoom zooming operation is smoother, and subjects remain relatively sharp up to a factor of 3x-4x or so, whereas the N97's zoom operates in discrete steps ("choppy" zooming), and the videos immediately become more grainy as you zoom in. It may simply be that the C905a features optical zooming in video recording mode, while the N97 is all digital zoom. Finally, the zooming range of the C905a is much larger (allows you to zoom in much further), though I would actually have preferred the option to limit that to about 3x/4x in order to retain video quality.


========================
The Smartest "Dumbphone"
========================

Once debranded, the C905a has virtually all the features and capabilities that you would expect from ANY phone, smart or not:

- GPS, with included applications for turn-by-turn directions (WayFinder; subscription required), Google Maps, and location tagging of pictures taken by the camera. The GPS works pretty well: Where some of my Nokia phones and in particular the N97 would constantly lose and re-gain the GPS fix, and as a result Nokia Maps would constantly be recalculating directions and getting things completely mixed up, the C905a with WayFinder has been rock solid. It may not be quite as full-featured; for instance I don't see a place to change the default UK English voice, endearing as she is; nor does there seem to be a way to store maps/data directly on your device, so you will depend on a data plan. Overall I am very happy with the GPS though.

- Wireless LAN (WiFi). Unlike the Nokias, when you setup a WLAN access point you can also chose to share your phone's filesystem over the network, as if it were a Windows file server.

- Bluetooth with nearly every profile in existence. HSP/HFP for handsfree calling (obviously), A2DP/AVRCP for stereo audio streaming/control, DUN/PAN for internet connection tethering, GOEP/OBEX (so you can send/receive files, Contacts/vCards, browse the phone's filesystem, etc), PBAP/SP (to transfer/synchronize your contacts with compatible devices such as your car stereo). One thing that's missing compared to the Nokias is support for a Bluetooth keyboard - but then again, that's pretty esoteric anyway.

- E-mail reader with support for standard IMAP/POP3 setups as well as Microsoft Exchange. It is nicely done - much more polished and userfriendly than the Symbian/S60 reader in Nokia smartphones, and in some ways works better too. For instance, the only way to get the S60 reader to persistently update your mailbox without having to keep the Messaging application open is to set it to poll at specified intervals; but in this case it insists on indexing ALL e-mails in your inbox. Since I have about 9000 messages in my Inbox, it would simply not work (it would become slow and eventually crash). Not so with the C905a - it autodetects IMAP IDLE support on my mail server, and consequently gives me "push" mail (without the need for any third party service such as Nokia Messaging, BlackBerry Connect or MobileMe). More to the point, it just works -- right out of the box. NOTE: To set up a Microsoft Exchange account via Outlook Web Access, you need to go into Settings -> Connectivity (the right-most tab) -> Synchronization.

- There is a built-in IM application, which supports the standard Open Mobile Alliance IMPS protocol. In the branded version, there are predefined settings for MSN, AIM and Yahoo! (using AT&T's IM service). Unfortunately, after debranding, these are not available; however you can bring them back by uploading a customization file into the phone's filesystem via "A2 Uploader" or similar. More info in the comments. Alternatively, you may be able to use one of the several open IMPS gateways that exist - a free one is MobJab (look them up).

- The unbranded image also comes with a YouTube player preinstalled; however it does not work correctly on AT&T's network (it simply hangs when you try to play videos). Again, there is a simple "customize_upgrade.xml" hack that fixes this - also included in the comments below.

- Music player with support for most common media types (MP3, AAC/M4A, WMA, etc). FM Tuner with RDS. RSS feeds with support for embedded media (e.g. podcasts). You can set these up for automatic update (over "Local connections"/WiFi only or over the air as well). Feeds can be displayed on... Read more ›

59 of 59 people found the following review helpful:

4.0 out of 5 stars Best subsidized non-smartphone in USA, July 29, 2009

By 

Krishna Polina (Leesburg, VA) - See all my reviews
(VINE VOICE)    (REAL NAME)   

This review is from: Sony Ericsson Cyber-shot C905a 8.1 MP Camera Phone, Silver (AT&T) (Wireless Phone)

If you have used Sony Ericsson (SE) Phones you probably are aware about their easy well thought out interface that is very sleek and colorful. C905a, had everything you've seen in the recent SE phones and it betters with the cool camera utilities and Xenon flash makes the indoor photos worthwile to keep forever unlike the one's we take with other camera phones to only delete it soon.

I don't want to review the phone in detail as this model is almost a year old for SE even though AT&T started to carry it just recently.Good thing is nothing newer came from SE to make this phone obselete. In fact, it's still their best camera phone because of the Xenon flash. The original C905 even has WiFi while this AT&T branded version has WiFi disabled. It can be enabled if you know how to debrand the phone. Search Google for "Debrand C905a" and you should see the solution. It's very easy and can be done in less than 10 minutes once you download the applications required. But remember, you will lose any the AT&T branded software which to me are useless. The phone even feels faster once debranded. You can even enable the phone to play Youtube once you debrand and make a change in an xml file. Again, google for the info.

The build quality is excellent and much better than W760a.The screen is very bright and readable in sunlight and with sunglasses unlike several other phones. Smart dialing is very useful if you have a huge contact list. Also, from call logs, you can choose "Details" and view all other numbers and for the contact. Comes in very handy when you want to dial a different number of that contact. Installed Opera Mini for browsing and it makes browsing a much better experience compared to the standard browser that comes with the phone. Bought a 8GB Memory Stick Micro Card to add music collection plus to not run of memory when I go on photo-shooting marathon. Unlike iPhone you can delete the songs if you want more memory to take video or photos without having to sync.

Few Cons:
1. Need to debrand to enable WiFi.
2. Video recording is not worth unless you plan to view only on the phone.
3. Default email client is not great. Well, I know it's not a smartphone.

Positives
1. Excellent camera and Xenon Flash is a HUGE plus.
2. Great music phone as well.
3. Plenty of themes found on web to change the look of the phone menus.
4. Smart dialing and excellent call logs.
5. Super interface to send MMS, and SMS messages.
6. Super bright screen that is bright even in daylight.
7. Debranding gets WiFi, Active Exchange Server features to sync with exchange server for emails, contacts, calendar. I am able to sync contacts and calendar with my google account without having to use SyncML. Again, search google contacts sync for Sony Ericsson if you plan to use SyncML. Or search Sync iPhone Google contacts, calendar and use those same settings for Exchange and it should work.
8. Several free Java apps found on [...] that work great for me including for IMs, Photo uploaders, etc.

This phone may not have touchscreen which is the latest craze but nothing betters this phone in standard phone/SMS/MMS functionality. It is easily the best subsidized non-smartphone out there. I would have given it 5 stars if AT&T released the phone without disabling the WiFi feature. Since, I debraded it's a 5 star phone for me.

21 of 24 people found the following review helpful:

3.0 out of 5 stars Adequate phone, nice for texting, August 11, 2009

By 

Lene Jensen (On a silly thread) - See all my reviews

This review is from: Nokia Surge 6790 Phone, Black (AT&T) (Wireless Phone)

When I got this, it was with the understanding that this is a backup phone and not a primary phone. For that, it's an excellent choice. As a primary phone I have my doubts I could live with it. But I may be spoiled by having had Nokia's N95 for over 2 years (1st gen and 3rd gen). I have not tried all features yet, but will add that to the review as I try them (music feature and GPS).

Pros
====
* The phone is light. I like that I am not hauling a brick, but something so light. It is much lighter than my N95.
* The display is clear. But it is somewhat small. I actually found it easier to use than my N95, though. It's as if I see more. I guess it's because I mostly use this phone with the keyboard pulled out, and then I look at it from the side instead of traditional way. The display becomes more like a TV that way
* Full keyboard. Since the phone is quite small, the keyboard isn't very big. While I am used to qwerty keyboards on computers, and I am fairly fast typer, I felt I had to relearn it on this phone. I am probably too used to the one handed action on normal phone keyboards, so I found myself staring at the keyboard a lot.
* Menus are easy to use. There are three buttons on the cover for internet, menus and messaging, which is quite nice. There is also a soft menu you can modify. That was one of the first things I did, I practically swapped out all items. I also changed the colour scheme, although the yellow one is not bad. In fact, I found most of the themes to be better than what I had for the N95.
* Offline mode is useful when flying. You can still listening to music while not searching for towers.
* Integration with email is pretty good. I am very happy with how I can connect to gmail and get my mail. I haven't tried any other email servers, but I would believe they would be easy too.
* Configuration of the snooze. My first alarm clock had a snooze of 7 minutes. I found that to be just perfect. Not so long I could fall asleep again, but not so short I couldn't enjoy the minutes before I HAD to get up. This phone has a default snooze at 15 minutes, but it can be changed to whatever you like. Mine is now set to 7 minutes :)
* Macro SD slot under the cover. You have to remove the cover to get the slot visible, but you can extend the memory with this slot. Sweet!
* XM Radio. It has 25 channels ready for you, but you have to subscribe. I quite like the feature, though.

Cons
====
* Everything cost $6.99! The phone comes with several games, but wops, they are all demos! So you have to purchase games for $6.99 or subscribe to a service to get them cheaper. I found that most of what I wanted cost too much, so I have not bothered added games on it. Apparently you also have to go online to verify games all the time as well, which is annoying if you are offline.
* No Wifi. I cannot believe that phones come without wifi these days. I cannot live without that after being used to it. Serious flaw
* Camera is only 2 Megapixel. This is really pathetic, especially for a phone that is supposed to be targeting the young. Or maybe that is just why. The pictures are so grainy that party pics would probably not give away who they are (I am exaggerating here).
* Ringing and alarms are way too soft. One of the reasons I got this phone was to use as a backup. Especially when I am on call 24h a day, I need something I can rely on. I am not sure about this one. I know for a fact I was not awaken by a call, however, I don't know how long the phone rang. I just saw the call after I woke up. So it may have been one ring, and then it cut off, but it could also have been ringing for longer. I do not know. And it wasn't as if I was sleeping on my bed, I had simply fallen asleep in front of the TV one afternoon. The very next morning, the phone did NOT wake me with the alarm clock. That made me quite disappointed with the phone
* Sound quality. The phone is not loud enough for me. Maybe I am too old for this phone.

I really wanted to like this phone, and to some extent I do. It has a lot of features if you are willing to pay for it. I am not. So I have ended up with a phone that I will be using mostly as a phone and text messaging. Which is what it was intended for, but I still feel a bit disappointed. I will soon upgrade my primary phone to Nokia N97, and I believe it will be a phone I will be happier with.

Edit: After careful consideration, I have decided to return this phone. I have changed the ringtones for both the alarm and the ringer, and none of them managed to wake me up on the highest setting. Being on call 24h means I need a phone that can wake me up. I am sorry for returning this, but the cons turned out to be bigger than the pros _for me_.