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Initial post: May 13, 2007 3:13:08 PM PDT
Molly Bloom says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Jun 13, 2007 7:37:25 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Sep 6, 2007 3:48:29 PM PDT
it is difficult to admits one own short comming (if any). It is nice that you have offered to treat the needs of these people. And don't forget to take good care of yourself also. Ideas about hurting yourself should be discussed with a professional. It would be a disappointing thing to hurt oneself becuase of another person's dis-ease.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 6, 2007 2:07:55 PM PDT
Altered Tome says:
LOL, well, if this post isn't a text-book BPD reaction, then I don't what is. I'm confused here: who are you talking to? Meaning, I see only 3 posts in this section about this book, and I don't understand what self-righteous behavior you are seeing, or anyone that appears to be "worshiping" this book. So, who is it that you are refusing to take seriously?

Causing drama by threatening and insulting people who have different opinions from yours, that's just the disease talking. A more healthy response to the disagreements you have with this book would be to outline what points you disagree with, and why they strike a disingenuous chord with you. No need to insult people who are trying to understand how to live with folks like us...after all, we're a tough lot to deal with (yes, I have BPD, too). Plus, people that would be interested in this book are trying their best to understand and keep a relationship with someone like us, and that's a commendable action.

I'm really interested in hearing your thoughts about this book, and why you feel the people who have made posts are uninformed and self-righteous.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 6, 2007 3:46:28 PM PDT
You might like to go to
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A3RP1UBCPHSZAH/ref=cm_pdp_reviews_see_all/105-2799470-2970850?ie=UTF8&sort%5Fby=MostRecentReview
and if you click on the reviewers names above you will get insight to the background of the poster.

Your humorius reaction may very well be on the button, but what is ironic is that becuase mental disablities (and in my case,my additionally gradual loss of hearing) and they can be seen with the naked eye many people simple don't believe in the illness.

In my case after 9 mouth of theraphy, I discoved I am perhaps a non-BD victum in the extreem. The most intresting thing about BPD is that if the person has it, they are probally unable to know that. And if the person thinks they might have BPD, it is more likely they don't.

Your saying "that's just the disease talking." a BPD would be unable to accept that, after all the denyal is self preservation. ANn by making that statement, you may be recieved by one or both of us as an insult or an attack for the very reason that people in this BPD arina have blurred persecption.

The other people may be those who post to "Get Me Out of Here" but you'll ask Jane about that, I am not able to anwscer for her.

Tome, please take into account that you are reading a book review directed to people who have, or place them self around people who are, mental challanged. You observations are that someone sounds like they have a problem. You are able to read well.

Perhaps think of this way:
You go to the emergancy room with a bad cut.
You notice that many people are also there with cuts.
The ER is the appropreate place for people with bad cuts.
You annouce loudly that every one is bleeding.
While there might be some suggestion that you needs are subjectivly greater becuase you are making the statement aloud, it would also be inappropreate to vocialize the obvious.
If you think that the other people with bad cut should be some where else,
that would also be inappropreate.

Consider your question and to whom you are reading.

Please have a great day and find the guidance you seek.

ML

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 26, 2007 3:27:28 AM PST
Molly Bloom says:
Check out my review on "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and see the venomous (for the most part) responses I got--merely because I didnt like the book.

Threats and insults??? Again I refer you to the hateful responses I received.

"No need to insult people?"

Sorry--I'm the one who was insulted.

And I find it hard to believe that you "suffer" from BPD--you sound just like the "nons" who enjoy treating us like we're something subhuman. One person even informed me that we borderlines are sociopaths!!!

You should do a little research before making your sarcastic "well if this isn't a text-book BPD reaction" remarks.

I DID outline what I disliked about the book---but forget it, why am I even talking to someone whose mind is already made up?

And if I sound a little stressed, I am. My father is in the latter stages of Alzheimer's and I'm hanging on by a thread. (I can only hope no one twists that into something "manipulative" but it probably will be. God knows I am sick of being attacked while trying to deal with an illness far more severe than mine.)

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2007 2:43:52 PM PST
Kelyce says:
Happily Jane Austen has the power to just close the browser and focus on what is beneficial to her on the internet. Happy Holidays to all! Kelyce

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2007 3:35:07 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Oct 23, 2012 5:59:11 PM PDT
Come on, Are you for real ?
I think that you are a brilliant person who created a satirical persona, 'Jane Austen' (a famous writer no doubt - {daa to me for not knowing}).
I think you are pulling our leg(S) by taking on the persona of a seriously affected Borderline person and you might be jabbing the ribs of the non-BD writers because ,naturally , we (non-BDs) will succumb and take responsibility for the wacky sayings and accusations of a BPD person.

See we are all following the script really well.

It's not that Jane is BD, she is just amusing herself by keeping us going.

Jeez look at me I can't help my self and I even have figured out how the system works (what we are allowing ourselves to be programed to do) and I just can't stop myself. (sorry for the awful spelling of my past posts- I am a little dyslexic from a concussion as a kid).

Also - What sadist takes a disorder like having a difficultly arranging letters in words correctly and calls it 'dyslexic'?
What chance to I have spelling that word correctly (with out help).



LOL

JMLit

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 20, 2007 12:58:57 AM PST
Molly Bloom says:
What you're saying is just bizarre--I don't really know what your point is.

And I don't understand all the hostility just because in my review I said I didn't like the book. If others like it or find it helpful, fine. I never expected everyone to agree with my opinion, and I don't know why I'm getting flamed for what was only, for heaven's sake, a personal opinion. And I most definitely have not asked anyone to "take responsibility" for anything I say or do--I'm an adult, I don't need or expect others to look after me.

I never even expected any response to my review. I was astonished that it did get any responses--if someone doesn't agree with it, they can just ignore it, can't they?

Thanks for calling me brilliant, anyway.

And THAT is the final remark I have to make about this whole ridiculous situation.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 19, 2008 10:17:48 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 19, 2008 10:19:57 AM PDT
You are NOT NOT NOT, (thats 3 / so 2 cancel and leaves 1 NOT) bizarre.

Your posts have gotten a lot of traffic and treads - that makes you fascinating and interesting. Because some people take exception (disagree with you) you are compelling in your writing. And because your writing is authentic people are driven to respond.

It all (everyone's contributions to this somewhat concealed blog) makes the pretension of the psycho-babble interesting and entertaining.

Thank you for being brave enough and/or creative to inspire This discussion. If we all agreed the same it would be uninteresting to read. like this

"I liked the book"
"Me too"
"Yes give me a OK click"
"Good to read Book"
"Yes"
"Also"
":-)"

Like isn't the ultimate of boring to post that like something with a freaking smily :-) face.
Like ,can't I like something, even when I feel crummy and unhappy.

Hay, know what?
I think I may be in touch with MY own bizarre-ness.

Anyway, I will vote it is grand that you see the as a ridiculous situation.

ml

In reply to an earlier post on May 24, 2008 10:49:58 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 25, 2008 9:05:17 PM PDT
Dear Jane, why are people upset with what you said? Because you needlessly called them "ignorant and selfish idiots."

What did you expect after sending out barbs like that? You had your fun, but what did you actually accomplish? It would have been simple enough to state your case without the name calling. Rude, aggressive and uncalled for. Just looking to pick a fight. Classic BPD. And I have lived with a few for many years, you remind me so much of them. It's really sad.

I didn't even like everything in the book, came here as I too was tired of people "worshipping this book" but then all I see is an attack by the one who started the discussion. Makes no sense at all. Try editing yourself a bit in the future and see how things turn out. They could be very different. Good Luck. And don't waste time calling me any names, because I "give as good as I get." You won't like it, I guarantee it.

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2008 11:28:15 AM PDT
I said somewhere that Jane is Brilliant. And she really is. She (in my opinion) is not looking for a fight. I thinks she is feeling threatened by the book and the web posts. Anyone who comes into this thread of posts should understand for the beginning that people who are interested in these types of books are 'damaged' and look to become 'better again'. Do you get all get it that we are all here reading these posts because we are looking for 'help'? (otherwise you would be reading a post about the lion king or the Beatles or the Civil War). Sure I am damaged, I really am. And I am looking at that experance. And it is not OK for me to go around telling people thay are this way or that and justified by saying 'well i AM damaged so it ok'. I could say something wrong about people becuase :
I am wrong
I am damaged
I am trying as hard as I can (it's just that I need a lot of development)
I am really sure I am right.
ect.

It is ok for me to be wrong, and if I own - my own statement it like ok.
But if I am a sick person it's not ok to abuse other people and use the illness as a justification.

Like go to a hospital. There is a high density of sick people in the building. More sick people that well people.
The well people are (arguably) the Doctor Nurses and staff.
The sick people are experts (have expert knowledge) at BEing sick.
And the doctors have expert knowledge at becoming 'well'.

It would be strange if the sick people in the hospital started trying to heal one another.
(It might be an intrseting experiment - but no insurance would cover it).

Jane has a comment under the book
'Get Me Out of Here: My Recovery from Borderline Personality Disorder'
and it is clear that Jane is a BPD person because she tells us out right.
The book 'eggshells' is for people who are NON-BDs.

So what I get from writting and reading this post is that Jane's advice is that
this books on NON-BD can be difficult for a BPD person to deal with.

She only said stop worshiping the. She didn't pick on anyone, but she had defended her self. So if you all could carefully reread the post you'll find that you all are actually attacking her (opinion).

In that way she is really clever in proving her point. All the people (including me) attacked the opinion of a 'not well person'. DAAAA, she is not 'well' (all of us here, especially me, are 'not well', as indicated by being particiapting in this thread).
therefore we all proved her point.

And it is a brilliant and important idea.
That all of us need to start by
having compassion for ourselfves and for each other.

Catherine, says Jane is classic BPD.
DUUUH
So like if someone has 'a classic cut on the finger',
do you point out that they have a cut.
Me?
I go get a band-aid.

Have good luck everyone with your recoveries and
remember all the people who damage you,
were damaged by someone who was also damaged.

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2008 12:31:25 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 25, 2008 1:39:09 PM PDT
J.M. I think you are a SAINT. You are right on many counts, and put me to shame. BUT: I reacted to the original statement Jane made, which in my mind, caused all these comments:

"Dear Jane, why are people upset with what you said? Because you needlessly called them "ignorant and selfish idiots."

If she hadn't started off by calling people ignorant and selfish, I know I wouldn't have responded the way I did. Sick or not, there is no excuse for attacking people right from the start. I grew up with alcoholic BPD 's coming at all of us at once, and I am out of patience with this kind of obnoxious aggressive behavior. It has a negative effect on ALL CONCERNED. It's not "my job" to try to placate a monster, or a selfish person who doesn't care who they hurt. And as far as I can see, "Jane" isn't interested in getting "well." If she was, why would she start her comment off as an attack? Why is she blaming us for her problems? We don't even know each other. We have the right to some protection, too. She feels "abandonded?" What about US? We HAVE to abandon ship just to survive. We are not nursemaids anymore, and deserve to have a life free of abuse, threats, chaos and all the other craziness that goes with the territory. Find someone else to fight with! That's all I can say. Perhaps when I've had enough distance from the BPD's in my life and my own wounds have healed, then I can try to take on the compassionate mantel of sainthood you espouse. With someone like you, it would be a lot easier to practice. Enough Said, and Amen.

If you can explain this, you deserve the Nobel Peace Prize! I don't know any other way to avoid the assaults of these kind of people except with "fair warning" in advance. Like I said, I will "give as good as I get." Compassion with raging lions or charging pit bulls isn't going to stop them in their tracks. I've got too many claw marks to prove it.

Explain more, if you please. I don't see you as "damaged" as you describe. I'm here trying to find out how to deal with the BPD's in my life that have caused so much damage to us all. I don't see you as "sick" at all.

You also said: "So like if someone has 'a classic cut on the finger',
do you point out that they have a cut.
Me?
I go get a band-aid."

True, but if the person has AIDS and has a cut on their finger and says "You do as I say, and you shut your mouth no matter what I do, or I will infect you with this illness," then a lot more than a band-aid is needed. I have lost compassion for evil people, after years of dealing with them, and I can't tell the difference between "sick" and "evil" any more. Please explain.

Thanks for your post. You have given me much to think about, and I hope more. Yours, CT

---

OK, I went to the website with "Jane's" other reviews. Wow. She is a great writer and now I am ashamed (a bit) for coming down so hard on her. But one has to expect this kind of reaction from people like me if one wants to have the "pleasure" of calling people selfish idiots. That is still completely uncalled for. But you both have opened my eyes. But I will still not tolerate any more abuse from any BPD person, as I have lived with it for too many years. It's now time to learn how to protect myself and keep my distance from those who wish to take out their misery on everyone else! Attack at will, it's not right. But I agree that my response may have been a bit harsh, although I was just repsonding "in kind." That's what is wrong with "Stop Walking on Eggshells" is that it recommends that we keep putting up with this kind of abusive unacceptable behavior, and that "just ain't gonna happen no more." No more. Everyone and Anyone can learn to behave courteously and respectfully if they want to "get what they want." BPD's are quite skilled at maniuplation as well, so to h*** with them!

Once again I fail the "saint test." Oh, well. Better luck next time. Go ahead, attack at will, all you "sick people" out there, and I might learn to roll over and take it, and "be understanding" like the book says. But I doubt it. If someone wants to change, then I will see that and respond in kind. That's the way of the world. Disabilities do not "rule" the world. We have the right to live peaceably as well.

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2008 5:14:34 PM PDT
One the strangest enlightenments I have given myself was observing myself reacting in in an `out of control way' because my mood was destabilized. I was reacting as hurt medical patient would. And the offending person said loudly "man you are look nuts like your going to blow up'. And then I did.

Later I felt like someone was said `Mike just stop having hallucinations and just stop being depressed'. In a Pollyanna way. As if it were that easy. It is easy but finding the path is harder. (currently I am reading shadow syndromes (very good book).

The thing is Jane is neither right nor wrong. She just is. She is just one of God's children just as you are. And me too. When once of us is feeling troubled, we should help to sooth each other. And in this was the love will be retuned. When we help someone `let go of the pain and anger', we help to dissolves the over all world wide disharmony. Every contribution helps.

Some people also make it very hard to sooth them, so it is important to not upset or damages them. (Earlier I also wrote a post to be disappointed with Jane, and later I retracted and rewrote, because I was wrong - I think there is a lot to be learnt by we all leaving the posts as they are and letting Jane know that we are all hurt by the people who hurt us and that she is not part of our pain. And we should give Jane a word of encouragement and thanks for being patient and letting this threat work it's self out this way it has been really helpful to me.)

Jane seems to be a quite brave person and have confronted her issues and she wrote here a few times and let us discover ourselves. Many times BPD people end their lives when they are younger and those who don't have really endured some serious `stuff'. Like we don't ask the shell shocked war vet to just stop being nervous. Jane will have to find her way just as you and I will. It more cool to not damage the other sickly people around us. We all need to keep reminding ourselves "we are no longer in the battle, we are being threatened, we are safe and the people around us are not the people who originally hurt us.

It was a big enlightenment for me to realized that my Mother's words were no longer the angry and hurt words she used to assault me with. And even when they were that it was MY CHOICE to be hurt by them after I figured out how the manipulation worked. This is called the process of unconditional forgiveness (liken to unconditional surrender). And to relentlessly forgive and not latch on to the other person's `troubles', but not reacting to or allowing the negativity into our body is the Tao of Forgiveness.

(The again, the Forgiven that can be written is not the true forgiveness, the forgivenns that can be spoken is not the real forgeivenss.)

As you say it's not `placate a monster'. Remember Jane is not your monster. But your are reacting to as if she were. Jane may or may not make a `faulty statement' or say a key phrase that gives a `trigger' effect. Remember your are reacting to what you THINK Jane is saying and we can never know her whole story and walk in her shoes. When your exercise giving her, her just compassion. You are also being compassionate to yourself.
Jane say she feels abandon, so she reaches out to us for consolation. I hope these responses have been helpful to her and me. This is the only blog I write to.

We get `better' by stopping the hurt. Mostly other peoples.

I actually stop an attack from a Doberman/germanshaeper mix by being a real dog lover and meeting the dog with love. Later the owner told me the dog was quite vicious (reframed me) and the dog later was barking at me. The thing is, complete compassion didn't theoretically stop the attack, it actually did.

I am damaged and hurt (by my permission). Enlighten come at a price and great enlightenment comes at a great price. So if one's pay the price, one should acceot their rewards.

Band-Aids
You take the metaphor too far, to literally.
In my job at a print shop, someone once opened their hand after getting caught in a press.
I saw all parts in side the hand.
Squeezing at the wrist, I was a human tourniquet.
Holding back what I was expecting was the possibility of this guy bleeding to death in front of me. It became my life's mission that day to prevent his death. I had never like the guy before that, and I nearly got repemanded by my bosses for take it on my own to call 911. Yes I did Literally look AIDS in the face and I have no time for safety. Sometime we only get one chance to save a live. Then you see later that you can save a life EVERY day.

There is sickness
There is no evil when you practice forgiveness.
You must forgive your self first to forgive others.

My Martial Arts teacher told us all the time,
`If someone says something to make you feel bad, look for the truth in the statement and fix your self.' When someone calls me an idiot, I get upset if they are right, and when I take care of my self image, I feel no threat.

Jane and CT.
This post has been very helpful for me and would not have been written unless each of you expressed your self just as you did. Thank you.

Also these assault from words wound work unless you allow it.
When you do a `should out' to all the sick people out there, you are summonizing their attention..

Me? I say "hay all you happy loving people, come get with your respect and good feeling and easiness. I ready for you.

ML

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2008 8:52:03 PM PDT
JML: Once again, all I can say is "you are a saint" at least a "saint in training." All this forgiveness businesses, knowing that there is a "choice" in being hurt or not, and the other things you said, yes, I have heard these things many times. I still don't know what they mean. I still don't know why Jane would start this conversation off by calling all of us, people she doesn't even know, "ignorant selfish idiots."

Only 4 out of 30 found her comment to be useful, and yet you got a great deal out of this discussion. This is amazing to me. I found her comments to be of interest until she got to the mean part, calling names. I still have no tolerance for that as I have been around people just like this for too many years. But I do see your point.

You described stopping an attack from a vicious dog with love and compassion. I understand that perfectly, as I have never been bitten by a dog and have always been able to stop any threat from any animal because they know I won't hurt them. And I know they won't hurt me. But the Janes of this world DO HURT PEOPLE all the time, and they hurt me, and I don't know any other way to protect myself but to warn them away. I have always wondered why animals have never hurt me or attacked me when (certain) people always have. I am not in martial arts class, sometime wish I was, but angry defensive offensive people make me afraid and I will protect myself and warn them to STOP.

I don't have it in me to find this forgiveness, understanding, compassion, love and all the rest that you talk about when even you admit that they are "manipulating" the situation. I believe people CAN CONTROL THEMSELVES IF THEY TRY. And I believe that Jane's nasty little comment at the end of her diatribe was very much calculated and she was using this board to vent and let out her anger on all of us. This is unfair and wrong. Even though I understand what you are saying about "love and compassion," do I let a scorpion keep stinging me because I "love" it? No, I squash it so it can't hurt anyone else (death penalty) or I capture it in a jar and put it where it can't hurt anyone else (hospitalization, for example). I always put dangerous animals and insects out of reach of humans so no one will get hurt, but BPD people are too unpredictable, dangerous and can't be picked up and moved. So I warn them away.

Exactly how do you suggest we react to "you ignorant selfish idiots?" With LOVE? This sounds IMPOSSIBLE to me. I'd say she's describing HERSELF, but why should I stand there in her firing line and just "take it" like Jesus being nailed on the cross? My days of martyrdom are OVER. They can all go to h*** where they belong if they want to keep ruining our lives and the lives of everyone around them. They have to take responsibility for their actions, and they better learn how to control themselves or someone is going to do it for them. Not me, but the authorities won't put up with it.

Where does "LOVE" come into all this? Just stand there and let ourselves be verbally and / or physically beaten? It "only hurts if you let it hurt?" Get punched in the face and it's YOUR responsibility if it hurts? I say no, the person who punched you is responsible for hurting you and they need to stop. Or we need to stay out of their way. Permanently. No wonder they are abandoned. Only a crazy person, a masochist, would want to stick around.

Please explain how all the excellent sentiments you have expressed fit in with getting punched with emotion, words, thoughts and or deeds. Please. I am not a saint like you but I would like to be one. One of these days.

In reply to an earlier post on May 26, 2008 11:53:25 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 26, 2008 11:56:10 AM PDT
'the Janes of this world DO HURT PEOPLE all the time, and they hurt me, and I don't know any other way to protect myself but to warn them away.' you said.

Well, see the people, who effected Jane's psych, gave her tools and strategies that don't work.
Pretend a parent tells a child, `I punch you because I love you'.
The child grows up and rationalize that this is a good strategy.
And it never works.
The child in protecting everything they believe about their parents including love,
Upholds the strategy.

The person is very unhappy because everyone else in the world operatives under a different belief system.
The world is difficult and nothing seems to work.

Some will hurt themselves and worst.
Some will hurt others and worse.

And a small few will gather the strength and will power to examine their place in the world.
They will entertain that they are wrong.
They will entertain that the parents they love, are wrong.
They will have a great desire to `reframe' and want to adapt to be in the belief system that most people follow.
And they will have the greatest desire to be happy and liked.

Our Jane is of the last group.

It's not that the person is meaning to attack you; they are just not employing good strategies. They train me to move away from them and I look for new people to have fun with. And it truly sucks when the person victimizing you is a parent or boss who is more difficult to escape.

As we take away the permissions for people to harm us, there are limits to this idea.
If someone threatens your right to life, to have food, a safe place to live and well being.
We also get to prevent that.
If someone wants shoot you dead.
You get to try to stop that.

When people get truly antisocial the group get to stop it.

A cop pulls over a drunk and (calmly) arrests him. That is love.

Removing a disruptive kid from a classroom. Love.

Leaving an abusive spouse. Love

Cops losing control / Rodney King. That's Hate

Humiliating a disruptive kid. Hate

Arguing with a sick mind (because you can't win). Lets just call it `not love'.


I am a saint?
HunM???

I am working very hard to see that the antisocial word sayings my parents are using are not hate and anger. But they are not useful to me in relating to other people. What my parents find normal is not.

But rather then hate them or change them, at 82 years old, I would like to enjoy their final years. So I have to separate their poor strategies from how I choose to relate to other people.

Being truly loving also opens (makes us venerable) us up to the abusive people (like the non-self defending Amish Peoples). Employ the strategies to protect your self or to take care of your self. Remove your self from the condition if possible and find supportive places to be. As I stabilized I am able to share my stability with people I meet. It may be too difficult repair many of the past people problems - and it is ok to start with people we don't already have history with.

Why do this? To exercise your self esteem and practice setting limits and boundaries. It is better to start small with a small load rather then the weight of a long history.

Scorpions? My buddy is from Australia. There are tons of animals that will kill you. Most are not aggressive and will `kill you by accident'. People survive by being knowledgeable about the dangers.
In all defensive martial arts :

Rule 1 - avoid trouble
Rule 2 - run away
Rule 3 - when all avenues are closed, then choose to fight

I see that you are a programmer, I also wrote some little scripts and it is interesting that I get mad at the code that wont work. When I look hard enough it is always my fault.

If you would like to be angry, disappointed or threatened by Jane. I cannot tell you to stop or that these feeling are wrong for you to feel. But I am encouraging to think about other strategies that will bring you to a personal state happiness and well-being. You will have to find your own path.

Jane is a good person for you to start will because she (in our experience) is just a few entries in this blog.

Jane is most likely a complex and fascinating person. And it might be cool to meet her. There is a more important level that we miss when we read and write on line. The Neural Linguistics of communications. We miss certain very important clues about the message that written. AND they miss the Neural Linguistics clues that allows them to see how their message is being misinterpreted.

BTW the bible story of Jesus also have a passage about Jesus being tempted by the devil to escape his destiny. I believe this passage talks about Jesus consciously choosing the path to the cross, for the greater good. Jesus chose to suffer so we don't have to.

Jesus takes ownership of his words of non-violence and exercising them. As the story goes Jesus could simply call to his father in heaven and escape and even punish his captors. Judas also may not have been the traitor; rather Judas escorted (with dignity) Jesus to the next station. Perhaps, having no humanly escape, Judas held Jesus' hand and gave support and company as Jesus went to the jailer. Something he chose to not escape. The alternative and scholarly story of the crufixiation are fascinating and much different that we expect.

You are right to say this love stuff is difficult.
Think about this.
Words are not a fist.
Attitudes are not a gun.

When someone uses stupid words, I call them a "stupid-head". And sometime I ask them "just because you are stupid-head, do you have to be King of all Stupid-Head".

I guess the deal is something can kill us (ring octopus) and other things have power by our agreement (stupid-head words). We can exercise positioning, engagement and permissions, to choose the array of conditions that offer a happier and calmer life. And anyone have to find their path their own way. It can't be done for us. We gotta do the work.


Try to remember the unfortunate words that Jane may have offered us are an effect of the same suffering that you and I endured.

Jane, you and I are reacting to same pain and discomfort. And we are all asking for help. We can offer a different response to the words that we personally find difficult.

If we were in the Emergency Room. If the other guy is bleeding on us (please dismiss AIDs for this metaphor), we ask them to move the other way. But we don't blame them, after all the hospital is the place for injured people. And there is a high density of injuries there. While people don't mean to be complain-ly and bleed-ly, it is the place for the hurt people looking for help. So if you think that Jane is complain-ly, perhaps she is actually looking for help. In fact I would take the bet that she is.

I guess it is ok to hurt by other's actions, just try to not to attack them back unless there is a REAL threat.

JML

In reply to an earlier post on May 26, 2008 9:39:59 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 26, 2008 9:48:39 PM PDT
Well, J.M. once again you "put me to shame" or rather "give me plenty to think about." I can agree with most of what you say, or at least try to look at it to understand more of what you have written as it covers a lot of ground.

However, one part I don't understand is "Jane is most likely a complex and fascinating person. And it might be cool to meet her." How in the world can you think that? She doesn't appear to want to meet you or have anything more to do with this discussion. Why do you put her on a pedestal when she is the one that called us "ignorant selfish idiots." This just doesn't make sense. This person is obviously going to "become enraged" when she doesn't like something and start calling names and God only knows what else. I grew up with parents who beat the c*** out of us, almost killed us with their rages, and it all started with words. First the words, then came the fists. So for me, I take name-calling very seriously as I know what might come after. Words, threats, physical violence (rages). Good old Jane, Miss Magnificent in your book, said she is enraged by this book that says we have the right to "stop walking on eggshells" around BP's. Why do you think people like this should be admired and thanked? I still think that while I don't have to give "fair warning" to people of what will come to them if they go after me, I don't have to put up with their negative name calling, baiting, and attacks - which you call a "cry for help."

I know that mean dogs who are barking are really just scared themselves, and they have always to date calmed down and eventually come to me tail wagging, or dragging themselves submissively on the ground. But we have all heard of many tragic stories of children being bitten or killed by aggressive dogs, such as pit bulls, who are bred and/ or trained to have "killer" characters. They don't attack "accidentally" as the incidents you describe above. It is completely intentional and DOES CAUSE HARM. What makes you think that BP's aren't the same? They can be and are often extremely dangerous. Who do you think commits murders, assaults their spouses, family members, children, neighbors, bar fights and more? You act like their actions are nothing but a few words on a page. There's a lot more to it than that.

I appreciate all that you are saying about "re-framing" experiences, and I can see that fairly clearly.

You wrote: "In my case after 9 mouth of therapy, I discovered I am perhaps a non-BPD victim in the extreme. The most interesting thing about BPD is that if the person has it, they are probably unable to know that. And if the person thinks they might have BPD, it is more likely they don't."

This makes sense to me, but what is the point? That the Janes should not read "Stop Walking on Eggshells" as they won't like what they see and won't admit to their problems? But it does help make sense as to why it does no good to talk to them about the problem(s) as it is always "everyone else's fault," never their own. You seem to have so much acceptance and forgiveness for what you went through, it does help to know that perhaps it IS possible to forgive. But I think this comes in stages, and until the "victims" have begun to heal, that attitude is, at least, for me, impossible in the beginning stages. But it is still good to read your thoughts as ultimately I think forgiveness is the only answer. I just don't have it in me. Not yet anyway.

Wow. I never thought my short paragraph would elicit so much discussion. Someone else said your angel was a "classic case of BPD" but you didn't write back to them. Just to me. Why? Because I told Jane not to bother calling me any names because I would give them back to her? I still would. If she's "hurting" as you say, she's looking to give that hurt to everyone else. What makes her so special because of this?

How in the world does martial arts fit into this, except for me to flatten people like this? That's all I know how to do now, after YEARS - make that a lifetime - of placating, "understanding" and "walking on eggshells" which is what this book is all about. I tell you, the Janes of this world need to stay away from the rest of us and take out their "hurt" on each other or on themselves. It was part of my problem trying to "help them" that allowed them to abuse me for so many years, and I did it to myself. I could have and should have walked away right from the start. I didn't, because of religious attitudes (not really "religious" but I don't know what the right word is) like you have described here.

No more martyrdom for me. I refuse to be crucified any longer for the sake of "helping" anyone who is intent on destroying everything in their path, based on their whim of the moment. I can't see it any other way. Too many years of being others whipping post. NO MORE. NO MORE JANES IN MY LIFE FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER. EVER. NEVER AGAIN.

I will ask God to forgive them and forgive me as well as ask God to grant peace to us all and to all the world. That is the best I can do right now. You have so much understanding, I do look forward to reading your posts. Thanks again. CT

P.S. By the way, this last post of yours was written really well with very few spelling errors (if any). What changed? The dyslexia didn't seem to be a problem this time. Great. But what was different, if anything?

In reply to an earlier post on May 27, 2008 3:50:04 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 27, 2008 4:07:01 AM PDT
Molly Bloom says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on May 27, 2008 10:34:01 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 27, 2008 10:39:08 AM PDT
"What begat this fearsome spat?"

Your calling people "ignorant and selfish idiots" who have been tortured by BP's for too many years. Your initial comment has been hidden because so many people found it objectionable.

Then to have J.M. put forth the "love and compassion" angle, which is what we should probably be reacting with (when we have all been able to achieve sainthood and martyrdom, which is what this book says we do NOT have to achieve, thank God.) I am not at that stage so I'm out of that picture, but I believe that J.M. really believes what he is saying and I think the world would be better place if we all (including me) could be more like what he espouses.

I don't call it a "spat." If it had been that way with J.M. I would never have written back. J.M. is really trying to change the world. You didn't seem to appreciate - really - the positive things he had to say about you. You said you "didn't understand it" and frankly, neither do I. But J.M. is so well-written and sincere that I am interested in what they are talking about, which is why I have kept responding to it.

Simple as that. You don't have to turn the discussion between J.M. and I into a "spat" when it's not. There is a difference between that and a discussion with two opposing points of view, even if those differing opinions are held strongly. Sometimes change doesn't happen overnight. J.M. is willing and eager to "change the world" and it's attitudes, and I am willing to let him (her?) give me food for thought to change mine.

In reply to an earlier post on May 27, 2008 2:05:52 PM PDT
Molly Bloom says:
So sorry you didn't like my poesy. I was inspired in the bath, like Archimedes. Apparently you have one of those lateral literal minds.

You came into this--ahem--conversation after it was over. Unfortunate timing on your part, since you then decided it was all about YOU. Hardly possible, since no one knew of your existence at the time I left the forum.

As for name-calling, you have amassed quite an impressive arsenal against me (esp. impressive considering that you know me not at all). I especially enjoyed being classed with murderers and those who get into bar fights. Since I've never done either, I guess I'll have to ask you: is it fun? It wouldn't be to me, but to each his own.

Also sorry to dispel your image of me as a alcoholic child abuser. I don't drink--don't like the taste of alcohol. Don't do drugs. Don't even smoke. How's that for virtuous, lol? And I don't have children, but if I did I wouldn't abuse them. It is only your distorted assumption that I would.

You seem to be confusing me with a few other people. Your parents, and yourself. Oh, and pit bulls--ROFLMAO!

So which would you do (your own choices, listed above): have me put down (executed) or put away (hospitalized etc--hell, let's go ahead and add imprisoned for life so you can rest easy from my apparently threatening clutches)??

I don't believe in eugenics myself, altho the Nazis were enthusiastic about it. They didn't like the mentally ill any more than you do. Yep--they would've roasted me in an oven alongside the blind, the deaf, those in wheelchairs, gays, the mentally "retarded", etc etc etc.

Maybe you would've slept easier then, with all of us scary types permanently out of the way?

Maybe then you would have felt better.

In reply to an earlier post on May 27, 2008 7:21:09 PM PDT
Nice Poem.
This thread getting quite redunent.
It is nice to have a breath of air.
I am learing disabled / challenged.
Perhaps I really don't know what I am talking about (in reguards to BPD and NON-BPD).
I can be retarded and still like a poem however.

I have nothing left to add.

In reply to an earlier post on May 27, 2008 7:22:38 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 27, 2008 7:24:55 PM PDT
J.M. You wrote: "I have nothing left to add."

I feel the same way. I do thank you for your input. I think you do know quite a bit about what you are talking about, and you've given me much to think about. Yours, CT

In reply to an earlier post on May 27, 2008 9:05:37 PM PDT
Molly Bloom says:
J.M, I sincerely hope you didn't think I meant anything personal about the "mentally retarded", or people with any other kinds of handicaps (which would include me).

I would NEVER refer to you as "retarded"! How on earth could you think that?? I used to work with educably mentally retarded children and loved them dearly. Aside from that--you are a highly intelligent person. Dyslexia does NOT equal having a low I.Q. (and I don't care about peoples' I.Q.'s anyway). You have been virtually the only person on this thread to show unflagging kindness, compassion and yes, intelligence. I had a college professor who was dyslexic--one of the best teachers I ever had.

Anyway, thank you for showing me unusual kindness AND for liking my pitiful excuse for a poem (I am happy you liked it!).

Now, with any luck, the Cat Person will depart.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2008 9:39:38 PM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2008 10:17:31 PM PDT
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Initial post:  May 13, 2007
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Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder
Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder by Paul T. Mason (Paperback - July 1998)
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