Great book on discipleship in the local church. Excellent!!!!
The Trellis and the Vine
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61 of 63 people found the following review helpful
By A. Morgan
Format:Hardcover
Mark Dever has put this book in the top ten reads of 2009. He says "This is the best book I've read on the nature of church ministry."
Possibly.
My first impression was "Welcome to the conversation - a little late, but welcome nonetheless." What Marshall and Payne have written about here has been written about many, many times in the past 10 years or so, mainly by Emergent type folk.
A lot of their suggestions and conclusions have already been suggested and concluded in various books about church ministry. What Marshall and Payne do here is articulate it through a very biblical framework - more so than other books - as well as offer a concrete way of doing church differently, and that is what makes the book good.
Their fundamental point is simple - yet transformational if churches understood it - Disciple making should be the normal agenda and priority of every church AND every Christian disciple.
EVERY Christian's focus should be to BE a disciple and to MAKE disciples and Churches and pastors are meant to be facilitating that process.
This requires a shift of focus for churches and ministries. Early on in the book they give 11 such shifts that must take place:
1. From running programs to building people
2. From running events to training people
3. From using people to growing people (huge shift away from church `volunteers')
4. From filling gaps to training new workers
5. From solving problems to helping people make progress
6. From clinging to ordained ministry to developing team leadership
7. From Focusing on Church polity to forging ministry partnerships
8. From relying on training institutions to establishing local training
9. From focusing on immediate pressures to aiming for longterm expansion
10. From engaging in management to engaging in ministry
11. From seeking church growth to desiring gospel growth.
This cannot be achieved through superficial change, or implementing small groups. In fact, for Marshall and Payne the issue goes far deeper than just starting small groups. In fact, they argue that small groups are not the issue. The small groups need to be TRAINING groups; trained on how to read the Bible, pray with each other, work on spiritual growth. Without this drive and focus small groups are useless. Even preaching is not sufficient. Yes, you heard that right; Tony Payne and Colin Marshall say on pg 102 that, Sunday sermons are necessary but not sufficient. Preaching is ONE form of the ministry of the word - not THE form.
It is always coming back to the issue of ongoing, continuous training and discipling of ALL members of the church.
One of the most interesting discussions in the book revolves around calling. How does one know that they are called to ministry, The current model is to wait for someone to say `I feel called to ministry" and then the process begins.
This is not a biblical approach for the authors. They say that pastors and elders should be talent scouts. Scripture suggests that people are called and set apart by others (see Timothy). Pastors should be actively recruiting suitable people within their churches and challenging them to expend their lives for the work of the gospel.
They write:
"When we try and discern what it is that makes that role special [the one called out for ministry] in the New Testament it's not full time verses part time or paid verses unpaid. It's not that some belong to a special priestly class and others don't. It's not even that some are gifted and others aren't because all have gifts to contribute to the building of Christ's congregation. The key thing seems to be that some are set apart or recognized or chosen, because of their convictions, character and competency and entrusted with the responsibility under God for particular ministries."
Their summary proposals are:
Summary Propositions
1. Our goal is to make disciples
2. Churches tend towards institutionalism as sparks fly upwards
3. The heart of disciple-making is prayerful teaching
4. The goal of all ministry - not just one-to-one work - is to nurture disciples
5. To be a disciple is to be a disciple-maker
6. Disciple-makers need to be trained and equipped in conviction, character and competence
7. There is only one class of disciples, regardless of different roles or responsibilities
8. The Great Commission, and its disciple-making imperative, needs to drive fresh thinking about our Sunday meetings and the place of training in congregational life
9. Training almost always starts small and grows by multiplying workers
10. We need to challenge and recruit the next generation of pastors, teachers and evangelists
As I have said, while the main content and issues have been raised many times, what makes this book special is the solutions and suggested models which the authors put forward as a way forward. Too many books in the past have raised the problems but have never given substantial proposals or suggestions for a way forward. This book gives a biblically focused framework to allow you to work through the 11 required shifts thus becoming a church which trains disciples to be disciple-making disciples.
Possibly.
My first impression was "Welcome to the conversation - a little late, but welcome nonetheless." What Marshall and Payne have written about here has been written about many, many times in the past 10 years or so, mainly by Emergent type folk.
A lot of their suggestions and conclusions have already been suggested and concluded in various books about church ministry. What Marshall and Payne do here is articulate it through a very biblical framework - more so than other books - as well as offer a concrete way of doing church differently, and that is what makes the book good.
Their fundamental point is simple - yet transformational if churches understood it - Disciple making should be the normal agenda and priority of every church AND every Christian disciple.
EVERY Christian's focus should be to BE a disciple and to MAKE disciples and Churches and pastors are meant to be facilitating that process.
This requires a shift of focus for churches and ministries. Early on in the book they give 11 such shifts that must take place:
1. From running programs to building people
2. From running events to training people
3. From using people to growing people (huge shift away from church `volunteers')
4. From filling gaps to training new workers
5. From solving problems to helping people make progress
6. From clinging to ordained ministry to developing team leadership
7. From Focusing on Church polity to forging ministry partnerships
8. From relying on training institutions to establishing local training
9. From focusing on immediate pressures to aiming for longterm expansion
10. From engaging in management to engaging in ministry
11. From seeking church growth to desiring gospel growth.
This cannot be achieved through superficial change, or implementing small groups. In fact, for Marshall and Payne the issue goes far deeper than just starting small groups. In fact, they argue that small groups are not the issue. The small groups need to be TRAINING groups; trained on how to read the Bible, pray with each other, work on spiritual growth. Without this drive and focus small groups are useless. Even preaching is not sufficient. Yes, you heard that right; Tony Payne and Colin Marshall say on pg 102 that, Sunday sermons are necessary but not sufficient. Preaching is ONE form of the ministry of the word - not THE form.
It is always coming back to the issue of ongoing, continuous training and discipling of ALL members of the church.
One of the most interesting discussions in the book revolves around calling. How does one know that they are called to ministry, The current model is to wait for someone to say `I feel called to ministry" and then the process begins.
This is not a biblical approach for the authors. They say that pastors and elders should be talent scouts. Scripture suggests that people are called and set apart by others (see Timothy). Pastors should be actively recruiting suitable people within their churches and challenging them to expend their lives for the work of the gospel.
They write:
"When we try and discern what it is that makes that role special [the one called out for ministry] in the New Testament it's not full time verses part time or paid verses unpaid. It's not that some belong to a special priestly class and others don't. It's not even that some are gifted and others aren't because all have gifts to contribute to the building of Christ's congregation. The key thing seems to be that some are set apart or recognized or chosen, because of their convictions, character and competency and entrusted with the responsibility under God for particular ministries."
Their summary proposals are:
Summary Propositions
1. Our goal is to make disciples
2. Churches tend towards institutionalism as sparks fly upwards
3. The heart of disciple-making is prayerful teaching
4. The goal of all ministry - not just one-to-one work - is to nurture disciples
5. To be a disciple is to be a disciple-maker
6. Disciple-makers need to be trained and equipped in conviction, character and competence
7. There is only one class of disciples, regardless of different roles or responsibilities
8. The Great Commission, and its disciple-making imperative, needs to drive fresh thinking about our Sunday meetings and the place of training in congregational life
9. Training almost always starts small and grows by multiplying workers
10. We need to challenge and recruit the next generation of pastors, teachers and evangelists
As I have said, while the main content and issues have been raised many times, what makes this book special is the solutions and suggested models which the authors put forward as a way forward. Too many books in the past have raised the problems but have never given substantial proposals or suggestions for a way forward. This book gives a biblically focused framework to allow you to work through the 11 required shifts thus becoming a church which trains disciples to be disciple-making disciples.
30 of 32 people found the following review helpful
By John Dekker
Format:Paperback
The Trellis and the Vine has two core ideas. The first is that programs and organisational activity in a church (the "trellis") often get in the way of the real gospel work ("the vine"). The second is that real gospel work involves discipling others.
Now, I need to say at the outset that I am in fundamental agreement with these two emphases. Yet, it must be said that they are emphases only. It is very easy for a discipleship system to become a new trellis. The book's discussion on discipleship, however, is sufficiently nuanced to make it broader than just 1:1 discipling.
There were two things I particularly appreciated about the book. Firstly, Marshall and Payne make the point that the aim of Christian ministry is to "make disciples who make other disciples, to the glory of God," and not, for example, to get more people into small groups. This is very important for me to remember, since I would dearly love to see more people in my congregation join a small group. But that is only a means to an end, and not an end in itself.
The second thing I appreciated in this book was the argument in chapter 9 for investing time in more mature Christians so that they would join in the "vine work". Although a pastor may be naturally inclined to spend time with those who are struggling or those who need to hear the gospel, this book recommends an approach to ministry that trains others to do this - and suggests that the pastor focuses on those who need either the equipping or the encouragement to join you in the work. This is radical and controversial - yet it is the way Jesus carried out ministry, focusing on twelve disciples who would (at a later time) teach and disciple others. This is very different to the way many people view pastors and ministers - yet it is biblical.
This book is therefore one that stimulates thought and provokes disagreement. I was fine with the controversial point mentioned above, but there were two things that I didn't like about the book. In the first place, there is more to Christian ministry than discipleship, while in the second place, there is more to discipleship than just discipling individuals.
The book contains a truly hideous chart on page 101, which contrasts the "pastor as clergyman," "pastor as CEO," and "pastor as trainer." Naturally, the table is skewed towards making the reader approve of the third column and disapprove of the first two. It reminded me of the chart that D. A. Carson included in his Exegetical Fallacies (p. 109 of the 2nd edition). Apparently, the "pastor as trainer" approach sees Sunday as a "gathering of worshipping disciples with their Lord," while the "pastor as clergyman" model views Sunday as a "service of worship," and the "pastor as CEO" looks at it as an "attractional meeting." But surely it is possible to view it as both a "gathering of worshipping disciples with their Lord" and a "service of worship."
Perhaps it would be helpful at this point to draw on a modified version of Mark Driscoll's model of the pastor being prophet, priest and king. Following John Frame, Driscoll has suggested that some pastors are gifted as prophets ("thinkers"), others as priests ("feelers"), and still others as kings ("doers"). The point being, of course, is that we need all three of these aspects in a well-rounded ministry, and we need all three types serving as pastors. Maybe there is something similar going on with the three approaches that Marshall and Payne discuss:
Pastor as clergyman - prophet - focusing on public teaching
Pastor as trainer - priest - getting alongside people
Pastor as CEO - king - focus on organisation
Now, this book upholds the biblical and strategic importance of preaching, and views discipleship as being much bigger than meeting with individuals, but even with the widest possible definition, we can still see more to pastoring and teaching than this.
The second concern I have is that there is more to discipleship than discipling individuals. In Matthew 28:19, Jesus tells his disciples to "make disciples of all the nations," (NASB). Marshall and Payne take the line that "full time Christian ministry" is worthwhile for all people, and that there is a distinction between "gospel work" and "other work." They dismiss the idea that people in secular work are contributing in some way to the growth of God's kingdom, and criticise those who say "we shouldn't call people out of their secular careers; we should encourage them to stay where they are for God's glory" (p. 139). They then assert, "We don't make disciples of Jesus by building better bridges, but by prayerfully bringing the word of God to people."
There are two problems with this idea. The first is that it views the Great Commission as replacing (rather then supplementing or expanding) the creation mandate. The second is that it fails to realise how big discipling the nations really is. To take one example - Bible translation is an important component of discipling a nation. But Bible translation presupposes an entire discipline of linguistics. Would Marshall and Payne also say that "We don't make disciples of Jesus by building better verb paradigms"? Someone involved in linguistics is part of the progress of God's kingdom in the world. The Kingdom of God is bigger than individual disciples - it's about the reformation and renewal of families, churches, societies and nations.
In conclusion, this is a stimulating book, that may well prove to be one of the most influential books of 21st century Reformed evangelicalism.
Now, I need to say at the outset that I am in fundamental agreement with these two emphases. Yet, it must be said that they are emphases only. It is very easy for a discipleship system to become a new trellis. The book's discussion on discipleship, however, is sufficiently nuanced to make it broader than just 1:1 discipling.
There were two things I particularly appreciated about the book. Firstly, Marshall and Payne make the point that the aim of Christian ministry is to "make disciples who make other disciples, to the glory of God," and not, for example, to get more people into small groups. This is very important for me to remember, since I would dearly love to see more people in my congregation join a small group. But that is only a means to an end, and not an end in itself.
The second thing I appreciated in this book was the argument in chapter 9 for investing time in more mature Christians so that they would join in the "vine work". Although a pastor may be naturally inclined to spend time with those who are struggling or those who need to hear the gospel, this book recommends an approach to ministry that trains others to do this - and suggests that the pastor focuses on those who need either the equipping or the encouragement to join you in the work. This is radical and controversial - yet it is the way Jesus carried out ministry, focusing on twelve disciples who would (at a later time) teach and disciple others. This is very different to the way many people view pastors and ministers - yet it is biblical.
This book is therefore one that stimulates thought and provokes disagreement. I was fine with the controversial point mentioned above, but there were two things that I didn't like about the book. In the first place, there is more to Christian ministry than discipleship, while in the second place, there is more to discipleship than just discipling individuals.
The book contains a truly hideous chart on page 101, which contrasts the "pastor as clergyman," "pastor as CEO," and "pastor as trainer." Naturally, the table is skewed towards making the reader approve of the third column and disapprove of the first two. It reminded me of the chart that D. A. Carson included in his Exegetical Fallacies (p. 109 of the 2nd edition). Apparently, the "pastor as trainer" approach sees Sunday as a "gathering of worshipping disciples with their Lord," while the "pastor as clergyman" model views Sunday as a "service of worship," and the "pastor as CEO" looks at it as an "attractional meeting." But surely it is possible to view it as both a "gathering of worshipping disciples with their Lord" and a "service of worship."
Perhaps it would be helpful at this point to draw on a modified version of Mark Driscoll's model of the pastor being prophet, priest and king. Following John Frame, Driscoll has suggested that some pastors are gifted as prophets ("thinkers"), others as priests ("feelers"), and still others as kings ("doers"). The point being, of course, is that we need all three of these aspects in a well-rounded ministry, and we need all three types serving as pastors. Maybe there is something similar going on with the three approaches that Marshall and Payne discuss:
Pastor as clergyman - prophet - focusing on public teaching
Pastor as trainer - priest - getting alongside people
Pastor as CEO - king - focus on organisation
Now, this book upholds the biblical and strategic importance of preaching, and views discipleship as being much bigger than meeting with individuals, but even with the widest possible definition, we can still see more to pastoring and teaching than this.
The second concern I have is that there is more to discipleship than discipling individuals. In Matthew 28:19, Jesus tells his disciples to "make disciples of all the nations," (NASB). Marshall and Payne take the line that "full time Christian ministry" is worthwhile for all people, and that there is a distinction between "gospel work" and "other work." They dismiss the idea that people in secular work are contributing in some way to the growth of God's kingdom, and criticise those who say "we shouldn't call people out of their secular careers; we should encourage them to stay where they are for God's glory" (p. 139). They then assert, "We don't make disciples of Jesus by building better bridges, but by prayerfully bringing the word of God to people."
There are two problems with this idea. The first is that it views the Great Commission as replacing (rather then supplementing or expanding) the creation mandate. The second is that it fails to realise how big discipling the nations really is. To take one example - Bible translation is an important component of discipling a nation. But Bible translation presupposes an entire discipline of linguistics. Would Marshall and Payne also say that "We don't make disciples of Jesus by building better verb paradigms"? Someone involved in linguistics is part of the progress of God's kingdom in the world. The Kingdom of God is bigger than individual disciples - it's about the reformation and renewal of families, churches, societies and nations.
In conclusion, this is a stimulating book, that may well prove to be one of the most influential books of 21st century Reformed evangelicalism.
16 of 20 people found the following review helpful
Format:Paperback
A while ago I identified a category of books that I think are useless. These are books of the kind that, once you understand the main idea, it is superfluous to actually read them because it would add nothing. The main idea of 'The Trellis and the Vine' is an analogy between local church ministry and growing a vine. The 'trellis' corresponds to administration and structures, the 'vine' to the spiritual growth and life of Christians. The point is to counteract our common tendency to work on the trellis and neglect to work on the growth of the vine. Anyone involved in ministry would be aware of this dilemma, and it is helpful to be reminded of it, even if Colin Marshall and Tony Payne do exaggerate the dichotomy in order to address it. So, having understood this idea, does this book offer anything to make actually reading it worthwhile? I'm happy to say that it does, though not without some problems.
After the initial set up, 'The Trellis and the Vine' is essentially a manifesto for Marshall and Payne's view of the place and methods of discipleship and training within the church. Anyone who has been associated with evangelical Anglicanism in the past few decades will instantly recognise the style of ministry that they promote. This is a highly structured and integrated form of discipleship based around training in Biblical study and application, which has emanated from campus ministries such as AFES. This model of ministry and its associated culture is dominant in the Diocese of Sydney. 'The Trellis and the Vine' functions in one sense as a symbol for the maturity of this movement, as it integrates seamlessly in the later chapters into advertisements for the Ministry Training Scheme and the range of resources produced by Matthias Media.
The emphasis on training and personal discipleship is commendable. But the definition of 'vine work' that they offer is a little odd. According to them, this consists solely of Christians speaking Bible-based words to others. At first it's hard to see why anyone would offer such a reductionistic view of ministry. Certainly Christian discipleship involves learning to understand and apply the Scriptures, but in essence Christianity is based around the person of Jesus and our faith in him and following of his way. When the imagery of the vine is used in John 15, Jesus is encouraging his disciples to abide in him, to display his love and to follow his commandments. Reading the Bible and speaking to others about it is one of the activities that orbits around this centre, but to make it the sole form of discipleship is as mistaken as to suggest that all we need to do is participate frequently in Holy Communion, or all we need to do is pray. This is why I would suggest that this book is partly ideologically driven, in that the authors are reacting to historical and current controversies and marking out their own position. This agenda peeps its head up when we are warned against recruiting workers who have 'a charismatic understanding of the Spirit's work' or 'a more liberal view of the authority of Scripture' (p.119). Why these people are not capable of speaking Bible-based words to others is not made clear, but it demonstrates that the authors are operating within implicit theological presuppositions that may limit the books applicability to the wider church. Outside the orbit of a particular subculture of Reformed evangelicalism it loses some of its ability to persuade.
Within the parameters that the authors set, this is a challenging book that addresses a neglected area of ministry. But overall it lacks the depth of theological reflection that would make it truly 'the ministry mind-shift that changes everything'.
After the initial set up, 'The Trellis and the Vine' is essentially a manifesto for Marshall and Payne's view of the place and methods of discipleship and training within the church. Anyone who has been associated with evangelical Anglicanism in the past few decades will instantly recognise the style of ministry that they promote. This is a highly structured and integrated form of discipleship based around training in Biblical study and application, which has emanated from campus ministries such as AFES. This model of ministry and its associated culture is dominant in the Diocese of Sydney. 'The Trellis and the Vine' functions in one sense as a symbol for the maturity of this movement, as it integrates seamlessly in the later chapters into advertisements for the Ministry Training Scheme and the range of resources produced by Matthias Media.
The emphasis on training and personal discipleship is commendable. But the definition of 'vine work' that they offer is a little odd. According to them, this consists solely of Christians speaking Bible-based words to others. At first it's hard to see why anyone would offer such a reductionistic view of ministry. Certainly Christian discipleship involves learning to understand and apply the Scriptures, but in essence Christianity is based around the person of Jesus and our faith in him and following of his way. When the imagery of the vine is used in John 15, Jesus is encouraging his disciples to abide in him, to display his love and to follow his commandments. Reading the Bible and speaking to others about it is one of the activities that orbits around this centre, but to make it the sole form of discipleship is as mistaken as to suggest that all we need to do is participate frequently in Holy Communion, or all we need to do is pray. This is why I would suggest that this book is partly ideologically driven, in that the authors are reacting to historical and current controversies and marking out their own position. This agenda peeps its head up when we are warned against recruiting workers who have 'a charismatic understanding of the Spirit's work' or 'a more liberal view of the authority of Scripture' (p.119). Why these people are not capable of speaking Bible-based words to others is not made clear, but it demonstrates that the authors are operating within implicit theological presuppositions that may limit the books applicability to the wider church. Outside the orbit of a particular subculture of Reformed evangelicalism it loses some of its ability to persuade.
Within the parameters that the authors set, this is a challenging book that addresses a neglected area of ministry. But overall it lacks the depth of theological reflection that would make it truly 'the ministry mind-shift that changes everything'.
Most Recent Customer Reviews
5.0 out of 5 stars
Thank you!
I am so happy with The Trellis and the Vine: The Ministry Mind-Shift That Changes Everything. It has become very useful in my studies. Thank you!
Published 2 months ago by Heather MCWilliams
4.0 out of 5 stars
Good Book
Good practical book on church ministry mindset. Exact same philosophy as One to One Bible Reading by same publisher. So don't buy both.
Published 2 months ago by JayBro
3.0 out of 5 stars
have read better
I have read better, it is not as powerful as it could be. I was disappointed in it. was expecting more
Published 3 months ago by carouselwing
5.0 out of 5 stars
Very Highly Recommended
The Trellis and the Vine is a metaphor Colin Marshall and Tony Payne use to introduce a mind-shift in ministry that they insist will change everything. That is no small claim. Read more
Published 4 months ago by Tim Challies
5.0 out of 5 stars
Revealing
Very good material. Our Pastor is using this to develop leaders in the church, and revitalize our church. Read more
Published 5 months ago by Ray
4.0 out of 5 stars
good read
Great book, a little more for pastors & leaders than people trying to grow. Still a good read on how the church should work.
Published 6 months ago by Bill
5.0 out of 5 stars
The Trellis and the Vine by Colin Marshall and Tony Payne
Throughout this Fall and Spring our pastoral staff has read and discussed Colin Marshall and Tony Payne's book the Trellis and the Vine. Read more
Published 10 months ago by Joseph T. Cochran
5.0 out of 5 stars
Great book
Gets into the Bible backed theology of the church (separate from western tradition and customs). Explains why every believer should also be a disciple maker.
Published 11 months ago by JR
5.0 out of 5 stars
The most influential book I have read on church and ministry practice
Ok, I know you are reading my title and thinking that I may be on the payroll, but really I am not. I have briefly had 20 second conversations with the authors at conferences in... Read more
Published 11 months ago by marc mullins
5.0 out of 5 stars
The Other 20%
One survey discovered, 80% of what pastors learn in seminary, they never use again.
The Trellis and the Vine by Colin Marshall and Tony Payne is about the other 20%. Read more
The Trellis and the Vine by Colin Marshall and Tony Payne is about the other 20%. Read more
Published 15 months ago by Richard Burkey "Lifelong Learner"
