Customer Reviews

The Trinity & Subordinationism: The Doctrine of God & the Contemporary Gender Debate

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I would categorize the book's framework as tri-partite in format covering three related issues: (1) Theology of the Trinity, (2) Women, subordinate or equal?, and (3) Slavery, as Church theology has dealt with it and how it relates to gender theology. It uses a two-pronged approach to the arguments, one based within the Athanasian formula of "overview" exegesis and the second based upon the idea of cultural change requiring scriptural interpretation change, or what I term an "evolutionary" view of interpreting scripture. This two-pronged approach was submitted early on, in the introduction, but it wasn't until the final chapters which dealt with Slavery, that I understood better how Giles explains his application of the evolutionary, or cultural, form of argument. I still felt it was the much weaker manner of arguing the issues, especially for someone like me. And I basically disagreed with the premise, but additionally, I felt Giles took a facile manner of dealing with this form, as if it was self-evident truth. I would debate that, but in the further development of his ideas I could see a platform of agreement in the argument that as time progresses more of God's intent is unfolded, and gives greater understanding. Rather than an unvarnished promotion of "things are different now, and that forces us to re-interpret scripture" which is how I tended to read his line of thinking earlier in his formation of the presentation.

But in commenting further upon these two ways of arguing hermeneutics, I believe Athanasius' formula of "overview" is best for dealing with application of scripture to society's dilemmas. If following the watershed path of theological outcomes in society, strict protocols constraining women leads to a society in variance with Bible principles of freedom and equality. Handling those principles will be key in unlocking the correct approach to understanding God's Word on women.

Giles view on "cultural" evolution and force is very weak, not usable 'as is', since it depends on relativism.The idea that Christian principle once accepted within general society results in a juggernaut which cracks open wrong thinking and exposes injustice is plausible, but believing that society moves along as a force in itself, self-propelled without a cause for the ideas source? I believe in cause and effect, and so cannot embrace this culture evolution, as stated. It is framed as a theory that culture so changes that old ideas don't fit or hold up to present understanding, and thus "forces" a change in the Church and its hermeneutics.

The subject matter is weighty when a books emphasis is theology, as might be expected. It isn't light summer reading on the beach. Since the first part of the book, the concept of the Trinity, dealt primarily with theological terms, history, and study, it took much attention and concentration from a reader, such as I am, who does not ordinarily study uncut theology. Besides the fact that the Trinity is a difficult topic for the best of theologians! Giles handled it well, and thoroughly. Of course, I am biased towards the Athanusian "overview", which I call "principle", exegesis for the truly thorny doctrinal arguments, which Giles submitted with overwhelming rationale. This portion was just my cup of tea, well laced with historical references and well written in almost a story form. Not at all dry.

As the book,'The Trinity & Subordinationism', progresses it becomes clear that Giles is arguing the egalitarian side of the gender debate, although I wasn't sure until he expressed it more clearly half way through the book. This is probably due to the careful submission of the two sides, egalitarian and hierarchal views. Although he does use a rebuttal style, which tips his hand, whenever dealing with the hierarchal-subordination based books such as Piper's 'Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: A Response to Evangelical Feminism'. By the end of the book Giles is quite forthright in his conviction of the egalitarian stance.

Giles weak 'culture arguments' did the egalitarian stance no favors in my estimation. I think that is just the bias of those who hold to primarily egalitarian theological views holding sway. They think it wipes away the oppositional view of hierarchal subordination. I don't agree, and hope to submit my own ideas on where hierarchy fits with a strongly egalitarian view of women. But this book introduced a side of the issue which many of us categorize separately: slavery.

Giles doesn't spend alot of time on this, but what time there is is well spent making the case for how deluded even the best theologians often were on this issue. I think the history on this and the woman issues was the most enlightening for me. To pay attention to the actual theology of past times when there were still serious arguments about the humanity of people upon the basis of their gender and race. We shouldn't forget, and should appreciate how far we have come on some of these social issues. It is both discouraging and encouraging. That the church could promote some of the ideas it has- discouraging.... that it was instrumental in getting on the right side of the issues- encouraging.

I think the book is an important one, and lifts the gender discussion to the higher level it needs, outside the emotional mudpit it is often found in.

*this is an edited version of a review posted on my blog

This book is great! It is divided into three sections: 1) a discussion of the Trinity, hierarchicalists ' claims that there is eternal subordination within God, and a review of the historical church's position; 2) a discussion of the church's historical view of women, followed by chapters that show that hierarchicalists and egalitarians both depart from the historical position, and 3) a discussion of slavery and how the historic position is legitimately repudiated today, and how this parallels the women's issue debate, and how the way that Athanasius and Augustus handled the issue of the Trinity provides the methodology evangelicals need now to get beyond prooftexting, without dismissing the Bible but upholding its authority, to decide theological issues like this one in our age and culture.
With charity and humor, Giles lucidly and effectively skewers subordinationist and hierarchical arguments. At the end, he expresses his sincere delight in the way that God used Giles' study of these matters to broaden his understanding of what it means to do theology. Inspirational!
Giles is extremely well-read and the book has extensive footnotes and author and Scripture indices. The first section is weighty reading, especially if you are not used to reading theology, but definitely worth it, after that the rest of the book is easier. The book also includes a helpful appendix on homosexuality. The chapters on the Reformers view of the Trinity, the one on the novelty of the hierarchical position on women today, and the one on the "biblical" case for slavery particularly stand out. After reading the book I definitely felt better intellectually, emotionally and spiritually prepared to defend my own understanding of Scripture, recognizing my own fallibility and the grace I (and we all) daily receive as imperfect interpreters of God's word to us today. The book was a marvelous, concise course in Trinitarian theology and in hermeneutics, with two great case studies to hammer points home.
Every egalitarian who wants to be well informed about how to answer Grudem, Piper et al's claims that relationships between men and women should image the "eternal subordination" supposedly found in the Trinity should read this book.

This is a Great Book. It's very deep and goes into alot of Church History.I saw Mr. Giles speak on the Trinity when he was here in Illinois! He was very nice to meet and very smart on scripture and Church History, he knows his stuff.People who are in the neg. about this book are not rightly dividing The Word of Truth. They only want to see what they want to see instead of letting the Bible speak for itself!

The book takes the "Whole" of scripture into account as well.Doctrine is not make on One bible verse but on the "Whole" of Scripture.This is very well researched and I really Highly recommend this book for your Library or Church Library too! The Bible saids to "test all things, hold fast to the good." and Mr. Giles does and we should too. His other book is "Jesus and The Father" which is another great book to have! We as Christians have to Contend for The Faith like never before these days. I really learned alot from his books and it's all based on Facts and True Church History! I like how he (Brother Kevin Giles) words things just the right way to drive home the message! This book is a great tool and takes you right into The Holy scriptures and it's all in Context. God Bless you all and the Truth does set one free thank you Jesus (Jesus Is Lord)Amen!

This book is a must-read for any Christian who is confused by the mass of mis-information that abounds on the subject of the Trinity. Giles masterfully and with kindly humour demolishes the Jesuitical arguments of Grudem, Piper et al whose real agenda is the permanent subordination of women in order to achieve their self-serving goal of suppressing half of the Christian church. Should be read in conjunction with Giles' other excellent work on the same subject, Jesus And The Father. Thank the Lord there are still Godly scholars like Giles who are willing to put their necks on the chopping block in order to contend for Biblical and historical Christianity.

One may neglect the presentation of Giles's position on gender roles, and focus only on his argument concerning the Trinity doctrine and how it is best understood. A provocative and well presented thesis.

Kevin Giles has written a provocative work entitled _The Trinity and Subordinationism: The Doctrine of God and the
Contemporary Gender Debate_ (Downer's Grove: IVP,
2002). While I disagree with him doctrinally, I concur with Giles' overall assessment of Christian history concerning the status that the post-Nicene church assigned to the Son.

Giles' book is divided into three parts and contains
three appendices along with subject and author
indices. He packs so much historical information into
his 282-page book that scholars should be able to benefit from his study. Yet, students and laypersons will also find this book a delightful read since it is accessible and flows because of its quality prose.

Giles further appears to have a broad knowledge of
church history and his erudition is on full display in
_The Trinity and Subordinationism: The Doctrine of God and the Contemporary Gender Debate_. Buy it today!

the author juggles 2, 3 and sometimes 4 topics all at once as he tries to switch back and forth between the trinity, feminism, slavery, and even homosexuality. unfortunately all of these topics suffer because of the approach. for example, on the trinity, he confuses the very straight-forward understanding that God is three-in-one, father, son, and holy spirit. these three are co-equal members of the godhead, yet they each have separate and distinct roles or functions within the godhead, and they also have order within the trinity, that puts the God the father organizationally above God the son and God the holy spirit. but the greater confusion comes when the author tries to explain away the earthly organizational order of male headship in family and church. even though 1 timothy 2:12 says, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man," the author goes to great lengths to try to show that this doesn't really mean what it says for us today. the classic, historical Christian church interpretation of this verse is that it says what it means and means what it says, namely, in the church, for whatever reasons he might have God doesn't want women teaching and leading men. yet the author says that defenders of this classic, historical interpretation of the Bible teach a novelty! To believe and practice a doctrine and teaching 2000 years old, followed by all branches of christianity since the beginning of the church is a novelty! the author says that modern day defenders of the classic belief don't explain it exactly the same way as older defenders did. but that's just nit-picking. aren't readers of the bible permitted to explore different lines of thought, sharpen up old lines of thought, etc? while staying within the basic orthodox beliefs? of course, yet the author makes a big deal about defenders of the historical interpretation of 1 timothy 2:12 using different reasoning to defend the classic belief. he does this because he wants to argue his truly novel and new argument against the classic, historical interpretation is legitimate because everybody is using new arguments anyway, even the defenders of the historical interpretation. but again, there is nothing wrong with holding to the historical, classical interpretation of a verse in the Bible while using a mix of old and new arguments. just because a modern day defender of 1 timothy 2:12 doesn't employ every argument Augustine, or luther, or calvin used doesn't mean that the defender is teaching a novelty. the author is truly teaching a new and novel doctrine and practice because he is employing arguments (although bad)to come to an entirely new doctrine and practice within the church. next, the author tries to say that the slavery issue and the Bible proves that it's ok to dismiss biblical teachings. he says just as christians opposed slavery even though the bible seems to teach it's ok, so too, christians can oppose any restrictions on women teaching and leading men even though the bible seems to prohibit it. but he ignores the dissimilarities between the two subjects in the bible. 1 timothy 2:12 clearly states, "i do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man." there is no similar new testament clear command on slavery. slavery wasn't a cause for which God had called christians in the early church to fight; christians had higher spiritual priorities to attend to. even so, Paul is able to basically says, "but if a slave can win his freedom, let him." because of the dissimilarities of these two subjects, slavery is not a good model to follow in the current debate about women teaching and leading men in the church. finally, even though the author tries to defend his views against a slide into defending homosexuality, he fails. if we follow his methodology in disregarding clear biblical instructions, there is no logical way to stop someone from applying the same principles to defend homosexuality. once clear biblical instructions can be dismissed for a higher princple of justice, then other clear biblical commands can be dismissed in the same way and there is no way to stop it. the only answer is to stick with the plain interpretation of biblical teachings. for all of the wordiness of this author, he fails to prove that the classic, historical interpretation of 1 timothy 2:12 is wrong, or that is shouldn't still be applied today in the church.

but so are his critics, especially Reviewer Phantaz Sunlyk (Whitefish, MT United States). I'm not even going to try to explain why because it would take up too much space. For starters, read the following books:
How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God - 0882906070
The Father Is Not the Son - 1890828076

The "Nicene Trinity" is a figment of medieval imagination. This is historical fact, and the proof is found throughout medieval and world history books and texts. It's really too well-known to even argue about it, so I won't. Just read the books.

The author says something about the Trinity no longer being considered obtuse, secondary, and impractical dogma. NOTHING could be farther from the truth. Very few Protestant sects believe the Trinity exactly as the medieval bishops were forced to agree to. Even in those days, 1800 bishops signed a statement saying that they did not agree with the Nicene Trinity. Today, mainly Catholic, and some Protestant sects accept this weakest of Christian doctrines. The irony is that this doctrine has possibly caused more murder, torture, and mayhem than any other doctrine in any other religion, except Islam. For nearly two thousand years "Christians" have slaughtered people in the name of the Trinity.

I paraphrase from "The Father Is Not the Son":
We do not find anything like the doctrine of the Trinity in its developed form in the New Testament. If the Trinitarian doctrines cannot be found in the Bible, then Jesus Christ and his apostles did not teach those doctrines. If Jesus and his apostles did not teach them, then belief in such a doctrine is not mandatory for salvation. If Trinitarian doctrines are not mandatory for salvation, then they cannot be used as a litmus test for membership in the Christian community.

The Trinity is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; numerically three persons. One in purpose. So, stop the persecution, the bigotry, the intolerance, the hate, and the arguing, and try to act like Christians.