Customer Reviews

Way of the Turtle: The Secret Methods that Turned Ordinary People into Legendary Traders

5 star:		(46)
4 star:		(19)
3 star:		(12)
2 star:		(8)
1 star:		(10)

 

 

Curtis Faith's Way of the Turtle is a significant contribution to the trading literature. As other reviewers have noted, it works on several levels: It is an engagingly written first-person narrative of one of the most interesting experiments in trading, but it is also a thoughtful presentation of the various ingredients of trading success.

Faith spells out the Turtle trading method in detail, providing a template for a more general approach known as trend following. Most helpful is the way he breaks down the method into components: entry criteria, criteria for adding to positions, position sizing, stops, and exits. A particularly interesting chapter draws upon his Trading Blox software to update trend following research and illustrate the results of several systems in recent markets.

If I had to identify a single theme for the book, it might be this: Relatively simple trading systems can provide a tradable edge, but it is psychologically difficult for traders to follow these systems and exploit that edge. Faith illustrates this with the variability in the results among the Turtle trainees (despite the fact that all of them were given the same system rules). He also provides a detailed accounting of the psychological biases that make it difficult to follow systems that ride relatively few big winning trades for an overall positive expectancy.

Among the gems provided by Way of the Trader is a discussion of stop loss criteria and surprising research about what works and doesn't; a concluding chapter that lays out the Turtle rules in manual form, along with execution tactics; and an insightful presentation of the reasons most traders do not succeed in trading. Faith questions both discretionary trading--trading without systematically testing one's trading ideas--and the notion that trading systems eliminate emotions from trading. He makes it very clear that traders need an objective edge in the marketplace *and* the psychological fortitude to ride out inevitable drawdowns on route to exploiting that edge.

I don't think it's necessary that one be a dedicated trend follower to greatly benefit from this book. Besides being a fun and interesting read, it is an excellent introduction to the various components of trading methods and how they impact outcomes. It is also a first-rate integration of the psychology and techniques of trading. Perhaps most important of all, Way of the Turtle is an illuminating presentation of risk management and consistency, two major contributors to market success.

There are no glaring weaknesses to the book that I can detect. Personally, I would have enjoyed a discussion of the pros and cons of trend following at shorter time frames. I also would have liked a discussion of the capital required to properly implement the Turtle approach, given that success derives from holding a diversified portfolio. Those, however, are small quibbles when compared to the book's strengths. The author's chapter elaborating the Turtle method as a life philosophy is, by itself, worth the price of the text.

In short, Curtis Faith has written the definitive book on the Turtle experience and way of trading. It's hard to imagine anyone reading this book and not coming away from the experience impressed with the blend of research and psychological strength that goes into trading success.

This is one of the best overall trading books that I have read. The book covers the story of the Turtles, which for those who don't know was a group of people from different walks of life assembled out of a newspaper add to trade a system from two of the most successful traders in the world. This was done on a bet that these two guys could raise traders like people raise turtles, thus the Turtles. Curtis Faith, the youngest and most successful of the Turtles working for Richard Dennis at the time, starts out by telling his story from the selection process to trading as a Turtle in a brief history.

One of the more interesting aspects of the book was the focus on the psychology of trading. As a trader I can agree that psychology plays a large role in a person's success as a trader. Most books want to focus on the system and nothing else. The system is only one part of trading. The reason Curtis talks about one's psychology is that he said during the first month of trading as a Turtle he was the only one who stuck to the rules of the system! He said some of them just couldn't trade the system for one reason or another and eventually didn't make it. It was really interesting. Trading is a business that at times your mind will work against you.

There are 15 chapters in this 274 page book and here is a partial list of some chapter titles. Risk Junkies, Taming the Turtle Mind, Think Like a Turtle, Risk and Money Management, Turtle-Style Building Blocks, Turtle-Style Trading: Step by Step, Bulletproof Systems and Mastering Your Demons. In these chapters you will not only find what was originally taught to the Turtles but also some wisdom on different types of systems and what it takes to be a successful trader. There is a different look at position sizing and risk management from what most others teach along with all the original rules to trend following the way that Richard Dennis and Bill Eckhardt taught the Turtles. It is well written in a simple manner that gets to the point. Included are also some personal notes about Curtis' life and some business ventures that have not been as successful as his trading was.

All of that said this is not like some other books that are full of hype and don't reveal anything about actual trend following rules. This book lays out how to trend follow along with the realities that trend following ain't as easy as it sounds. Curtis mentions in the book how at one time he had a 70% drawdown and still kept trading the system!

Just a personal note here. A few years ago I had bought a package from Russell Sands, another one of the Turtles, on the Turtle method of trading and spent if I remember correctly around $200. This book is a bargain compared to that and it also includes some aspects that were not covered by Mr. Sands. I believe this book will be of benefit to anyone who is serious about learning more about trading and they will learn some stuff about themselves in the process. I highly recommend it.

I bought this book and couldn't wait until it
arrived. I tore into it to find out the "Way of
the Turtle" or the religion of Turtle Trading. I
expected the author to uncover how he used the
Turtle Way in his trading and personal life.
Perhaps talk about the lessons learned from his
tech-company going belly up, and his failings in
trading, and business in general. Certainly the
discipline taught by Dennis and Eckhardt should
have better prepared him mentally to avoid the
large scale failures he has endured in his life?

What I found instead was a boring assembly of
trading descriptions that really had nothing to
do with the "Way of the Turtle" or Curtis Faith
in general. It was a poor attempt to be
everything to everyone. He very rarely stayed on
one topic, and scattered around trading ideas
while providing little tangible insight. Oddly,
he did not mention any of the other traders in
his Turtle class. A "reveal all book" would
certainly mention the other students in his class
- seeing that some of them have become Wall
Street's greatest traders!

Recently Faith revealed (on YouTube) that he lost
all of his trading capital. So I am confused. I
bought this book to see in depth about who the
"most successful" Turtle was only later to hear
him confess that he lost all of his trading
capital. Which is it? Are you the great trader
that you claim to be or did you lose all of your
money? After reading this book I am convinced
that the author has probably not traded in years.

This is a bargain basket book inside of 2 years -
don't waste your time or money.

Here are some of the key reasons why this book is simply a poorly written/edited and ineffective trading book:

1. Chapters do not build on one another. The story goes back and forth, between hazy descriptions of technical trading tools, bizarre charts poorly explained, then back to the Turtles story, including amazement about how not every turtle could follow the rules except the author. Back and forth. Back and forth.

2. Anecdotal wisdom. Stuff you see in every book, from every investor/trader. Don't follow the herd. Know yourself. Forget about the past. You can't predict the future. Don't let past losses upset you. Is the author getting paid by the cliche?

3. Author references his own websites and company, and also heavily references the author with the 'big' blurb on the front cover. That would be Van K. Tharp who calls this "One of the five best trading books ever written". There is no corelation between this quote and the author citing Van Tharp throughout the entire book. I would like to see a chart on those probabilities in this book.

4. Misleading and contradictory title. Throughout the book, the author presses on the point that there is no secret method, that people want to believe a secret method exists because then they wouldn't have to admit to themselves that they psychologically do not have the capacity to trade effectively. Then the book is titled "The Secret Methods..." I guess that kind of title sells better.

Also on contraditions - there are no methods in this book. Just general descriptions of basic technical trading tools that one can find by googling the subject. The worst part is that the descriptions aren't even fully developed. The examples are weak, and the 'gestalt' of using multiple technical trading techniques collaboratively, as a system, is not covered adequately.

5. Book is not practical. The examples and the methods used by the author to trade do not fit 99.99% of all investor profiles. In fact, they only fit the profile of someone who can afford to lose a rich person's money as part of a social experiment.

In conclusion, I would say that the main problem with this book is its focus. If the book was biographical in nature, and covered the interactions and emotions on the floor with the other Turtles, and covered specifically the psychological aspects and nothing else, it could be a somewhat interesting read. As an investment book, it does not work, and is aggravating.

First off I need to state that this is not the greatest book on trading that many have stated it is - their are many others that would rank more highly in a traders library. Without wishing to sound churlish it should also be noted that Faith touted for reviews on his website.

However it is a reasonable exploration of the turtles story which is a compelling piece of trading history. It must be remembered that Faith left the program after its conclusion and did not pursue a career in money management/trading therefore his view of trading and experiences relate to a three year period over 20 years ago. To use an analogy this book is somewhat akin to someone writing a book on the developments in digital technology having used a beta video recorder for three years in the early 1980's - their experience begins and ends 20 years ago.

It is this lack of experience that hinders this book because in my opinion the most beneficial books on trading contain some insight into how the trader has managed their career over the long term. What problems they encountered and how they overcame them - because of his lack of longevity Faiths book is very light on with this sort of material.

As I said earlier it is a good book with which to get an insiders view of the program but you will not encounter anything new within the covers of the book.

I cannot believe the rave reviews. What was so great about it? It depends on what you are reading it for. As far as systems, there were no great systems revealed. The trend systems were very long term - example: a 100 and 350 day moving average crossover. For money management, risk, etc., there are much better books. He did go through the nuances of the turtle system so there is no more controversy about there being some secret. As far as risk, testing etc, not bad - Van Tharp type stuff.

What I bought the book for was to hear Faith's side of the turtle story. What separated him from the others. That is where the story is. That is why I bought it and for that, it was worth it.

One big disappointment was in the preface he said he would cover "How the Turtle Way applies to stocks and Forex. He never went there, though obviously the system can be applied to any market. These markets are a bit different and I know he's discussed these markets with other traders, so it would have been a great if he had shared his perspective on them.

So it depends what you wanted to get out of it. If you were looking for great trading system ideas, well you get a few basic systems he tested, plus the turtle breakout system. Much better books out there for ideas. You also get an education in risk, money management and testing. Most of this is the same old stuff. For Tharp to say it's "one of the 5 best trading books ever written" is a stretch by any standard.

Take a group of intelligent people, teach them a classic trend following trading system, give them some money to trade, and what do you have? One of the most fascinating trading stories ever told.

This book is an eyewitness account of the story of the Turtles, told by the most successful of the bunch. And while the book does not go into details about the story it does something better- it explains how they made money and how anyone can use their strategies to make money as well as or better than they did.

The author not only details the systems used by the turtles but also describes how systems work, why they work, the problems with system testing, and how to effectively create your own trading system.

The story of the turtles begins in chapter 2 and is continued throughout the book. Part story, part trading text book, the author has done a great job explaining how to trade well using simple systems. If the reports are correct, the author made $31 million while trading as a turtle and several turtles are still make millions managing large hedge funds using the same strategies explained in the book.

The four main points of the Turtle Class:

1. Trade With An Edge: have a positive expectation.
2. Manage Risk: control risk so you can continue to trade
3. Be Consistent: execute your plan
4. Keep it Simple: catch every trend

Think Like a Turtle
1. Trade in the present
2. Think in terms of probabilities not prediction
3. Take responsibility for your own trades.

This book belongs in every trader's library even if you do not trade using a system. But after reading the arguments for systems, I cannot imagine why anyone would do so without one, or several. This book, along with Trade Your Way to Financial Freedom
has helped me create the 3 systems that I trade. Not only has trading with systems made me more money, it has lowered my risk and helped me sleep better at night. If you want to read more of my reviews of stock trading and investment books, you can get them[...]

If the term 'Turtles' has you scratching your head, then I will start by saying that they were a group of students brought together by legendary trader Richard Dennis (featured in Market Wizards) in the mid-1980s as part of an experiment to see if successful trading could be taught. Dennis and his partner William Eckhardt (featured in The New Market Wizards) selected two classes and taught them their trend following methodology, then provided each with trading capital and set them loose on the markets.

Way of the Turtle is less a history lesson about the Turtles (for that you can read The Complete Turtle Trader), and more a deeper discussion of the philosophy behind the trend following methodology Dennis and Eckhardt taught them and the implementation of that system. The Turtle system has been published in other formats and other places before now, but Faith does more than that in Way of the Turtle. He talks considerably about the requirements for successfully implementing the system and how easy it is to fail with it.

To my mind, Way of the Turtle is a book of three primary parts. One is a really interesting discussion of the psychology of traders and the markets. Another is a very thorough exploration of system development, testing, and performance measurement. The final part is specific discussions of the Turtles and their methods.

The issue some readers might have is the manner of presentation of the parts.

I personally found the chapters on system design, testing, and evalutation to be the most unified and consistently coherent of the book. They progress well and present some things that I have not previously seen in comparable discussions. I found Faith's coverage of the material to be an excellent advancement into somewhat more complex approaches for one who has a decent basic grounding. His discussion of the subject is, to my mind, a virtual must read for anyone look to develop and/or evaluate trading systems.

In terms of trader and market psychology, the early chapters of the book are an outstanding exposition on the different biases and mental states that we all go through as market participants in one fashion or another. It was this material, so plainly laid out, which got me very excited to be reading the book. It really is a fantastic look at the things we have in our heads which can create so much havoc in our trading, and Faith frequently cites examples of these things through the remainder of the book in talking about his and other Turtles' successes and failures trading their system.

It's in the third subject of the book where many readers may find it lacking. Way of the Turtle, as I noted at the outset, is not a history. While Faith does clearly deliniate the full Turtle system he spends relatively little time talking about the grand experiment which the Turtles were meant to be. Rather he provides views and opinions from his own perspective. Necessarily, that makes for a narrow scope. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. One just needs to realize that going in and be prepared to find it in little bits scattered throughout the text.

Here's the biggest rub - at least for someone expecting to come away with an immediately useful trading system. Even though the book does tell you exactly how the Turtle system worked, don't expect it to be something you can use yourself. It was specifically designed for use across an array of markets by traders with a large capital base. By that I mean hundreds of thousands of dollars, minimum. As such, the vast majority of readers will not be in a position to make use of it.

So it's a question of expectations. Are you looking to become a new Turtle and trade just like them? If so, you're probably going to be disappointed. If, however, you are looking to learn from the experience and education of someone who was there, who learned a great many lessons under the tutelage of a pair of legendary traders, then you will probably come away from reading Way of the Turtle quite satisfied.

I rarely like to trade against the market, but if the reviews on this board are the market, then I'm short. Like most of the reviews here, I was lured into buying this book primarily by the mystic surrounding the Turtles. Now, as far as my curiosity about how that 1980s bet began and played out, I was not disappointed. Faith spars no ink on letting the reader into how the Turtles were formed and what is was like trading within the group. What was missing, I thought, was anything approaching the hype. Faith gives short srift to some of the actual trades made, instead choosing to focus on general requirements that might have not been common then, but are standard practice for today's active commodities trader. Perhaps that statement is proof of just how successful the bet was. If so, praise be to the Turtles -- but this doesn't make the book worth the time or the money.

I believe it when Richard Dennis said he could post a full page ad in the WSJ explaining the Turtle rules and still have people lose money using the system.

Take for example, this interview in the Striker Report with Alan Pryor, the designer of the Ready-Set-Go trading system, a likewise successful long term trading system.

John Gallwas: Do you personally trade your systems, and how do you manage your account?

"Alan Pryor: Yes, I trade all my systems, but I do not try to operate my systems anymore. I wish I was as good at trading a system, but to tell the truth I'm not. I have made all the classical mistakes that plague most traders who do not have the mental discipline to follow their system. So I finally turn the operation of my systems over to a system assist-type broker to do the trading for me, which was one of the smartest trading decisions I ever made.

Indeed, the very best advice I can give to system buyers is to seriously consider having a system assist-type broker trade your system for you. Human frailty in terms of discipline, consistency, money management, and error are the major downfall of traders, and using a system assist broker removes the trader from operating the system, while maintaining control. While I realize that most traders are a fiercely independent, and want to do-it-themselves, my recommendation to outsource the systems operation is based on first hand experience and the experience of many of our customers. "


This is why many people will learn the Turtle Strategy, and still not have the success they are looking for. The trading rules have actually already been published by Russel Sands, and are available for free on the internet. But this book has much more than just the rules. It talks about psychology and what you need to be a successful trader. I highly recommend it. I've been in the markets going on 10 years now and read literally hundreds of books, I've learned a good deal off this book.