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Showing 426-438 of 438 posts in this discussion
Posted on Sep 21, 2011 3:30:17 PM PDT
After 3 long years in a relationship I'll be coming back and re-learning my game.

Excited (for the journey) and sad at the same time but breaking up will make us happier in the end.

I guess it's a good thing I didn't trash all my books.

Time to hit the gym for awhile, read up and wait until I am emotionally ready to start the game all over again.

Good thing is that I coming back with much more experience than before and reading up will re-enforce many ideas. knowledge>experience>wisdom

Posted on Oct 1, 2012 8:02:09 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 1, 2012 1:59:19 PM PDT
Mr. Jason says:
Well D. McKenzie... I mean Ms. Gayle McDowell (if that's not another pseudonym), you finally got a REAL article published -

...too bad it took you a couple of years to find someone that would publish it. I used to have more respect for Slate. During the past couple of years the online publication has steadily been sliding downhill. And one would have thought you would have done more than rehash your standard talking points within the article.

P.S. If you would clean the cat hair from your furniture maybe someone would actually visit you. - Yes, I am being an a-hole and its deliberate so you will have something to talk about. Enjoy!

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 17, 2013 8:37:18 PM PST
Love Monkey says:
"The only guys who are "helped" by PUA are self absorbed, needy guys whose personalities stink like last week's egg salad." Speak for yourself I guess.

Posted on Feb 8, 2013 6:59:38 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 8, 2013 12:43:19 PM PST
D. mckenzie says:
Very fair comment, actually, looking back on these postings, I'm surprised at how angry I was back then. But I had my reasons at the time, and a lot of things have changed. But my position on pick up is still pretty much the same.
Men who know what they are doing with women are spending their time with women. Men who blog all day about how to get women are the ones women want nothing to do with and they don't know what the problem is. The books these guys write tell you everything you shouldn't be doing. Why, then, do people buy into them? Because merely speaking with confidence on this topic will make you sound extremely impressive to men who are terrified of women, and often, the writer can't resist the ego boost and will start to style himself as a dating expert despite not having a clue what he's talking about. That's how you get guys like mystery.
I don't spend any time on these blogs anymore because even reading this stuff is bad for you. The only emotion I pick up on from people on dating blogs is that of feeling extremely sorry for themselves - towards others, there is a level of callousness that's shocking. Sperm-jackings and borderline rapes are treated like they're something normal on these blogs. Most people involved in the dating advice circuit are single because they are not good people, and others are wise to avoid them. Reading about their antics will only serve to desensitize you and make it look like this sort of crummy behavior is just how it works when dating.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 14, 2013 1:20:13 PM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Feb 14, 2013 1:29:27 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on May 11, 2013 10:11:44 AM PDT
[Deleted by the author on May 11, 2013 10:12:29 AM PDT]

Posted on Aug 27, 2013 3:10:12 PM PDT
Jeffcar says:
Hello to everone on Amazon!

This is a great discussion on the pros and cons of PUA techniques and I'm happy to see it. Too many guys blindly go into this material and then get down on themselves when it doesn't pan out for them. This only serves to further erode their already shaky self-esteem.

I know I'm going to take a lot of flak for this, but I am with D. McKenzie. It has been my experience that about 95% of what he says is right on the money and I have a lot of experience with this sort of thing. I'm over 50, never married and have had no less than 8 long-term relationships over the years.

I don't expect anyone to believe this and I'm sure I have my own share of biases, but in my opinion the whole "PUA phenom" is based on a few grains of truth and a lot of hype, greed and egos. There is some good stuff out there, but it will take you years to wade through it all and filter out all the rubish to finally find anything that works for you. You are much better off to simply save your precious time and money and instead conduct your own social experiments in a trial and error fashion. In other words, keep what works and discard what doesn't.

In the meantime, work on yourself with an eye on being all you can be. This will build your self-esteem and self-confidence and self-confidence is the holy grail of success with women and you won't find that in a book or a course on becoming a PUA. confidence comes from knowing yourself and building faith in yourself to handle any situation regarding women with grace, style and without getting your feelings hurt.

Also remember that a lot of pro-PUA comments come from either the PUA Guru's themselves or one of their brainwashed minions. They can find these forums just as easily as you or I and it's part of their job to spew pro-PUA propaganda.

Despite what the Guru's may claim, they can't help you date out of your league. It's up to YOU to put yourself in a higher league through being the best you can be.

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 28, 2013 3:52:12 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 28, 2013 4:06:06 AM PDT
Mr. Jason says:
@ Jeffcar

I'm both curious and skeptical, so let me ask some questions -

1) Have you actually read or listened to the The Mystery Method, the Pickup Artists, The Game, or any noted material in the "manosphere", as their labeled? McKenzie is a verified purchaser per Amazon of the MM. Looking around, I see you've reviewed "Without Embarrassment". I've never even heard of Michael Pilinski. I'm not saying that its a bad thing, but I am wondering if your coming from another direction from the rest of us. I have to wonder as well since you promulgate self improvement\self actualization\working on yourself as if PUA's\Venusian Artist\or whatever you wish to call them never even mention a word about anything but pickup tactics. Their is something not congruent in pretending that "working on yourself" is a unique concept that only you can come up with in a discussion like this. I'm not saying that they're not out there, but I've never read any serious material that hasn't advocated or encouraged to some degree "working on yourself". The old adage, "Don't judge a book by its cover", comes to mind here.

2) How many post in this discussion have you read? It goes back to 2008 and all of what your stating has been debated before.

3) If you had a choice between being competent at something or confident about something then what would you choose and why?

4) If you agree with McKenzie on %95 but not on %5, what %5 do you not agree on? I ask this because its just an odd way of stating you agree with someone. McKenzie has thrown that 95 number around a bit too.

5) Have you read the post that outs McKenzie as a women posing as a man online? A "George" she is not. If you look at all her reviews for consistency you'll see she has pattern of non-specific criticism of the "manosphere" and of men in general. She's an active feminists - an armchair crusader for all women in Western Hemisphere. I also want to be clear about something related to what I just said - being familiar with the tactics that she has used before, not for one second, would I put Ms. McKenzie past creating another Amazon nickname and posting a pro-review in her favor making it appear as though it was posted from someone else. Catfished.

6) Do really believe that men, in general, like rejection so much that they'll just be convinced to use only the social experiment trial-and-error approach? Come on...really? Anyone that is in the seduction\dating\courtship scene (men or women) is going to want, at least to some degree, to do what takes the least amount of time, effort, work, money, self, embarrassment, etc. This is not the same as saying you don't have to approach, you don't have to overcome fear, you don't have to work, and that there is a "magic pill" that will solve all your problems. It is stating that it makes sense to want to optimize your effort, whatever your putting in, or doing.

7) Do you believe all men in the manosphere are misogynistic? Are some of them? Are 95% of them misogynistic? What percentage of feminists are misandristic?

8) Why do you think feminists and groups like the Southern Poverty Law Center dislike the manosphere so much?

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 28, 2013 6:34:47 AM PDT
Jeffcar says:
Hi Jason,

First of all, I applaud your skeptisicm after all why should you believe anything I have to say?

I'm just some guy posting on the internet and I may very well have little experience in these matters with all sorts of hidden agendas!

Also, you have asked several great questions that I must admit are somewhat hard to answer, but I'll give it a shot.

The first thing to keep in mind is that in many ways I'm sure we both share a lot of common ground. We are both men who are trying to better ourselves especially as it regards our relationship success with women. Secondly, I'm sure we both have come to realize that this is not an easy thing to accomplish given that a lot of men, (including me!) want to make this into a problem that can be scientifically analyzed and overcome using this type of method. In other words, thinking that there is a sort of "code" that can be cracked and once that has been accomplished any women we desire will happily land squarely in our arms/bedroom. Well, I'm sorry to report that is not the case!

Success with women involves a lot more "art" than "science." This is the biggest realization a lot of men must face and sadly a lot of PUA Guru's will not tell you this. They love to make claims that they have figured out a way to scientifically "crack the code" straight into the hearts of multitudes of women's hearts. While I admit I want that to be true, it simply does not work that way. Each interaction and each individual involved are unique and though there are some commonalities, it's a lot more art than science and some men are simply a lot naturally better at this type of "art" than others. I know this subject has been discussed on here before, but I feel it bears repeating.

At the risk of sounding like a Feminist, women are not objects that can easily be manipulated into doing whatever your heart desires. Most men need to get that idea out of their minds because it really doesn't work that way and this will never change no matter how many guys want to get angry and hate on women for this. Hate will always be counter-productive to the goal of having success with women and relationships.

In my opinion this is the one area (women are not sex-objects) where feminists get it right. This is despite the fact that I am a man and I'm not particularily fond of the way they try to get their message accross.

As to your questions:

1) Yes, I have read and re-read the mystery method. As a matter of fact I still have an original copy of the Venusian Handbook and several CD's of Mystery himself discussing PUA techniques. The reason these don't show up on Amazon is due to the fact that I bought most of those materials way before Amazon became popular. This would include "The Game," stuff by David D (Eban Pagan), Carlos Zuma, Ross Jeffries and many others I can't recall. I was also an early member of the Mystery Forum or whatever it used to be called before it became The Attraction Forum.

The reason I originally got into all this stuff was mainly as a form of self-help or self-improvement. As I stated earlier, I found very little of it "helped" and that is why I am with McKenzie on most of what he/she says. (And no, I was not aware that he is really a she, but I am not surprised and that is probably why I don't agree with everything he/she says, just most of it).

2) I did not take the time to read every post in this thread. I got bored after the first several pages because I've seen these types of discussions many times before on many different forums and they tend to get very off topic, convoluted and devolve into personal attacks and name-calling. I really dislike that. I simple wanted to weigh in on the side of saying that I believe the whole PUA thing has gotten out of hand and offers most guys a lot of false hope and broken dreams. I would therefore recommend NOT putting much faith in it to improve your dating skills. It is my belief that in some ways, it may do you more harm than good. I am also NOT saying that there aren't some guys who will benefit-there are. But these guys are, IN MY OPINION, a small minority.

3) In my mind competence in anything breeds confidence and this is a good thing.

With regard to women, if I had to choose one thing, I guess it would be boldness. Boldness as in a willingness to take chances in social situations in the context of inter-personal relationships with the opposite sex. There is a lot to admire in a person who can boldly act and take a stand. I guess you could also call this leadership or at the risk of sounding like a PUA, being an Alpha Male. In my mind having the courage to be a bold leader is the very definition of an Alpha Male as it plays out in the social realm of polite society.

4) I do not know why I choose 95% as a way to state my support. I guess it's like saying I agree with most, but not all.

I think the reason I did not say 100% is because there was something that did not seem quite right about him/her. I think it was the feeling I got that he/she was too black and white about an area where there is a lot of grey. After all, there is some truth to what the PUA Guru's teach, the problem is, (in my mind), they tend to vastly overstate the results (I suppose this is done in an effort to sell more products).

5) I did not see that. If this is true, she has lost a lot of respect from me as an impartial judge of PUA teachings. As I stated earlier it just so happens that I agree with some of what they are saying, but I take offense to the way they go about getting their message across. In many ways I think they employ lots of the same tactics most misogynists employ, only in reverse. In my mind hate has no place in this discussion and is very counter-productive if not outright damaging.

6) No one likes rejection, as it can be very painful!

However, it is part of life if you want to take chances and grow as a human being. The key is to "see" rejection for what it really is: A result. Nothing more and nothing less. Part of the "trial and error" method is learning this.

A man who can learn to not take rejection personally will go far in social interactions with women.

This fear of rejection is what stops a lot of men from succeeding with women and relationships. I see no way around that. I agree this is a hard pill for most guys to swallow.

7) It saddens me very much to see this trend in women and man hating growing. Yes, I believe it has gotten to be a problem and as soon as I detect it in anyone, they loose most credibility in my eyes. There are a lot of PUA forums on the internet that have let this problem get way out of hand. I think the Feminists also have this problem and it's why a lot of people do not take them seriously.

I think it is based mainly on fear and a lack of understanding between men and women. A lot of guys also use this as a way to de-humanize women in an effort to give them more power over them. I'm sure the Feminists also do this for the same reason.

8) Fear, plain and simple. They fear that the "manosphere" may be used as a way for men to gain more power over them. It's all a giant struggle for power.

Thanks for taking the time to ask these questions and engage in this very thought-provoking discussion,

In reply to an earlier post on Aug 28, 2013 10:57:47 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Aug 28, 2013 11:12:19 PM PDT
Mr. Jason says:
Jeff, that was a quick and thorough response. In this particular response, I want to talk not about your response to the questions as to what you say before that.

I want to first make some comments and clear up some misperceptions and misrepresentations so there is less confusion. Part of what you said is true in regards to where we hold common ground - yes, we are both men who want to better ourselves in our relationship success with women. Where ideas and beliefs very soon start to differ is when you say that we, meaning you and I, want to break things down into an exact science and "break the code". I my response yesterday, I do in fact, talk about the false belief that some men have that there is a magic pill or easy solution. So to reiterate and clear up any misperceptions I do NOT think, belief, or feel that there is a "code" to crack. Nor, do I think the best material and PUA's, who are worth their weight in salt, teach, or advocate "breaking the code." Now, do this - go to youtube and type "Tyler Durden". Watch the first 2 PUA video's that come up. Does he ever advocate a quick solution to "cracking the code"? HECK NO! In fact, if you watch the videos you will see and hear Tyler go on a tirade AGAINST the very thing that you and others accuse him and other PUA's of in fact doing. Its not like I can just look over this hypocrisy. See, this is what I have against feminist and people in general who are mischaracterizing PUAs as trying to teach some short-cut method. Not only is it a bunch of B.S., but ironically many times it comes from a source of jealousy and neediness in their own lives that they themselves accuse others of having. Its like when, what I call the "Be Yourselfers", put someone who is attempting to better themselves through the "ringer". When a guy gets braces to straighten his teeth - its oh, why can't you just be yourself or when we wants to get a better haircut - its oh, its fine, you need to be comfortable with who you are. Its this same type of jealous behavior that McKenzie exhibits over-and-over again. Anytime anyone does something for themselves, whether its take a continuing education class after work (and I've actually had people crap on me for this), learn a new skill, enhance their appearance, or whatever their doing to better themselves, their lives, and their relationships with others then there is going to be someone that wants to stand in their way. And the reasons are usually self-serving. The example Style gives in one of his videos is of Oprah (yes I know its not the best example) when she wanted to loose weight. Her friends at the time were uncomfortable with this so they told her that she didn't need to loose weight. The reason they were uncomfortable was the fact they wanted to feel good about themselves and when they looked at a thinner and thinner Oprah over time then they gradually became more and more self conscience about their own weight problem. From experience, I KNOW this to be true - people will be mean and jealous when you try to improve yourself and reach for self actualization. They will accuse you of not having self assurance in their own very rouge way. I've been there, so I KNOW. I have had to deal with these "Be Yourselfers" so many times. They are SO predictable. They will come from a pretense of trying to help you then when that doesn't work then they get nasty, really nasty because they have so many insecurities in their own lives.

Let me move on to the next part about what you said. Of course it is not an exact science nor is it solely a science, but what makes anyone an expert, other than someone who has great success, to say its more of an art than a science? Since the arts were brought up then let's talk about them - can you not get better at painting or playing a musically instrument with practicing? What about taking an art or music class with an instructor? An apprenticeship? Would Leonardo and Michelangelo have been successfully had they not taken apprenticeships? In like manner, would Style be successful with women had he not taken an apprenticeship with Mystery and other PUA's in the "Venusian Arts". Answer honesty and without disingenuousness. Once you've done that then understand this - I fully and completely reject the notion and the suggestion that success with women and in general success with people in social situations cannot be learned and taught. After all, if its taught through experience and learned through trial-and-error then someone who has had a lot of success and has a lot of experience then should be able to communicate to some extent what they view as successfully patterns to their success if not through just simply introspection. Yes, you must practice and experience some things for yourself so you can get really good at them and internalize and personalize that which you have been taught. Yes, their are unique situations and everyone has a unique personality to some degree but again, I fully reject the notion that their aren't commonalities in belief, thought, and behavior in-so-much as methods to match basic patterns of social interactions cannot be made. Just as their are methods in the arts for each type painting (realism, cubism) or improv and acting (Meisnier method), their are methods to for social interactions (MM, RSD, social proof, etc.) that emerge to help us relate to other people better. That is not to say that you are stuck in a box acting solely and mechanically in a pattern of behavior that some PUA said you must adhere to. NO! There are too many variables for that, so you have to go out and naturalize it for yourself. As they say in improv classes or salesmanship workshops - be present, be ready to react to what is around you. A personal anecdote relative to what I am talking about - if I want to flirt or interact women of African ancestry, am I going to and use the neg "I like your hair, is it real?" during the interaction? No! because many women of that background are very sensitive about their hair and insulting someone your socializing or flirting with is not what its about. But the feminist, the Alpha male, and the "natural" who suddenly feels low social validation watching on the sidelines will discredit the PUA as being manipulative because they would even dare think about challenging anyone's perception about themselves with a back-handed complement. And with the same breath they would verbally denigrate the beta male as a needy nice guy who is really a jerk underneath. Oh, the pot calling the kettle black again.

Posted on Aug 29, 2013 8:22:00 AM PDT
Jeffcar says:
Hi Jason,

Look, I don't want to get into a long debate about what works, what doesn't, who our favorite guru's are, etc, etc. If you've found something that works for you, that's great and I'm truly happy for you, but I will end my comments by giving you my honest opinion on "Tyler Durden" and others like him.

First of all, you have to understand where I am coming from...

I can honestly say that I have very little in common with Mr. Durden. To me it's not at all about getting laid by as many "hot chicks" as possible. I can't stand guys who use crude language and refer to women as "pussy" and constantly throw the F Bomb around. That is not my style at all. To me that is all low class, degrading to yourself and to women and for me personally it's not all about "getting laid." I would rather have one girl who is special to me than sleep with a different girl every other night of the week. You may think that's wierd, but that's the way I am.

Also, and I don't mean this as a personal attack on Mr. Durden because I don't know him from Adam, but from what I've seen, I personally can't stand the guy and he is the last person on Earth I would ever want to take advice from. Maybe what he does works for him, but I see him as a very beta guy with low self-esteem and low self-respect who is trying way too hard to be cool. I see that in his style of dress, his facial hair, his language, his voice, etc, etc. and I can't see him as being anywhere near true to himself.

In short, I see him as a giant phony who would do and say anything just to get laid. I see guys like him in the clubs all the time and they are a dime a dozen. In my opinion he is the perfect example of everything that is wrong with the community of PUA. I know I am probably in the minority due to my opinion of guys like him, but I am just being honest and I can't believe guys would ever follow his advice and buy his products unless they are very, very desperate. As they say, desperate people do desperate things and in my eyes, guys like him prey on male desperation. I can see why feminists hate him. I wouldn't want him anywhere near my daughter, sister or whomever.

So, that's about it. I'm sorry if that pisses you off, offends you or anyone else because that is not my intention. My intention is to help you see that guys like him are NOT the type of person you want to emulate or become because in doing so you are only adopting a false persona in order to please and attract women and that, in my mind is wrong, wrong, wrong and not to mention, potentially damaging to yourself, others and very desperate and needy behavior.

I guess the bottom line and point I'm trying to make is that you do not need to change yourself and adopt a phony personality to get women. This is needy, desperate and fake behavior. It's more about learning to accept yourself so that you are FREE to simply BE YOURSELF! If others (women) don't like or respect that, then you don't need them because there will be plenty of other people that do!

I still say avoid these PUA Guru's like the plague because they can't help you!

At the risk of sounding overly philosophical, the answers you seek can be found within yourself and it's just a matter of removing your own personal roadblocks and insecurities so that you can allow your own unique self to shine upon all those you meet. You have to have faith in yourself first before anyone else will.

I'm sorry for the rant, but these are simply my own opinions, beliefs and what has worked for me. Take them or leave them as you see fit.


Posted on Aug 29, 2013 9:54:10 AM PDT
Jeffcar says:
Hi Jason, I'd like to add one more thing...

First off, as to the title of this thread, I think it should read more like, "Why using PUA techniques and following Guru's may be a bad idea."

Secondly, and this ties in with what I just said, is the notion that a lot of men have the impression that "being yourself" is a bad idea because it doesn't work to get themselves a sexual relationship.

My response to that is: So, if "just being yourself" is a bad idea, Then what are the alternatives? To represent yourself as someone or something you're not?

Most PUA Guru's would answer that with a yes...

Most PUA Guru's teach to adopt a different or "false" persona that women will find more attractive. This was very well demonstrated by Mr. Durden in the You Tube video I watched as sort of a "Hey! Look at me!" "Look how cool I am and see how entertaining I am and how much fun I am to party with!" routine.

You could argue that this is all a harmless act simply designed to have fun with, (and for some guys it probably is), but for most I would argue that it's more an overcompensation for low self-worth and that, I believe, is damaging. It's sort of like saying, "I'm not good enough or lovable enough the way I am, so the solution is to hide my true self by covering it up with a fake one that is more fun and pleasing to others. This whole thing is the main problem I have with "The PUA Community."

Can you not see where I am coming from on that? Can you not see how pathetic, needy, desperate and manipulative that is? How would ou like it if some girl used those tactics on you?

The other alternative that I have employed is to simply embrace who you truly are and learn to make the most of your strengths and to minimize your weak points. Now, if the PUA Community pushed that methodology, then I would be all for it.

The trouble is, and the reason they don't, is probably due to the simple fact that this method takes years of dedication and hard work to accomplish. Therefore, it wouldn't sell as well. Plus, it's the same boring advice most guys mothers has been preaching for years. Therefore it's much easier to try and teach guys how to be "cool" and "so what if it's all a bunch of bull-do do?" -"It works! And that makes it okay."

Do you see where I'm coming from?

Posted on Oct 6, 2013 12:07:33 PM PDT
Crimson says:
My biggest issue with PUA material in general isn't whether or not the methods themselves work, but that there are methods to begin with. I think the majority of the methods out there treat meeting and attracting women as if it is as complex as solving some arcane mathematical equation. Of course, the seduction community attracts men who are socially awkward, shy, or troubled in some other way that affects their self-confidence, so they may need things broken down more than the average person. However, PUA gurus make attracting women seem much more complicated than it is, and I think Mystery is a great example, with the A1 A2 A3, C1 C2....R2D2! Do you really need all those steps in order to attract a woman? Do you need to learn this or that technique to sweep her off her feet? They have guys buying into that stuff, and they post on forums defending their method and the effectiveness of it.

While there is certainly good information out there, I think a guy would get the same results, or better, by simply getting out there, talking to a bunch of people, getting involved in a number of activities, and learning from their mistakes. Perhaps reading a few dating books wouldn't hurt, but becoming involved in the "seduction community" is going a step too far, in my opinion. Just learning basic social skills and spending a lot of time practicing would get the same results. PUA gurus will have you believe that if you master this or that method, most of your dating woes will be over. But a much better way would be to work on your self-esteem and self-confidence, get in shape, build your core values, make friends, become successful at something, be well-groomed, work on your wardrobe, etc. Basically, common sense stuff. Of course, no one can attract all women, but improving yourself will make you a more attractive person to the opposite sex. You really don't need to learn any of the more intricate stuff, as it just isn't necessary.

But I get how suggesting to men that there are these "secret" techniques and tactics that can attract beautiful women is appealing; it gives us a sense of power and control. But again, most of the stuff just isn't necessary.
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