Re: Why is there a GOD---A desperate attempt to make Chrisianity make sense when --they have no source.the Bible was hand copied for 1,500 years and there are thousands of manuscripts of different views about religion.. - The old phrase applies-If you tell a lie long enoughyou begin to believe it yourself..
Unfortunately no one is going to be able to prove to you that the Bible is true... and in the same way, I would ask for you to try and prove that it is a lie. I don't really think either can be done. The basis of religion is faith, which means some things are held as true while they cannot be scientifically proven.
Whats wrong with believing in fact versus faith.. Common sense tells me of the thousands of manuscripts commonly kown as the Bible everyone practices his own idea and has added or taken away from the script to prove his point...That is if they were able since 90% were illiterate..
I haven't done enough research into the history of how different manuscripts made it into the Bible and if or how they have been edited (apart from creating different versions of the Bible, NIV, King James, etc.)... so I can't comment to the reasons why anyone has physically taken something out or put something into the Bible. But if you believe in God, then you don't doubt that what is left in front of you is what He wants you to see.
If you were referring to people (Christians) who take and live by only those things that seem convenient - then you are onto something. Christian men and women can be the biggest advertisement for God, but we are all human and fallible. More often than not we are messing up and being selfish - not honoring God or setting a good example of what it means to follow Christ. So yes, I agree that people take what they want at times and leave the rest, but you can't blame that on the text.
The kindest thing I can say to you - sounds like the individual who said "I know I am right, don't confuse me with the facts." Jesus certainly had no part in writing the Bible, the last thing he wanted to do was start another religion, assuming of course that he existed....
Well you certainly have left me confused Cecil. What facts have you presented that I am not listening to? You yourself say you have based your beliefs on common sense, not fact. Please state these facts you are talking about -- and feel free to include a source so that I can look it up. I would love to look at anything you present. I certainly never said or inferred that Jesus wrote the Bible.
What in the world do you mean that he didn't want to start another religion? You try to discredit his existence while claiming to know what he desires in the same sentence. And what 'facts' lead you to believe that anyway? While I don't understand where you are going with that, I do agree with the statement (although maybe not in the way you meant. He didn't live in order to start a religion, He came to redeem us. I think religion is just the framework we put our relationship with God into...
You were obviously hoping to illicit some sort of response with your initial post - but you can't seriously think you would get a Christian to "change their mind" with a couple posts on amazon.com... if you are hoping for a larger audience there are likely better venues.
I love it when people who hear random sound bites drop those into a conversation and posture themselves as experts. It is quite obvious that you have never done any real research into textual criticism. If you had done any actual study of the evidence you would find that there are a large number of manuscripts however the variation in them hardly amounts to different views about religion. The majority of differences between different manuscripts are spelling or conjugation, the kind to be expected from hand written copies. I would suggest that you actually do some reading, perhaps of Dr Keller's book, before you so out of hand dismiss Christianity.
You are correct about a Christian changing his or her mind....It won't happen..2000 years or about does not disappear overnight but common sense and reasoning does prevail..Look at the advanced books available which explain the other side of the story or fable if you desire.. USA TODAY Monday-read how the ministers are taking advantage of the offerings etc.
Wow, what interesting conversations. I was stuck on facts and interpretations researching an array of religions and translational faults, etc for the past 10 years. Now I have realized that perhaps I've wasted valuable time when the message is more important being portrayed by Jesus Christ, Mohammad, Buddha, or the vast array of Hindu gods . . . it is being thankful for what we have and giving to others as we would like to be treated. If you are going to bash Christianity, maybe you should look behind the "religion". If Christ was here on earth, I believe He would be disappointed in the political arena of religion. Let's not forget Christianity is the attempt to live a life in a pathway like Jesus Christ, not like the ministers leading religious organizations. We are humans with may imperfections, we can only continue to brushing off the dirt on our knees as we continue to attempt to live in a Christ-like model. Semantics is nothing without works supporting your belief.
Thanks for your thoughts and my thoughts and appreciation are sent your way as well.
Once again, read the life of Christ and follow what He did. Christ preached peace, grace, and love . . . what is happening in the middle east is clearly not what He preached. If you could provide me a quote from Christ in the bible discussing war, selfishness, and hatred I would like to see it. I based my faith and works on Christ's lifestyle where a hand was never raised against a fellow brother or sister and only grace was emitted. Let's not judge one Man's life on actions 2000 years later after technology and greed consumed a world, but rather go back to the first written documentation, which is dated one generation after His death. Where millions have died within a couple of years after his life attesting to His way. I recommending reading 'Case for Christ' by Lee Strobel (old atheist Chicago Tribune writer) and the Bible. Good luck on your quest
It is obvious, you are reading from the Bible , of which, the kindest thing I can say it is religious fantacisim, in other words a very unreliable source. Consider the fact it was hand copied for over 1,500 years, most people at that time were illiterate....
the kindest thing i can say is that you still have yet to provide anything beyond your 'common sense' to try to disprove Christianity. you say that the Bible is an unreliable source.... but what in the world are you relying on. don't worry, i don't actually expect you to provide anything at all you seem to just want to go around in circles.
i don't mean this as a jab, but i will be praying for you.
Just a quick comment . . . I recently began to read the "Book of the Dead". Buried scrolls of an enlightened buddha claiming to find a way to Nirvana. The only reason I bring this up, is it starts off with around 2 pages of mantras, which are supposedly recited by Buddhist monks ~ 50 times during each prayer. This is repeated multiple times throughout the day. How well would you know those two pages of mantras if you had to repeat them 50 times during four different times of the day? Religion back in the day of "illiteracy" was passed on by oral tradition, where people memorized the "old testament" back in Jewish culture. They knew it by heart because they spent hours upon hours memorizing scripture. You have to take your mind out of today's culture, where one hour day-dreaming every Sunday is considered "holy". Back in Christ's day, religion was a lifestyle. If you still don't grasp what this would be like, it is thoroughly discussed and debated in Lee Strobel's books: "Case for Christ" and "Case for Faith" Secondly, I have been where you are and had the same arguments when I was atheist because of many of the same arguments, but after researching for the past 7 years I have come to accept and began to understand a culture that was definitely different than ours. Another thing, if you are focusing on illiteracy . . . do you think the truth is more evident when literate. When you read the news everyday discussing events around the globe . . . how many different authors writing about the same story do you read from? What I am trying to say is it is one human's perspective on an event in history . .. reliable? Or do you think numerous authors on one's life is a better and more vivid representation (Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, (gnostic gospels: The Nag Hammadi Library (including > 20 different authors: Thomas, Mary, Letter of Clement, Philip, etc)))
Hey Cecil, every single religion in this world tells you that you can earn your way to heaven(nirvana etc..) by following a set of rules; every one except for Christianity. I encourage you to read the Bible... its the antithesis of organized religion... only Christianity denies works(human effort) as the ultimate means to salvation... it was as revolutionary of a concept 2000 years ago as it is now. It liberates you to truly understand the grace and love that the Bible iterates. ps.. i hope you can overcome the assumption that faith and reasonable men are mutually exclusive... it brings more weight to discussions like this when we can assume that we are all equals, imperfect, but searching for something better than our current state, whether through reason or faith. pps. if the Bible turns you off(as it seems it does) Read this book!!! tim keller is very thoughtful in his presentation of Christianity. go to redeemer.com and find some free online sermons by him.... good luck!
First, why would God saving people be a negative thought? Second, and I don't want to be cynical, but you keep saying things like " it's obvious" and keep talking about common sense and "the facts". What are the facts? Why is this obvious? Provide something to back up your claim. Just by saying stuff about how we aren't paying attention to the facts doesn't mean anything if you do not provide facts for us to see. Just saying, it's obvious is not enough, let alone a good agrument for any debate. Third, please stop mixing present day feelings/events/traditions with cultures of 2000+ years ago. When you said something about the events taking place in the middle east, I started laughing. I mean, by your logic, if Jesus were born in Germany, you can say, look what the Nazis did, and Jesus was born there? No thank you. Or, let's say he was born in Rowanda. You'd say, look at the sensless killings that took place in Rowanda, No thank you Jesus. Pick a spot, terrible things have happened there throughout history, but that is not because Jesus was born there. All that does is shows your ignorance by justifying present day military conflicts without looking at 2000+ years of history. I am not saying religious beliefs have nothing to do with that, but it's not the sole reason (economics, foriegn policies, cultural traditions are some exmples that come to mind). While religous differences may help perpetuate the conflicts, ultimately it is hatred and ignorance that fuel that fire, not Jesus.
Please read: They lied to us in Sundayschool by Ian Ross Vayro, also The bible fraud by Tony Bushby (and his other books) all obtainable from Joshuabooks.com The Jesus mysteries by Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy to mention only a few!
If you are saying that the credibility of the Bible is jeopardized because illiterate people were copying the Bible (I may be misunderstanding you), I think you should consider your previous statement in this context. It is hard for illiterate people to add their personal views to text that they are copying!
Furthermore, your arguments appear to be speculation and conspiracy theory. Cecil, show me the beef.
The unregenerate man thinks that he has earned the right to heaven. He actually thinks he qualifies to enter the place a Holy God resides. He has said in his heart that he meets God's standard for acceptance into His heaven. I do not know of any other person who has claimed to be "THE WAY, THE LIFE AND THE TRUTH. AND NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER, GOD, EXCEPT THROUGH HIM". These were the words of the Lord Jesus Christ. Man in his sinful nature cannot enter Heaven. As Christ says, " UNLESS ONE IS BORN AGAIN,THAT IS... BORN OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD, HE CAN NOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN." The new birth is a spiritual regeneration where the old person passes away and a new regenerate person born of the Spirit of God in Christ come to being. Most people who profess to be Christians do not get to this point. What is born of flesh is flesh and does not perceive the things of God for they are foolishness to him and are Spiritually discern. CHRIST came to this earth to reveal God's love for man and how to return to Holiness.But the sinful nature of man rejected Him as men do even to this day.The message Christ brought was the Gospel (good news) of salvation. To show man the true way back to God, who was in Jesus Christ.To reveal to man that he cannot in and by himself cleanse himself of sin in order to be acceptable by a Holy God. Upon death the ones born of the Spirit of God (born again Christians) will enter into the presence of God. Mans problem is sin. God, through His love for man Has provide a way to Himself by the way of Christ. Holiness and sin cannot, in Spirit co-exist. One can read the bible all they want but if there is not a recognition for the need of salvation from the sinful nature and sinful ways,which will eventually lead to death, then there can not be repentance (turning away) from sin. But upon repentance, then God, through His Grace and mans faith in Him, the Holy Spirit brings about the new Spiritual birth and beloved, that change is undeniable. To add one more thing, God works by seed. The Lord Jesus Christ was the seed from God. Through Him God is gathering a great harvest of souls for Himself to Heaven. Unfortunately while the Middle East was once the center of Christianity, virtually all Christians have been martyred. A gain as Christ said "WHOEVER DESIRES TO FOLLOW ME MUST PICK UP HIS CROSS AND FOLLOW ME." The cross He was talking about was the persecution and even death brought about by men upon the true believers.They will murder the believers and claim to have done it for God. A great tragedy to the Gospel of Christ was brought about by those men in history claiming to be Christians and handing out bibles and guns in Africa and Asia. It is no wonder that a great stigma against Christianity exists in these two Continents. The pure Gospel was corrupted by man's wickedness and the evil that these men did was, and is still pinned against Christians. But we (true believers) know our fight is not against flesh and blood but against evil forces in the spirit world.Forces that have blinded the eyes of this generation, but the Gospel of Jesus Christ is God's power into salvation. There is only one true answer to a question. There is millions upon millions of wrong answers to the same question. God know the deceitfulness of a man's heart, you give man 5 ways to follow he will ask for 6. And if God gives man 6 ways he will ask for yet another different way fair according to his sight. So God, being all knowing and loving gave man 1 way to Himself, for the Spirit of God is not of confusion but of a sound mind and peace.I can tell by your post that a work of God has began in your heart for you wouldn't be involve in this kind of talk apart from the grace of God. But the forces of evil have turned all their engines against you for they know it is just a matter of time before they lose their grip on your soul. In the mean time, a battle for your soul rages on and you are the empire of this fight. NO ONE CAN TALK OR ARGUE MAN INTO SALVATION FOR IT IS A MIRACLE PRODUCED BY GOD'S WORK IN A MAN'S HEART AND IS NOT ACHIEVED BY ANY WORKS OF THE FLESH OF SINFUL MAN. I truly believe Salvation is the greatest Miracle of all. All said God works all things for the good of those who love Him.