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Timaeus and Critias (Penguin Classics) (Paperback)

by Plato (Author), Desmond Lee (Introduction, Translator)
4.6 out of 5 stars See all reviews (12 customer reviews)

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Editorial Reviews

Product Description
Taking the form of dialogues between Socrates, Timaeus, Critias and Hermocrates, these two works are among Plato's final writings. In Timaeus, he gives a thorough account of the world in which we live, describing a cosmos composed of four elements earth, air, fire and water which combine to give existence to all things. An exploration of the origins of the universe, life and humanity, which outlines not just physical laws but also metaphysical and religious principles, it remained a paradigm of science for two thousand years. The mysterious preamble to Timaeus contains the first account in literature of Atlantis, while the fragmentary Critias, unfinished by its author, provides a spellbinding description of the lost continent's ideal society, which Critias asserts was created by the god-like children of Poseidon himself.

Language Notes
Text: English, Greek (translation)

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Product Details

  • Paperback: 176 pages
  • Publisher: Penguin Classics (February 28, 1972)
  • Language: English
  • ISBN-10: 0140442618
  • ISBN-13: 978-0140442618
  • Product Dimensions: 7.6 x 5 x 0.6 inches
  • Shipping Weight: 5 ounces (View shipping rates and policies)
  • Average Customer Review: 4.6 out of 5 stars See all reviews (12 customer reviews)
  • Amazon.com Sales Rank: #117,377 in Books (See Bestsellers in Books)

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    #27 in  Books > Literature & Fiction > Foreign Language Fiction > More Languages > Greek
    #30 in  Books > Nonfiction > Foreign Language Nonfiction > More Languages > Greek
    #84 in  Books > Science > Physics > Cosmology



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29 of 31 people found the following review helpful:
4.0 out of 5 stars Plato's Timaeus, August 22, 2000
Plato's Timaeus

There are a plethora of disciplines (disciples) who would wish to claim the Timaeus as their own (or at least one part or another). Plato's cosmogony seems to hold something for everyone. Even to this day zealous mathematicians and geometricians have to vie with crystal worshippers and spirit channelers to proclaim Plato's take on the Pythagorean `sacred geometry' idea relating to the make up of the universe (a bunch of triangles, apparently (p. 54-56)) as plausible and still worthy of serious study. Others search for clues within a small section of what would seem to be nothing more than a literary device (p.25)- for the secrets of the lost city of Atlantis, the story of which is related to the gathered characters by Critias as an illustration of what Plato's Republic could be, or could have been. Yet others see it as a handbook of ancient astrology (1).

Although described as a `dialogue', it really isn't. In fact Hermocrates gets to exchange social pleasantries once or twice at the beginning and is thereafter mute throughout. Critias gets a reputable monologue recounting the fate of Atlantis (p.20) before handing off to Timaeus (perhaps Timaios, a Pythagoran), the astronomy expert, who handles, with a line or two of encouragement from Socrates (p.29), the entire piece to its end.

Perhaps it was living in the shadows of the persecution, trial, and subsequent execution of Socrates that allowed Plato to lift his eyes to focus on `The Forms'.

This was his theory put forward in the `Republic' and repeated again in the `Timaeus' (p.40), that a divine craftsman created our universe. This demiurge modeled our close approximation on some original Divine set of `Forms' which we can, through application of philosophy strive toward, but never see (sense) or `know' (have intellectual certainty of). This Demiurge created the pantheon of Gods and gave to them the task of creating all living creatures from the elements of fire, earth, air and water (p.49). Each `bit' of each element possessed a particular geometric shape, too small to be seen by the human eye, which mingles with others - or doesn't - according to a set of mathematical rules.

After the planets (spherical, thus perfect (p.33)), man was created next closest to perfection (after a somewhat disastrous beta cycle (p.43)). Woman came into existence as the transmigrated soul of men who didn't cut the mustard the first time around (p.42) and were made into something less than a man, that is, a woman. The scale of incompetence declined steeply from there. Next were animals that dragged their four limbs across the ground, birds, then fish and last of all oysters.

The known planets, Mercury (Hermes), Venus (Aphrodite), Jupiter (Zeus) and Mars (Apollo), along with the moon and the sun where put into motion in their allotted orbits around `Mother' Earth. By virtue of Platonic decree, the heavenly bodies were set in their sophisticated motion by the souls that inhabited them, for they were living beings, too. Fixed stars, being fixed, were hooks to hang each soul on between incarnations (p.38).

But it seemed something was missing in Plato's unifying theory. It seemed for this universe of close approximation to exist, it had to be held in, perhaps nurtured by, framed by,`The Nurse Of Becoming', or the more ominous sounding `receptacle of becoming' (p.48)'.

What Desmond Lee's translation does not convey about this Receptacle (Greek: Khora) is that within the text of the Timaeus, the Receptacle is a `she' (2). When read within the context of the female genitive, the sexual politics give a much clearer picture of what both Plato and Desmond Lee seem to be struggling with when they discuss her blank void and her inability to give form or function to that which she holds within her. That it is the `he' that attributes the form and the function.

Being denied one such omission, one wonders what other oversights one is unaware of.

Plato's Anatomy and Physiology lesson (expounded by Timaeus) is, in all respects, somewhat wide of the mark. Still, however, an interesting read (the description of the function of the liver is particularly fascinating), and at times (unintentionally) humorous - and at others it is thought provoking and insightful in a mythic sort of way. Here he touches on the metaphysical once again, setting up road signs back to the extispicy practices of the Akkadians (3) and forward to the Greco-Roman mystery religions of the first few centuries AD.

I have a thing or two to say about the Penguin Classic edition, also. The paper is yellowed and cheap and acts like blotting paper when one takes a hi-liter to it. I would much prefer nice shiny white paper, with plenty of white space for marginalia and esthetics.

The Timaeus is hard. The translator, Desmond Lee says so. Plato says so. Who am I to differ? Mr. Lee's notes were of great help, but I sometimes got the impression that he was as lost as I - which I found strangely comforting. At times he defers to the `Cornford' translation (also available from Amazon), perhaps this tells us something.

This is essential reading for anyone who has an interest in math, comparative cosmogony, myth, astrology, archeoastronomy or philosophy. I advise all medical students to stay away.

(1) See "Hamlet's Mill', pp. 305-309, De Santillana, Giorgio, David R Godine, Publisher, Inc. Jaffery, New Hampshire (2) See `Space & Timaeus', Bigelow, John, Monash University. URL http://www.arts.monash.edu.au/phil/department/bigelow/space.html (3) See `Ancient Mesopotamia', p.213, Oppenheim, A. Leo, University of Chicago Press, Chicago, 1977

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10 of 10 people found the following review helpful:
5.0 out of 5 stars Plato's Timaeus and Modern Physics, April 10, 2005
If there is one book to own, it's this one. Every night read sections 15 to 22 slowly. The rest of the book is important for other reasons, but sections 15 to 22 shaped the face of modern physics, philosophy, and religion in matters of cosmology and cosmogony. It's relevance today is still a matter of scholarly debate, but a few simple substitutions of modern terms for Plato's gives the reader a familiar set of problems, viz. those of modern physics, without being anachronistic to Plato in the least. The current "prime stuff" theory of space, is reached for by Plato in his discussion of space. The amazing success of mathematical description has its origin in Plato connecting the Platonic solids with the first theory of chemistry. Our modern notions of order and pattern emerging from complexity that we see in Mandelbrot and Wolfram are clearly stated by Plato in section 21. You'll see exactly where to place the concepts of quark or Kaluza-Klein, by careful re-reading of these sections. Of the most primary importance, is the unsolved problem of existence and reality as posed then and now. After reading it enough to know the ancient context from our modern one, of this last question one can ask just how far we have or haven't come in 2500 years.
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8 of 9 people found the following review helpful:
4.0 out of 5 stars Truly a Classic, October 27, 2002
By Randyll McDermott (Minneapolis, MN, USA) - See all my reviews
The Timaeus and the Critias are two dialogues written by Plato. In the Timaeus he explores the origin of Earth by means of a dialogue between Socrates and Timaeus and in the Critias, also a dialogue, he writes about the myth of Atlantis. I was suprised by how much he knew, such as that the Earth is a sphere, but also by the ignorance he had in saying that there were only 4 elements. The writing for the most part is clear, but in some places hard to follow, an example is when Plato is discussing the creation of the soul of the World. I had never read a book by Plato before and I am now interested in his other works. Those who have never read ancient philosophy shouldn't be discouraged by this book, it is a rewarding read, and not hard to understand.
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Most Recent Customer Reviews

5.0 out of 5 stars Timaeus and Critias
Excellent book. Since I've been reading many books about Atlantis and Lemuria and attending the Ancient Mysteries Conferences at Association of Research and Enlightenment (Edgar... Read more
Published 9 months ago by Diane Kopp

5.0 out of 5 stars Atlantis, Ancient Athens, and a Single God-creator
Atlantis. That is what most people are familiar with, from this ancient tale.

If one reads carefully, it is easy to tell that this is a fictious work by plato,... Read more
Published 10 months ago by Wayne J. Villines

5.0 out of 5 stars Great Work, Insightful Commentary
I enjoyed this translation as well as the translator's commentary, found in an introduction to Timaeus and an appendix on Atlantis. Read more
Published 10 months ago by Chris Travers

5.0 out of 5 stars The first attempt to systematically explain the universe
Plato's Timaeus is a dialogue (more like a speech actually, since Timaeus talks uninterrupted for the last 100 pages or so) which is his explanation of the nature and purpose of... Read more
Published on December 26, 2006 by Jesse Rouse

4.0 out of 5 stars First Appearance Of Atlantis In Literature
I'm not sure why Plato ever became so famous based on this book.
He states as fact things that are only conjecture really. Read more
Published on December 10, 2005 by Jeff Marzano

5.0 out of 5 stars Early physics...sort of
Plato is deep. That can't be emphasized enough. He deals more with physics in "Timaeus" than in any other extant work. Read more
Published on December 24, 2003 by Carl Slim

5.0 out of 5 stars Plato's Science and Psychology
Desmond Lee, the translator of the Penguin edition of Timaeus and
Critias, claims his goal is an accurate representation of Plato's
thought, as opposed to maintaining... Read more
Published on April 13, 2003 by Joseph C. Hager, Ph.D.

3.0 out of 5 stars The Atlantis Stories & Other Far-Fetched Theories
Plato was an excellent thinker. He wasn't afraid to just take hold of an idea and develop it beyond normal reckoning. Read more
Published on December 14, 2002 by paisleymonsoon

5.0 out of 5 stars Fantastic
Great book, no put down three weeks hungry tired saaadd
Published on February 15, 2000

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