So Help Me God: The Founding Fathers and the First Great Battle Over Church and State (Hardcover)

~ Forrest Church (Author)
Key Phrases: black regiment, presidential mansion, grand architect, New England, United States, White House (more...)

Editorial Reviews

From Publishers Weekly

Starred Review. Those who think that the past holds clear and reassuring lessons for today will be hard put to find them here. In this beautifully crafted and timely work, the aptly named Church (minister of Manhattan's Unitarian All Souls Church and author or editor of 22 books) takes us through the complex thoughts and actions of the nation's founders in a way that will give pause to most readers. Each of the nation's first five presidents saw the relationship between government and religion differently; each thought and acted in surprising ways not always in harmony with their private beliefs. What united them, says Church, was a deep commitment to the nation's welfare as they defined it. This civil religion, grounded in Protestant moral convictions, often took distinctive form, e.g., Washington lashing out at clerical interference in government and James Madison declaring four national fast days. The issues roiling their day were not ours, but they were equally fraught and equally unresolved. Church, who's too severe and present-minded about John Adams, makes clear that the tangled historic links between religion and politics were built into American history from the start and are unlikely to be dissolved. This is an important work that delights and informs. (Sept.)
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Review

ADVANCE PRAISE FOR SO HELP ME GOD

"A wide-angled view of the whole history of the early republic. Solid and scintillating." --Edwin S. Gaustad, author of Sworn on the Altar of God

"Magnificently combines a comprehensive knowledge of the history of the American presidency, a sophisticated appreciation for the intricacies of American politics, and a surpassing understanding of the role of religion in American life." --Senator Gary Hart, author of James Monroe

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Product Details Hardcover: 544 pages Publisher: Harcourt; 1 edition (September 10, 2007) Language: English ISBN-10: 0151011850 ISBN-13: 978-0151011858 Product Dimensions: 9.1 x 6.4 x 1.8 inches Shipping Weight: 1.9 pounds (View shipping rates and policies) Average Customer Review: 4.7 out of 5 stars  See all reviews (10 customer reviews) Amazon.com Sales Rank: #329,766 in Books (See Bestsellers in Books)

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Key Phrases - Statistically Improbable Phrases (SIPs): (learn more)
black regiment, presidential mansion, grand architect, churchgoing animal, sacred politics, voluntary establishment, sacred liberty

Key Phrases - Capitalized Phrases (CAPs): (learn more)
New England, United States, White House, John Adams, George Washington, New York, Timothy Dwight, Fourth of July, Jedidiah Morse, Thomas Jefferson, Mount Vernon, James Madison, Bill of Rights, General Washington, Great Britain, French Revolution, John Leland, Margaret Smith, President Monroe, Standing Order, Alexander Hamilton, Abigail Adams, Holy Alliance, Declaration of Independence, John Quincy

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Customer Reviews

10 Reviews 5 star:  (7) 4 star:  (3) 3 star:    (0) 2 star:    (0) 1 star:    (0)           Average Customer Review 4.7 out of 5 stars (10 customer reviews)		Share your thoughts with other customers:
Most Helpful Customer Reviews 10 of 10 people found the following review helpful: 5.0 out of 5 stars AGE-OLD BATTLE IN THE NEW WORLD, October 28, 2007 By  Laura Pedersen (New York, NY USA) - See all my reviews Forrest Church unites history and criticism in a timely, readable, informative and entertaining book about the role our Founding Fathers played in the great debate over separation of church and state. This tale of drama and trauma is rich with American history and the surprises that make for any gripping story - for instance, that the Unitarians, Congregationalists and Episcopalians were in favor of a Christian Nation whereas the Baptists championed the separation of church and state. As a result of being religious outsiders, the Baptists knew that they'd be persecuted if not protected under the newly formed American government. Also, how the War of 1812 nearly resulted in New England seceding from the Union to establish a Christian Commonwealth. A wonderful way with detail (and an enormous amount of research) provides reflections on the players and their time. Regarding the relationship between John Adams and Thomas Jefferson - "Theirs was a friendship between the Red Queen and the Cheshire Cat. At the slightest provocation, Adams shouted, 'Off with their heads'; at the first hint of conflict, Jefferson disappeared until nothing remained but his smile." Rev. Church offers insights on the way in which parallel battles over personal freedom continue today, not only with regard to teaching creationism in schools and allowing commandments in courthouses, but the current struggle over how much liberty must be sacrificed for security. Likewise, Rev. Church points out how wartime has always brought church and state closer together (during the Civil War "in God we trust" first appeared on our money), and in peacetime the two diverge. This cleverly crafted account of our nation's founders grappling with religion is a must read for anyone interested in theology, history, or politics (no coincidence that Rev. Church is the son of Idaho Senator Frank Church). It's not often one can say that a new book about an old debate covers fresh ground, but in addition to that, SO HELP ME GOD serves to inform as well as to warn, successfully fulfilling the task of a steadfast and faithful minister (at the Unitarian Church of All Souls in New York City). 11 of 12 people found the following review helpful: 5.0 out of 5 stars Did Washington Really Say These Words?, December 24, 2007 By  The Spinozanator (Waco, Texas) - See all my reviews (TOP 500 REVIEWER)       For those who think the first five presidents were devout Christians, the news is not good. Nor is the news good for those who think the country was non-religious. There was indeed a "culture war" going on and the arguments were not unlike today's insultfest. Also like today, mutual slanders were propagated by the media, the politicians, and the pulpit. Some things never change. * Only Adams was a church-goer all his life. Washington, Jefferson, and Madison attended church when living in the White House, seldom otherwise. Monroe didn't go even when he was President. They all doubted the divinity of Christ but all utilized a semblance of faith when it fit their agenda. From the onset in American politics, religion ended up being manipulated for political gain. * Washington scrupulously avoided the slightest hint of religious favoritism and would not abide any sectarian interference in the affairs of state. By the end of his second term, established church leaders were openly disenchanted with his ambiguous religious posture. He probably did say "So help me God" at his inauguration. * There would have been no Bill of Rights if it weren't for the Danbury Baptists of Connecticut. Madison and others thought a Bill of Rights was redundant but he needed their support for ratification of the Constitution. In exchange, he presented and fought for a Bill of Rights in the new Congress. * The Federalist party (mainly northern) was a coalition between those who wanted a strong federal government and the existing controlling Christian denominations (Presbyterians, Unitarians, Congregationalists, Anglicans). The Democratic/Republican party (mainly southern) was a coalition between those influenced by the European Enlightenment (Jefferson, et al) and the minority sects who were not powerful in any state (Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Jews). * Monroe was secular to the bone, too disinterested in religion to be disrespectful about anyone's cherished beliefs. His administration was the beneficiary of religious peace as the New England Federalist clerics lost their political franchise. States gradually relinquished support and entanglements with their pet denominations and churches doubled their enrollment. Separation of church and state appears to have helped religion flourish. An Epilogue records the last days of each President and reminds us that dying memorably is an art. "Tis well," Washington affirmed, summing up his magnificent life in two tiny words. Monroe held on until July 4, 1831, the 55th anniversary of Independence Day. Unfortunately, Adams and Jefferson had done it first, July 4, 1826. Madison made his quieter exit six days before July 4, 1836. Both sides mentioned in my opening paragraph cherry-pick their data to prove that the colonists and founding fathers were or weren't religious. This book settles the score. As usual, things are not black and white nor even gray - more like black and white paint mixed together, haphazardly stirred. Church is a lifelong scholar of early US history. He provides plenty of references and his assessments appear to this nonhistorian to be accurate. I guarantee you will be enthralled. 7 of 7 people found the following review helpful: 4.0 out of 5 stars First US religious/cultural war, December 16, 2007 By  César González Rouco (Madrid, Madrid Spain) - See all my reviews (REAL NAME)    The subtitle describes pretty well the content of this book, which aims to describe the first great cultural war in American political history. Pursuant to the author, the ideals of liberty and order will coexist in tension as they have in the nation's womb from the beginning. In that line, he thinks that today's US Christian campaigners and their secular critics seem almost timid compared to the warring American dreamers and would-be saviours who battled for votes in the American early republic. What I like the most is the way F. Church, with a stroke of his pen, vividly depicts the first five American President's religious stands, often making interesting parallels between them . E.g.: Washington. Just how religious was George Washington? The short answer is: "Not very" . He had much of the principle, little of the sentiment of religion. He was more moral than pious. John Adams. The Protestant ethic was bred in his bone. He didn't think like a true believer but he felt like a true believer. Thomas Jefferson. If Adams was skeptical about almost everything, Jefferson worshiped just as doggedly at the altar of reason and progress. He was a fundamentalist of the left, inflexible in his fidelity to rational religion. However, as devoted as Jefferson was to church-state separation, religion and politics mixed freely in Washington throughout his administration. James Madison. Jefferson supported freedom of religion to protect the state from the church but also to free mind from the state while Madison sought to protect the state from the church by encouraging sectarian competition and seems to have been a reverent agnostic (in the gentlest sense of the word, i.e., "unknowing"), too modest to advance any claims of his own and respectful of the claims promoted by others. James Monroe. His moral and religious character is closer in almost every respect to Washington's than to those of his senior partners in the Republican troika, Jefferson and Madison. He was a Stoic, a Mason, secular to the bone, conservative by nature, and not interested enough in religion to bother being disrespectful toward anyone's cherished beliefs. ... A final insight Church garnered along the way is this: In America's early politics, religion, even when entered into the halls of government freely, wound up being manipulated for political gain. When church and state tucked into bed together, it was the church that ended up asking, "Will you respect me in the morning?", and the answer was almost always "No". So I recommend it, my rate being between 4 (content) and 4 (pleasure, sometimes falling to 3, sometimes raising to 5). Other books I would also recommend would be the following: On the US: a) Religious history (interpreted sociologically): "The Churching Of America, 1776-2005: Winners And Losers In Our Religious Economy" by Roger Finke and Rodney Stark; b) Political history (Democracy and its discontents): "The Rise of American Democracy. Jefferson to Lincoln" by Sean Wilentz. On religion (published this very Fall): a) "Discovering God: The Origins of the Great Religions and the Evolution of Belief" by Rodney Stark (apologetic, brilliant and controversial); b) "Secular Age" by Charles Taylor (a fascinating voluminous social and intellectual history); c) "How to Read the Bible: A Guide to Scripture, Then and Now" by James L. Kugel (extremely scholarly and easy to read, a combination difficult to find).		Ad feedback   Most Recent Customer Reviews 5.0 out of 5 stars A real page turner! I just finished reading SO HELP ME GOD and have already begun a second read-through. I am so excited by what I've read. Read more Published 20 months ago by David E. Grimm 4.0 out of 5 stars Excellent, but would have liked a bit more of their behavior Church has given us an excellent description and analysis of the stances on religion of the first presidents of the US, from Washington through Monroe. Read more Published 22 months ago by Bobby Newman 4.0 out of 5 stars Excellent Read with Good Insight I was attracted to this book because of the Author and some prior experience I've had with other writings of his. Read more Published 23 months ago by B. Breen 5.0 out of 5 stars An excellent choice for both religious and history collections SO HELP ME GOD: THE FOUNDING FATHERS AND THE FIRST GREAT BATTLE OVER CHURCH AND STATE will prove an excellent choice for both religious and history collections from the young... Read more Published 23 months ago by Midwest Book Review 5.0 out of 5 stars 21st Century P.O.V. Reviewed by Jamie Driggers Separation of church and state has been a contentious issue on both sides of the discussion for many a year. Read more Published 24 months ago by armchairinterviews.com 5.0 out of 5 stars A GREAT READ I'm a business professor and native South African but thoroughly enjoyed this informative and entertaining look at American history. Read more Published on October 29, 2007 by William Pietersen 5.0 out of 5 stars So Help Me God I found this a very readable and very persuasive book. Forrest Church writes with the passion of a liberal theologian and the insight of a skilled historian. Read more Published on October 26, 2007 by Robert B. Oxnam Search Customer Reviews Only search this product's reviews

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Product Details

• Hardcover: 544 pages
• Publisher: Harcourt; 1 edition (September 10, 2007)
• Language: English
• ISBN-10: 0151011850
• ISBN-13: 978-0151011858
• Product Dimensions: 9.1 x 6.4 x 1.8 inches
• Shipping Weight: 1.9 pounds (View shipping rates and policies)
• Average Customer Review: 4.7 out of 5 stars  See all reviews (10 customer reviews)
• Amazon.com Sales Rank: #329,766 in Books (See Bestsellers in Books)

Customer Reviews

Most Helpful Customer Reviews

10 of 10 people found the following review helpful:

5.0 out of 5 stars AGE-OLD BATTLE IN THE NEW WORLD, October 28, 2007

By	Laura Pedersen (New York, NY USA) - See all my reviews

Forrest Church unites history and criticism in a timely, readable, informative and entertaining book about the role our Founding Fathers played in the great debate over separation of church and state. This tale of drama and trauma is rich with American history and the surprises that make for any gripping story - for instance, that the Unitarians, Congregationalists and Episcopalians were in favor of a Christian Nation whereas the Baptists championed the separation of church and state. As a result of being religious outsiders, the Baptists knew that they'd be persecuted if not protected under the newly formed American government. Also, how the War of 1812 nearly resulted in New England seceding from the Union to establish a Christian Commonwealth. A wonderful way with detail (and an enormous amount of research) provides reflections on the players and their time. Regarding the relationship between John Adams and Thomas Jefferson - "Theirs was a friendship between the Red Queen and the Cheshire Cat. At the slightest provocation, Adams shouted, 'Off with their heads'; at the first hint of conflict, Jefferson disappeared until nothing remained but his smile." Rev. Church offers insights on the way in which parallel battles over personal freedom continue today, not only with regard to teaching creationism in schools and allowing commandments in courthouses, but the current struggle over how much liberty must be sacrificed for security. Likewise, Rev. Church points out how wartime has always brought church and state closer together (during the Civil War "in God we trust" first appeared on our money), and in peacetime the two diverge. This cleverly crafted account of our nation's founders grappling with religion is a must read for anyone interested in theology, history, or politics (no coincidence that Rev. Church is the son of Idaho Senator Frank Church). It's not often one can say that a new book about an old debate covers fresh ground, but in addition to that, SO HELP ME GOD serves to inform as well as to warn, successfully fulfilling the task of a steadfast and faithful minister (at the Unitarian Church of All Souls in New York City).

11 of 12 people found the following review helpful:

5.0 out of 5 stars Did Washington Really Say These Words?, December 24, 2007

By	The Spinozanator (Waco, Texas) - See all my reviews (TOP 500 REVIEWER)

For those who think the first five presidents were devout Christians, the news is not good. Nor is the news good for those who think the country was non-religious. There was indeed a "culture war" going on and the arguments were not unlike today's insultfest. Also like today, mutual slanders were propagated by the media, the politicians, and the pulpit. Some things never change.

* Only Adams was a church-goer all his life. Washington, Jefferson, and Madison attended church when living in the White House, seldom otherwise. Monroe didn't go even when he was President. They all doubted the divinity of Christ but all utilized a semblance of faith when it fit their agenda. From the onset in American politics, religion ended up being manipulated for political gain.

* Washington scrupulously avoided the slightest hint of religious favoritism and would not abide any sectarian interference in the affairs of state. By the end of his second term, established church leaders were openly disenchanted with his ambiguous religious posture. He probably did say "So help me God" at his inauguration.

* There would have been no Bill of Rights if it weren't for the Danbury Baptists of Connecticut. Madison and others thought a Bill of Rights was redundant but he needed their support for ratification of the Constitution. In exchange, he presented and fought for a Bill of Rights in the new Congress.

* The Federalist party (mainly northern) was a coalition between those who wanted a strong federal government and the existing controlling Christian denominations (Presbyterians, Unitarians, Congregationalists, Anglicans). The Democratic/Republican party (mainly southern) was a coalition between those influenced by the European Enlightenment (Jefferson, et al) and the minority sects who were not powerful in any state (Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Jews).

* Monroe was secular to the bone, too disinterested in religion to be disrespectful about anyone's cherished beliefs. His administration was the beneficiary of religious peace as the New England Federalist clerics lost their political franchise. States gradually relinquished support and entanglements with their pet denominations and churches doubled their enrollment. Separation of church and state appears to have helped religion flourish.

An Epilogue records the last days of each President and reminds us that dying memorably is an art. "Tis well," Washington affirmed, summing up his magnificent life in two tiny words. Monroe held on until July 4, 1831, the 55th anniversary of Independence Day. Unfortunately, Adams and Jefferson had done it first, July 4, 1826. Madison made his quieter exit six days before July 4, 1836.

Both sides mentioned in my opening paragraph cherry-pick their data to prove that the colonists and founding fathers were or weren't religious. This book settles the score. As usual, things are not black and white nor even gray - more like black and white paint mixed together, haphazardly stirred. Church is a lifelong scholar of early US history. He provides plenty of references and his assessments appear to this nonhistorian to be accurate. I guarantee you will be enthralled.

7 of 7 people found the following review helpful:

4.0 out of 5 stars First US religious/cultural war, December 16, 2007

By	César González Rouco (Madrid, Madrid Spain) - See all my reviews (REAL NAME)

The subtitle describes pretty well the content of this book, which aims to describe the first great cultural war in American political history. Pursuant to the author, the ideals of liberty and order will coexist in tension as they have in the nation's womb from the beginning. In that line, he thinks that today's US Christian campaigners and their secular critics seem almost timid compared to the warring American dreamers and would-be saviours who battled for votes in the American early republic.

What I like the most is the way F. Church, with a stroke of his pen, vividly depicts the first five American President's religious stands, often making interesting parallels between them . E.g.:

Washington. Just how religious was George Washington? The short answer is: "Not very" . He had much of the principle, little of the sentiment of religion. He was more moral than pious.

John Adams. The Protestant ethic was bred in his bone. He didn't think like a true believer but he felt like a true believer.

Thomas Jefferson. If Adams was skeptical about almost everything, Jefferson worshiped just as doggedly at the altar of reason and progress. He was a fundamentalist of the left, inflexible in his fidelity to rational religion. However, as devoted as Jefferson was to church-state separation, religion and politics mixed freely in Washington throughout his administration.

James Madison. Jefferson supported freedom of religion to protect the state from the church but also to free mind from the state while Madison sought to protect the state from the church by encouraging sectarian competition and seems to have been a reverent agnostic (in the gentlest sense of the word, i.e., "unknowing"), too modest to advance any claims of his own and respectful of the claims promoted by others.

James Monroe. His moral and religious character is closer in almost every respect to Washington's than to those of his senior partners in the Republican troika, Jefferson and Madison. He was a Stoic, a Mason, secular to the bone, conservative by nature, and not interested enough in religion to bother being disrespectful toward anyone's cherished beliefs.

...

A final insight Church garnered along the way is this: In America's early politics, religion, even when entered into the halls of government freely, wound up being manipulated for political gain. When church and state tucked into bed together, it was the church that ended up asking, "Will you respect me in the morning?", and the answer was almost always "No".

So I recommend it, my rate being between 4 (content) and 4 (pleasure, sometimes falling to 3, sometimes raising to 5).

Other books I would also recommend would be the following:

On the US: a) Religious history (interpreted sociologically): "The Churching Of America, 1776-2005: Winners And Losers In Our Religious Economy" by Roger Finke and Rodney Stark; b) Political history (Democracy and its discontents): "The Rise of American Democracy. Jefferson to Lincoln" by Sean Wilentz.

On religion (published this very Fall): a) "Discovering God: The Origins of the Great Religions and the Evolution of Belief" by Rodney Stark (apologetic, brilliant and controversial); b) "Secular Age" by Charles Taylor (a fascinating voluminous social and intellectual history); c) "How to Read the Bible: A Guide to Scripture, Then and Now" by James L. Kugel (extremely scholarly and easy to read, a combination difficult to find).