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Church of Rome at the Bar of History
 
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Church of Rome at the Bar of History (Paperback)

~ William David Webster (Author)
3.3 out of 5 stars  See all reviews (19 customer reviews)

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Church of Rome at the Bar of History + Getting to Know the Church Fathers: An Evangelical Introduction + For Us and for Our Salvation: The Doctrine of Christ in the Early Church
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  • This item: Church of Rome at the Bar of History by William David Webster

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Editorial Reviews

Product Description

Focusing on major issues and in a non-polemical way, William Webster raises questions about doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church that current Catholics claim as part of a changeless creed, but which were not held by predecessors.

Product Details

  • Paperback: 244 pages
  • Publisher: Banner of Truth (November 1, 1997)
  • Language: English
  • ISBN-10: 0851517102
  • ISBN-13: 978-0851517100
  • Product Dimensions: 8.3 x 5.4 x 1.3 inches
  • Shipping Weight: 1.6 ounces (View shipping rates and policies)
  • Average Customer Review: 3.3 out of 5 stars  See all reviews (19 customer reviews)
  • Amazon.com Sales Rank: #241,293 in Books (See Bestsellers in Books)

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Customer Reviews

19 Reviews
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Average Customer Review
3.3 out of 5 stars (19 customer reviews)
 
 
 
 
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38 of 46 people found the following review helpful:
5.0 out of 5 stars Be Careful how you use, May 3, 2003
By Alexander Scott (Birmingham, AL) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)      
I believe this to be a 5-star book, but I am concerned about who reads it. I can't imagine any Catholic reading this book and believing the material; unless you're a Catholic who is genuinely questioning the authority of your church this will only get your hackles up. Protestants who are strong in their faith don't need historical evidence to be convinced of their beliefs, so I am afraid that this book will only serve to poison your spirit against Catholic brothers and sisters.

To those very close to a Catholic: this book is immensely helpful in deciding what to believe. You are bomabarded constantly with Catholic claims to "catholicity"; that is, that Christ instituted only one church (naturally, the RCC) and that all Christians everywhere and for all time have believed exactly what the RCC says. Along the same lines, Reformation beliefs are johnny-come-lately's and that Protestants should return to the "real" church. This is the most difficult argument of Catholics to wrestle with, because Bible verses can be interpreted differently as can fruits of the Spirit but history is a fact.

Well, Webster blows the "catholic" argument out of the water. He has an easy job, because he doesn't have to show that Church Fathers would have been Protestant, merely that some beliefs of each father go against modern Catholicism. By quoting historical documents (which are extensively referenced), he shows that the early Church contained a mix of "Catholic" and "Protestant" beliefs (at best) or were entirely opposed to an idea like a papacy at the beginning. He admits that the doctrine of the Eucharist is the best supported historically, but even so, some authoritative writers explicitly supported views more like Calvin's on the topic.

I would say, then, that Webster succeeds in using his book to show that Reformation beliefs had support in the early Church and that the RCC is unjustified in dismissing Protestant beliefs as going against history, and that even some of its own beliefs contradict the statements of those it uses for support. Even if it does not convince, for whatever reason, a single Catholic, I am convinced that I should not be swayed by any claims of the RCC to sole ownership of history.

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28 of 34 people found the following review helpful:
3.0 out of 5 stars Some good arguments, some bad, November 21, 2003
By Seth Aaron Lowry (Olean, NY United States) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)   
William Webster has developed his little apologetics niche by arguing against the claims made by the Roman Catholic Church. Unfortunately, in this book he offers some really good arguments along with some really terrible ones. First the positive aspects of the book. Webster does a great job of dealing with the more Protestant oriented issues like justification, faith, and the Scriptures. I believe Webster argues convincingly that the deutero-cannonicals were not considered authoritative Scripture by the Church fathers. Nevertheless, he fails to take into consideration the fact that many of the fathers meant different things when they referred to the canon as opposed to Scripture. Just because the Fathers didn't regard the deuteros as part of the Christian canon, or books read during the liturgical season, doesn't mean they didn' regard them as Scripture. In fact, Athanasius lists the books of the canon as the 66 found in Protestant bibles minus Esther, but elsewhere in his writings he repeatedly refers to many of the apocryphal books as Scripture. Either he contradicted himself on many occasions or he had two divergent notions as to what the canon was and what was Scripture.

When it comes to other issues like justification Webster is correct in his assessments of the the different ideas held by Protestants and Catholics, but he doesn't do enough to convince that his views are correct. Examining the Marian doctrines, Webster illustrates dogmas such as the assumption and immaculate conception weren't held by the Church Fathers. Also, his work on the supposed evolution of the papacy is also strong, but to understand that issue one should read his longer work, The Matthew 16 Controversey, for a fuller and more thorough line of argumentation. I believe that these sections were the stronger sections of the book, and the ones that were more convincing and persuasive in their argumentation.

I think where Webster really goes off track is when he deals with issues like the Eucharist and the Sacraments. First, I don't know what qualifications Webster used to determine that Justin Martyr believed in consubstantiation while Ignatius of Antioch believed in transubstantiation. There is one time in Justin's Apology where he specifically says the bread and wine in the Eucharist is transmuted into the body and blood of Christ. Hardly, Lutheran type consubstantiation language to me. Also, to say that the Didache and Eusebius taught that the bread and wine were merely symbols is hard to swallow. First, Eusebius refers elsewhere in his writings to the bread and wine as the body and blood of Christ, so either he contradicts himself or means something different by the word symbol; In fact, Webster never examines the argument that the Greek word for symbol does not mean symbol in the way English speaking people understand it. In the Greek the word had a much stronger connotation and meaning, which can be evinced by the fact that many Fathers stated that Jesus Christ was the true symbol of God. They weren't saying that he just signified God, but that he was truly and actually God in the flesh. Finally, saying Augustine believed in a spiritual presense only does not take into his many statements where he says that the bread and the cup are truly Christ's body and blood. What I thought was really appalling was Webster's treatment of baptism. After stating that Fathers were unanimously agreed that baptism was efficacious for regeneration, spiritual life, and the remission of sins, Webster proceeds to state they were all wrong and then argues for a Zwinglian interpretation of baptism. I don't know about you, but if I have to choose between the unanimous opinion of the Fathers who much closer to the time of the Apostles, or the private opinions of one man writing in the 16th century, I will side with the Fathers. Overall, an interesting read, but I think Webster would be better served if he took each subject individually and wrote a more detailed examination of each topic.

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8 of 9 people found the following review helpful:
5.0 out of 5 stars Found wanting, June 25, 2006
By Dr. Joseph Mizzi (Malta, Europe) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)   
An excellent introduction to the writings of the church fathers. A must read for Catholics and Protestants alike. Were the characteristic doctrines of the modern Roman Catholic Church taught and believed in the early church? William Webster proves from the patristic writings that such doctrines as auricular confession, the marian dogmas and papal infallibility did not originate in Scripture or the tradition of the early Christian church. The church of Rome is placed at the bar of history and she is found wanting.
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Most Recent Customer Reviews

1.0 out of 5 stars Anti-Catholic Trash! Banner of Lies!
Malicious deceit and intellectual dishonesty are what you will find in Webster's book.

Did this author drop out of school at Grade 1 or spent too many years snorting... Read more
Published 15 days ago by Sexy Bachelor

1.0 out of 5 stars Selective quotations?
How could the author write a book and try his very best to find support for his doctrines coming from the Early Church Fathers? Read more
Published 6 months ago by Jae

2.0 out of 5 stars Don't Take My (or Webster's) Word for It
Mr. Webster takes a swing at reading the early Christians and the Church Fathers, which is commendable for a Protestant Christian, but he selectively and sparsely quotes from... Read more
Published 7 months ago by Devin Rose

3.0 out of 5 stars Misses the mark
As a former Roman Catholic, turned agnostic, now Christian after studying the Bible for myself; this book misses the mark. Read more
Published on October 24, 2007 by Joseph Cipriani

1.0 out of 5 stars Great Use of Selective Quoting
Any one interested in this owes it to themselves to read Steven Ray's UPON THIS ROCK which scholarly illustrates through extensive footnotes how Webster uses selecting quoting of... Read more
Published on September 8, 2003 by M. Kerezman

5.0 out of 5 stars "Biased Ignorance"
It is a unclear whether or not the previous reader has even read the book...

1. Addressed in the book. See pp 10-11.
2. Maybe the reviewer should read the book. Read more

Published on January 7, 2003

5.0 out of 5 stars Is the Catholic Church the unwavering repositor of truth?
This book is a must read for those who are unaware of the actual extent to which historic church fathers disagreed with the Roman Catholic Church's claims on various matters of... Read more
Published on June 25, 2001

1.0 out of 5 stars A Sad exercise in biased ignorance
Let's just take a few of the claims.

1) That the apocrypha was not canonized until the Council of Trent. Jerome included it in the Vulgate 11 centuries prior to Trent. Read more

Published on June 8, 2001

4.0 out of 5 stars Catholics and Evangelicals Differ - This Book Shows Us Why!
This well-documented work details where and why Evangelicals differ with the Catholic Church. Appendices offer writings of the early Church Fathers on such issues as the 'Rock'... Read more
Published on March 21, 2000 by K. W. Doten

5.0 out of 5 stars Roman Catholics Must Abandon Historical Arguments
Having abandoned any hope of finding justification for their belief system in the Bible, Roman Catholics have turned to their perception of the beliefs of the early church... Read more
Published on October 25, 1999

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