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is GTA 4 suitable for 15yr old?


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Showing 51-75 of 251 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 6:03:43 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 4, 2008 6:04:40 PM PDT
Andrew Theis says:
Had you actually read parts of my post you would see that I agree this iteration of GTA is not suitable for a 15 year old, but I'm also dead set on refuting your inaccuracies about the game. And again you bring up the red light thing without addressing the real issue with the red light question. Why would you stop when the rules of the game say you don't have to? You can choose to stop and fail, but you aren't required to stop, by not stopping you aren't breaking the laws of the game, its your choice to place the rules of reality on a simulation of reality.

And video games are an artform. the newest and most controversial art from of the 20th and 21st centuries. And by comparing GTA to bestiality degrades art, GTA, and all video games. Huge blockbuster games aren't art? Perhaps you should read the one of two books out on video game art. Called simply Video Game Art, by Nic Kelman.

And the ESRB has censored video games in the past. Manhunt 2. Given an AO rating when it originally came out due to graphic violence (not one I would recommend for a 15 year old, but mainly because the controls are atrocious.) Now this might not seem like censorship to a noob (and I use this term to identify myself as a young gamer diligently learning 1337 speak from the Rosetta Stone) BUT Walmarts, Targets, Meyers, etc many stores refuse to sell AO rated games. And the consoles themselves refuse to allow AO games on their systems. AO ratings are the industries way of destroying a video game.

And to whom are these media that don't show repercussions for actions damaging to? children? because then you're just arguing semantics over whether or not a 15year old is considered a child or an adolescent or young person, or whatever.

I say yes GTA is art because of the storytelling and the execution. Okami is visually beautiful yes and I would also say that it is art. I have never played it so I cannot comment on the story. Any game that teaches us something, albeit consciously or unconsciously has elements of art.

And with the internet today there is no age requirement for pornography, there is no age requirement to enter contests via website which ask for a birth date, there is no "you must be 18 to enter."

We aren't talking about kids wondering around the internet and finding this content. We are talking about a parent questioning whether or not they should buy the game for their 15 year old child. I say if the child is mature, and the parent is the only one who knows that, then sure, but make sure you understand what is in the game. And you have misrepresented the game. As someone working to fight censorship you have done your cause a disservice. You should know better, the politicians misconstrue games to help place blame on them.

(oh and P.S., I'm an art student and have been playing some variation of the GTA series since I was 11. You know what it did to me. It opened my mind to the world of great storytelling, the advertisements in the game inspired me to view art more openly. To try and compare Grand Theft Auto to beastiality to refute my claims. Thats just asinine.)

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 7:20:08 PM PDT
EvanGMan says:
Ah yes, the old "You need to spend less time on the computer..." comeback. Interesting, seeing as how you haven't skipped a beat in replying to my posts, and it was nearly a day before I replied to your second or third go-around. Keeping this in mind, I should be giving you the same advice.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 7:33:47 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 4, 2008 7:38:38 PM PDT
Jason Lee says:
Hmm, no, I'm aware how much time I spend on the computer. I write crap for TV and film, so I'm a total shut-in. I do need some sun; if I was any more white, I'd be a Republican, har har.

Don't you have any more political rhetoric to babble about...?

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 7:39:04 PM PDT
EvanGMan says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 7:42:58 PM PDT
EvanGMan says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 8:29:25 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 4, 2008 8:41:38 PM PDT
Andrew Theis says:
You seem to like making a lot of wild claims. And the only reason my brow furrows is to vent some of the pressure upon my brain so it won't implode on itself because of your ignorance. You say that some claim pornography is art, then you go on to assume that those views are my own and I should defend them. I have never made that claim. And it is shameful, twisted, and disgusting that you would try a tactic like that. It proves that you have run out of errors in my argument. You refuse to acknowledge the points of my argument about GTA and reality. And you strike at the most complex and abstract part of my argument.

You clearly only hear what you want to hear. You don't refute my claims at all. All you seem to do is claim that art can't come from money. All art must come from poverty? Do you know anything of the art world. No don't answer that I already know you don't. Let me tell you about Damien Hirst. A British artist famous for "The physical impossibility of death in the mind of the living." Don't look it up, you won't understand it and you'll claim it isn't art because you yourself lack the discipline and the interest to understand modern art. But Damien requires a lot of money to create his pieces. They are still art. It is amazing art.

And, to compare GTA with a summer blockbuster movie is absurd. It is clear that there are classifications for making a movie art. There are classifications for making a game art. GTA meets those classifications because of the amazing experience it creates. The emotions it makes you feel. The story it allows you to experience. The questions it makes you ask yourself. And it did make me ask myself questions. When I play a game, I'm not a mindless zombie that accepts all the game throws at me. Those kind of people are the ones who go out and shoot up the neighborhood after finding daddy's gun and blame it on GTA. When given the choice to kill, I stopped and thought, that thinking is the birth of art. That thinking is something you don't seem to do often.

P.S. you have still failed to acknowledge that we agreed it isn't appropriate for children 15 and younger. noob.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 8:31:06 PM PDT
Andrew Theis says:
Oh by the way. Obama says that media censorship is the job of the parents. If you really are working to keep the government from censoring video games, shouldn't you know that?

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 8:37:41 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 4, 2008 9:21:15 PM PDT
Jason Lee says:
Great, you took my bait! You revealed clearly that you are not here to participate in this discussion, but promote your politics that nobody cares about. I, on the other hand, never discuss my politics, so I'll have you keep guessing what I am, politically.

As for the art debate, video games are art. Art, since you are ignorant, is subjective. Plenty of people view the statue of David as misogynistic and sexist, others see a monumental piece of craftsmanship. Some people view Pollack as a paint splattering nothing, others think he's an abstract expressionist. Everyone is right, because everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

Is THE MATRIX series about religious and political allegory? Or is it just 9 hours of kung fu? I think Oliver Stone's WORLD TRADE CENTER was terrible art, because of it's terrible execution. But I fully appreciate that other people LOVED it. And that's cool.

I don't understand why you think just because a product has a multi-million dollar advertising budget isn't art. And yes, a Sundance film can be just as artistic as a Summer blockbuster. Shyamalan's SIGNS made $400 million. But is the story about an alien invasion, or, about a man and his faith? Yeah, it was a blockbuster, and while I thought it was mediocre, it had a profound influence on my mother-in-law.

Sometimes, people can set out to make mindless entertainment, and end up creating something millions find profoundly meaningful to their lives. And more frequently, vice versa. Art is like a Rorschach test. And speaking as a writer, there are only two kinds of art in the world. Good art. And bad art. I mean, by all means, I think Britany Spears's music is art. Just, not good art.

So the question shouldn't be "Is GTA 4 art?" Because it obviously is. The question should be, "Is GTA 4 GOOD or BAD art? With Okami, while I thought it had great production values, and graphically gorgeous, I don't view the story as good art. It was... okay, at best. If you loved it, cool, tell me why you loved it.

If the boys and gals behind GTA 4 only cared about making money, then they wouldn't have invested all that time into the writing. Nor would many reviews cite the STORY to be one of the best aspects of the game. You might not have cared about the story and characters, but I did. It's the only GTA game where I wanted to advance the story, as opposed to wreck havoc on the city. I genuinely had concern for Niko, inspired by Roman's optimisim, and was upset to learn that Packie was molested by his father, as a child. And that Alex's egotism is derived from her battle with anorexia, as a teen. And for balance, I was fully annoyed by Brucie's sexism, etc. And like someone else pointed out, GTA's satirical take on politics in America made me CARE about politics for once.

Whatever you might think are the whys and wherefores of Rockstar making GTA 4, just know that you are always entitled to your own opinions, but you are never entitled to your own facts.

But as I said, I don't believe it's about age, at that age, but what 15 year olds are ready for in their fiction. And I really believe most 15 year olds are fine playing GTA 4. It's about moderation.

And I strongly disagree that allowing them to play this game contributes to "giving up on the world."

I think the fact that there are 2 million dead beat dads in the US alone is probably more significant. People not caring enough that 3,000 children die every day in Africa for a lack of a bed net, I think, is considered "giving up."

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 8:58:15 PM PDT
It's fine. It's nothing that your kid hasn't seen before. If you think you are protecting him or her, you're lying to yourself. As long as your kid has a generally sensible head on his shoulders, and is relatively mature, he can handle the graphic nature of this game.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 9:23:03 PM PDT
EvanGMan says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 9:30:14 PM PDT
EvanGMan says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 9:53:00 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 4, 2008 9:55:24 PM PDT
Jason Lee says:
Sorry, no, I never said Iraqi civilians are dying "for no specific reason." I said, our Government downplayed the body-count. And I didn't list those counterpoints to preach, but to offer things I feel are more urgent and deleterious than a video game. As Andrew said, you are twisting around words to set up straw men, and misinterpret everything we've said.

Maybe it was your agenda to "change minds." But it wasn't mine. I wanted to have a dialogue.

And as I said before, I thought WORLD TRADE CENTER was awful art, but other people loved it, and I think that's wonderful. Maybe you're a bit immature and get upset when people have differing opinions.

By the way, I believe pornography is art. And the question being, is pornography good art or is it bad art? I think Jenna Jameson porn isn't very artful. However, Alan Moore's LOST GIRLS is a wonderful piece of pornographic art.

And what you also fail to appreciate are the child psychologists who disagree with you. Again, you are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 10:11:13 PM PDT
EvanGMan says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 10:21:38 PM PDT
Jason Lee says:
Again, you're guilty of misreading. I never suggested that we shouldn't care about violent video games. Have fun setting up more straw men.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 10:29:23 PM PDT
EvanGMan says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 10:30:13 PM PDT
Andrew Theis says:
You don't give our children enough credit.

And GTA came out in April. April is not the summer. it is the spring.

And you are the one oversimplifying my arguments, not me. If you don't care about art then you can't comment on whether or not GTA is art. Only those that really care should be allowed to comment on the topic.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 10:32:37 PM PDT
Andrew Theis says:
You aren't entitled to grossly misrepresent the game which you did in the past. So stop commenting on it. I find your child psychology nonsense to be just that. Psychology is the weakest of the sciences. Art is the strongest of all the... arts.

That you can't refute. Porn is no where near the level of GTA. You belittle the game you claimed to enjoy by saying that.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 10:33:42 PM PDT
Andrew Theis says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 10:37:25 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 4, 2008 10:37:51 PM PDT
EvanGMan says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 10:41:14 PM PDT
Andrew Theis says:
So I'm throwing my life away by devoting it to my passion, and you are passing judgment because of a course you took in school, intro to psyche? Or was it, "how to completely misrepresent an argument and then start ad hominem attacks".

Do you know what ad hominem means? I can decline it for you if you'd like. Although, I am just an art student, so I'm probably not good at anything academic.

And for your information, I don't go to an art school. I go to a small liberal arts college. Very credited, very respected in the intellectual circles. don't try to pull that elitist bs on me.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 10:42:26 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 4, 2008 10:43:59 PM PDT
Jason Lee says:
Straw men.

Furthermore, the topic is "Is GTA 4 suitable for 15yr old?" I think Andrew and I've stayed reasonable well on topic, even though we disagree.

You think anyone below the age of 17 is incapable of comprehending the concept of morality, and I disagree. Teens aren't THAT callow.

You may need to meet more teens. Or at least, read James Paul Gee.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 10:44:04 PM PDT
EvanGMan says:
I'd love for you to decline ad hominem for me. Does your browser not have a spell check, or are you just playing into the art student stereotype for my entertainment?

What did you do to get into school? Did you draw a picture?

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 10:49:52 PM PDT
EvanGMan says:
No, no, this is too perfect. You say "straw men" in your post, and then ONE sentence after, you yourself present a straw man argument. That's hilarious.

I did not say teens are incapable of comprehending the concept of morality. I talked about the concept of the anti-hero. The two are very different.

Wow. Just wow.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 10:53:51 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 4, 2008 10:55:07 PM PDT
Jason Lee says:
"GTA blurs the lines of good and evil for a child."

Hypocrite.

As Andrew pointed out earlier, you're wrong on this. Don't fret, I fully accept your apology.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008 10:58:54 PM PDT
EvanGMan says:
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Discussion in:  Action Game forum
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Initial post:  May 28, 2008
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