Customer Discussions > Blu-ray forum

Monsters Inc. audio track?


Sort: Oldest first | Newest first
Showing 1-12 of 12 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Feb 21, 2013 2:39:50 PM PST
Homerkong says:
I have BD copy of monsters inc that came out a year or so ago. I just read a review for the rerelease of this movie and the review was saying how they upgraded the audio track from DTS HD 5.1 to DolbyHD 7.1. I've played this movie for my daughter about a month ago and I just checked it after I read the review and my receiver decodes it at DTS HD 7.1, was wondering if anybody else's receiver is decoding the movie like this. Go to the review www.highdefdigest.com

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 22, 2013 5:19:04 PM PST
EdM says:
According to http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Monsters-Inc-Blu-ray/62511/#Review

"In 2009, Monsters, Inc. made its Blu-ray debut with an outstanding DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 surround track. And, some four years later, that track still holds up. Disney wasn't content to simply recycle an old mix, though -- however enveloping and electrifying it may be -- and the 2013 Blu-ray release of Monsters, Inc. features a rousing Dolby TrueHD 7.1 surround track. For the most part, the lossless mixes are eerily similar..."

The actual upgraded 7.1 Dolby TrueHD is only on the BDs that issued Feb 19, 2013. However, some receivers will provide a 7.1 track by doubling [in some way] the rears of a 5.1 audio track. What you observe has to do with what your receiver does, rather than what the original, but still fine BD version does. For more...

http://hometheater.about.com/od/hometheateraudiobasics/qt/5-1vs7-1diff.htm

"2. ... If you have a 7.1 channel receiver with audio input and processing capability via HDMI connections (not pass-through only connections), you can take advantage of some, or all, of these audio capabilities. Check the specifications, or user manual, for each 7.1 channel receiver you may be considering for more specifics on its HDMI capabilities."

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 23, 2013 8:50:53 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 23, 2013 9:17:18 AM PST
Techie says:
Actually, the track in the original release is a DTS HD 5.1 "ES" (often mislabeled as EX which is the Dolby moniker for the same thing) which means it has matrixed channels embedded in the surrounds which can be decoded into extra rear channels. Your receiver is simply decoding the ES (Extended Surround) and providing the 7.1 sound that is embedded in the 5.1 track. Basically, all Disney did is take the matrix out of the surrounds and give them their own channel. According to EdM's quote from Blu-ray.com, it says the mixes are eerily similar.....geez, can't imagine why.

DTS HD 5.1 is not the same as DTS HD MA. DTS HD is an "ES" surround format (without the ES labeling most of the time ) limited to 5.1 channels and a 96KHz/24bit delivery which may or may not include extra channels depending on whether the mix is matrixed for one and is not commonly used anymore since the majority of receivers on sale these days are 7.1 capable receivers. DTS HD MA has a higher bitrate of 192KHZ/24bit on 5.1 configuration and 96KHz/24bit on 7.1 channels and allows for the extra channels to be discrete. Movies which have 7.1 soundtracks have the rears downmixed into a 5.1 configuration by the receiver when it is set up as only having a 5.1 speaker arrangement.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 23, 2013 2:19:39 PM PST
Techie says: "Actually, the track in the original release is a DTS HD 5.1 "ES" (often mislabeled as EX which is the Dolby moniker for the same thing)"

There is no such DTS HD 5.1 ES format. The only HD formats offerered by DTS are Master Audio and High Resolution.

You might be thinking of DTS-ES 5.1 (matrix) and 6.1 (discrete) formats. However, neither was used on Monsters, Inc discs. According to Internet sources, the Dolby EX format is offered on DVD and Blu-ray, and either 5.1 DTS-HD Master Audio and 7.1 Dolby TrueHD for the latter.

http://www.dts.com/professionals/sound-technologies/audio-formats.aspx

Techie says: "DTS HD MA has a higher bitrate of 192KHZ/24bit on 5.1 configuration and 96KHz/24bit on 7.1 channels and allows for the extra channels to be discrete."

On paper maybe. According to blu-raystats dot com, in practice there are a miniscule number of BR discs containing 192kHz/24 resolutions and only a slightly larger smattering of 96kHz resolution. In fact, the number of 16bit/48kHz (DVD resolution) soundtracks vastly outnumber the previous two combined. The dominant resolution is 24bit/48kHz.

http://www.blu-raystats.com/Stats/TechStats.php

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 23, 2013 2:31:28 PM PST
Homerkong,
There are a couple of possibilities causing the 7.1 playback.
1. A setting in the AV receiver is matrixing the extra surround channels
2. The lossy Dolby EX soundtrack was chosen on the disc

The AV receiver's display during movie playback will list the audio technology in use. If DTS-HD Master Audio alone is displayed then a setting in the Receiver is causing it to matrix the additional channels. If Neo 6, Pro Logic II, or anything other than the Master Audio is displayed, again, a Receiver feature is the cause.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 23, 2013 11:05:18 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 23, 2013 11:51:31 PM PST
Techie says:
You should check your facts before you post garbage. Explain these specs for these movies then:

"http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Lord-of-the-Rings-The-Motion-Picture-Trilogy-Blu-ray/5174/#Review":
"Audio
English: DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 ES Matrix
Spanish: Dolby Digital 2.0
Spanish: Dolby Digital 5.1 EX"

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Monsters-Inc-Blu-ray/761/#Overview:
Audio
"English: DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 ES Matrix
French: Dolby Digital 5.1
Spanish: Dolby Digital 5.1"

Here is also a link from someone at the AVS forum that shows the DTS HD MA Encoding program has ES Matrix and Discrete in the selection menu:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/attachments/av-amplifiers-receivers/198809d1283440802-dts-ma-matrixed-channels-es-encoding-problems-master-audio-test-drive1.jpg

The manual for the suite actually provides a discussion of matrix encoding in the HD MA section, shown here:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/attachments/av-amplifiers-receivers/199047d1283544354-dts-ma-matrixed-channels-es-encoding-problems-readitandweep.jpg

So it is actually possible and the specs listed above are not misprints.

Now the question begs to be asked, why matrix a soundtrack when each channel is capable of being delivered discretely? My guess is they repurposed the audio mix used for the original film release and also used for the DVD. Since the soundtracks are normally stored in a channel separated full resolution mix so that it can then be encoded in the appropriate codec for film distribution to theaters (Dolby EX, DTS ES, SDDS...whatever) this was used for the original Blu-ray Release and also used for the DVD release. And matrix soundtracks use analog phase sum and difference between two channels so when it is encoded into a digital track, the matrix can exist embedded in the analog sound because the digital doesn't really care what the analog sound is, it is just a digital representation of the analog sound. There is quite a bit of discussion throughout the various Blu-ray forums about whether the DTS-HD MA ES soundtracks are legitimate, because most receivers won't look for the ES flag when using the DTS HD MA track. But there are people who have been able to "force" their receivers to decode the DTS-HD MA ES track by turning the ES on manually. Note that if there is no matrix there for it to decode, the rear centers would produce no sound. If they do produce sound with ES mode turned on, there is a matrix there for it to find, and it has been confirmed on these discs that there is sound on the center rears. It also appears that receivers have upgraded firmware, when capable, that now allows them to be able to detect the ES flag and enable ES decoding with DTS HD MA. I've found this on many of the forum discussions of the LOTR theatrical release, which is where the problem came to light with the general public.

Now for the Monsters, Inc. disc, I don't know if they went back to the pre-final mix before the rears were matrixed together for the recent release or whether they actually retrieved the rear channels by using a matrix processor, but it is the consensus of the reviewers that the soundtracks for both releases are identical, save the separate discrete rears for the latter as opposed to the matrix originally used. The original information I found on the Monsters, Inc disc listed the disc as being the HD High Resolution format, which is obviously incorrect.

The DTS HD High Resolution has commonly used the matrix configuration rather than full discrete channels because it is still a lossy codec with limited bandwidth and would benefit from the matrix increasing the bitrate, where the Master Audio Lossless would not because of the adequate bandwidth allocated for the codec. As for the comment on the bitrates, the High Resolution being limited to 5.1 was incorrect, it can carry 7.1 discretely but is rarely used that way, again because of the bandwidth constraints. All of the DTS HD High Resolution tracks I have found are 5.1 and 5.1 ES. Whether the movies use the max bitrate....the codec is capable of it, which was my only implication, not to imply that it was actually used.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 24, 2013 10:08:24 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 24, 2013 10:16:05 AM PST
Techie says: "You should check your facts before you post garbage."

Apparently. That's a my bad on me. Guess its not safe to assume that the owner of the Monsters, Inc BR disc would have the wits to look at the Audio information printed on the disc container before posting a query on a forum.

Further, its not safe to assume as I did, that EdM would have already checked the Blu-ray.com website thoroughly to see if the ES encode was used with he Master Audio soundtrack. In fairness to EdM, I looked at the information on the BR stats website and no mention was made of an ES encode on the soundtrack.
http://www.blu-raystats.com/Stats/Details.php?ifb=MonstersInc_786936773736

And by all means, Techie, thank you for your refined use of the word "garbage." Very classy.

Techie says: "Explain these specs for these movies then...
English: DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 ES Matrix"

That is a DTS-HD Master Audio format with the ES Matrix embedded, not DTS HD ES as you were stating in your previous post. Since "Matrix" is citied, its apparent that the rear channel does not offer discrete information; IOW, the rear channel is a derivative of the surround channels. If ES Discrete was used, then the soundtrack would be a 6.1 configurtion. You probably don't remember writing in the previous post, exact quote: "DTS HD 5.1 is not the same as DTS HD MA. DTS HD is an "ES" surround format..." Looks like garbage is on your turf, not mine.

Techie says: "Now the question begs to be asked, why matrix a soundtrack when each channel is capable of being delivered discretely? "

Obviously discrete rear channels were never mastered-in during the original digital/analog production. So it would likely be cheaper/easier to add the ES coding than create a 7.1 soundtrack. The ES embed probably requires no tweaking and consumer playback hardware already utilizes the technology. Creating the 7.1 DD TrueHD track alleviates any playback hardware problems, for those who want eight channels. Nice for the consumer, but more work for the studio.

Techie says: "As for the comment on the bitrates, the High Resolution being limited to 5.1 was incorrect, it can carry 7.1 discretely"

Not sure who/what you're referring to. My post made no mention of bit rates or channel limitations with the DTS High Resolution format. Not that it is anything to lose sleep over, but...

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 24, 2013 2:51:50 PM PST
Techie says:
Well, thanks for reposting everything that I said including where I said that "Monsters, Inc." was an HD MA format and not a HD HR. HR is commonly dropped from the listing. Look at your "Blu-rayStats.com" website at the discs "Alien Origin", "Architect", "Stargate", "Total Recall" and you will see that he lists the codec simply as DTS-HD. From the Stats page of "Architect":

Title
Architect

Studio
Magnolia Home Entertainment

Audience Rating
R

Director
Matt Tauber

Year
2006

Language
English

Disc Language
English

Video
1080i 1.78:1

Video Encoding
MPEG2

Audio
DTS-HD 5.1

Disc
BD25 Region A, B, C

Release Date
Dec 05, 2006

List Price
$19.98

Hmmmm, he used DTS-HD 5.1. Seems that it's okay for him to list as such. The original release of "Total Recall" is a perfect example of DTS-HD HR using ES also. Review sites list it all over the place. Blu-ray Stats says it is DTS-HD 6.1, Blu-ray Dot Com list it as "DTS 5.1 ES Matrix" in the specs but in the written review...."Lionsgate brings Total Recall to Blu-ray with both a DTS-HD ES 6.1 track and a Dolby Digital 5.1 EX mix". Hmmmm, he used DTS-HD ES and dropped the HR. HiDefDigest lists it as DTS-HD High Resolution 5.1 Surround but in the review, talks about it being HR and not MA and never mentions that it is actually an ES Matrix.

As for the last sentence, the word I used was bitrate but should have been sampling frequency. But the two go hand in hand, increasing the sampling frequency, increases the bitrate. Again, my implication was for capabilities, not what was actually used. The reason why I brought up bitrate is that DTS-HD HR is limited to 6Mbps and using a matrix for the rear will give you better bitrates for the channels since it is actually encoded 5.1 discrete as opposed to 6.1 discrete.

As for my use of the word garbage, it was in reference to your statement:
"There is no such DTS HD 5.1 ES format. The only HD formats offerered by DTS are Master Audio and High Resolution." I'm sorry if the term "garbage" upsets you.

Posted on Feb 24, 2013 3:53:05 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 24, 2013 3:54:31 PM PST
EdM says:
There are several ways a DTS HD Master Audio track might appear to be lesser. According to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTS-HD_Master_Audio

"DTS-HD Master Audio is a lossless audio codec created by Digital Theater System... It is an extension of DTS which, when played back on devices which do not support the Master Audio or High Resolution extension, degrades to a "core" track which is lossy."

Possibly, on an older BD player which doesn't do DTS HD Master Audio, or on one for which the decoder is somehow damaged, Playback might retreat to a lossy core version of the audio. High Def Digest says the same thing about the latest audio as does blu-ray dot com.

However, it also says for the Japanese import of the original 2009 BD release,

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/2451/monstersinc_jp.html#Section4

"Here is where things may get tricky for a second...'Monsters, Inc.' defaults to a Japanese DTS-ES Matrix 6.1 track, and unless you're good with navigating Japanese menus, you will have a hell of a time correcting the audio so that it plays in the original mix. Take it from me, just start the film, press pause, and go through your remote control to set the audio to the track you want to hear: the DTS-HD Master Audio 6.1 mix."

Maybe something like this was involved? Sometimes the audio does not default to the best, lossless track, and you have to notice and change to get the good stuff. Or perhaps a flaw in the audio stream on a given sample of the disc. FWIW, the High Def Digest opinion on the 2/2013 version is ... "Bottom Line | Worth a Double-Dip", and for those who do 3D, the 3D version is a must own.

Sometimes, there are reasons that two different people experience different results from what seems to be the same thing.

BTW, per this from DTS, there are 5 different DTS codecs and 18 different ways of processing for differing situations:

http://www.dts.com/professionals/sound-technologies/audio-formats.aspx

Also, sometimes names for the same thing differ from one country to another, sometimes for legal reasons.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 24, 2013 7:05:40 PM PST
"Well, thanks for reposting everything that I said including where I said that "Monsters, Inc." was an HD MA format and not a HD HR."

No need to thank me, since I DID NOT repost everything that you said. Among the differences, let's be clear on the most important point; third comment in discussion you posted, I quote:

"DTS HD 5.1 is not the same as DTS HD MA. DTS HD is an "ES" surround format".

That statement is wrong (simple logic supported by YOUR web queries). Monsters, Inc has a 5.1 Master Audio ES soundtrack. Only a person with troubled mental capacity could not see the error in your statement.

Second point: DTS HD formats = Master Audio and High Resolution. ES is not a HD format. It was available on lossy formats as well, such as DVD (before Bluray technology was offered). Therefore.... Only a person with troubled mental capacity could not see the error in your statement.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 24, 2013 7:07:15 PM PST
"Look at your "Blu-rayStats.com" website at the discs "Alien Origin", "Architect", "Stargate", "Total Recall" and you will see that he lists the codec simply as DTS-HD... Hmmmm, he used DTS-HD 5.1. Seems that it's okay for him to list as such."

Not OK by any party. That's garbage on you and the websites, not me. You're all guilty. I'll write condescending letters to Bluray stats and other parties, if it makes you feel better. I'm sorry that you fell victim when you posted "DTS HD 5.1 is not the same as DTS HD MA. DTS HD is an "ES" surround format."

What little defense I can give to Blu-ray stats... If you use the filters when searching BR stats, you'll find DTS-HD HR in the drop down box and get 61 movies in the result. The list cites some movies with seven and eight channel recordings; presumbably using ES discrete rear channels. It can be GUESSED but it cannot be ASSUMED that those on the list ommitting the number of channels do not include ES encode. For example:

The movie "Bambi" can be found on the BR STATS site using the DTS-HR filter, the BR.com site listing:
Audio English: DTS-HD HR 7.1

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 24, 2013 7:07:47 PM PST
"As for my use of the word garbage, it was in reference to your statement: "There is no such DTS HD 5.1 ES format. The only HD formats offerered by DTS are Master Audio and High Resolution." I'm sorry if the term "garbage" upsets you.

I doubt that the loosely applied word "garbage" was meant to do anything, but upset. Given the snarky enunciations in the recent post, I'll take the apology as another example where you lack good character.
‹ Previous 1 Next ›
[Add comment]
Add your own message to the discussion
To insert a product link use the format: [[ASIN:ASIN product-title]] (What's this?)
Prompts for sign-in
 


Recent discussions in the Blu-ray forum

 

This discussion

Discussion in:  Blu-ray forum
Participants:  4
Total posts:  12
Initial post:  Feb 21, 2013
Latest post:  Feb 24, 2013

New! Receive e-mail when new posts are made.

Search Customer Discussions