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Connecting Blu-Ray players To Older Analog Stereo Receivers


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Showing 1-25 of 77 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Feb 13, 2013 1:27:09 AM PST
Rob1965 says:
I don't own a Blu-Ray player. Can you connect a Blu-Ray player to older stereo receivers like standard DVD players and how good do they sound as well as the CD players on them?

Posted on Feb 13, 2013 1:32:13 AM PST
MikeT says:
If you buy a Blu-ray player with the same analog outs as your DVD player, sure. Just verify this before buying. Audio quality will be the same as your DVD/CD player now (unless you want some high end player costing hundreds).

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 13, 2013 10:12:13 AM PST
EdM says:
Almost all Blu-ray disc [BD] players have analog audio outs [RCA plug type, just like stereos, DVD players, etc.]. But check the specs before purchase to be sure. You can connect a BD player to an old stereo receiver that you have, just by swapping it into the setup in place of your DVD player or CD player.

If you purchase a BD player of today's vintage, probably most of them will have the capability to play the audio with better fidelity [the Fi part of High-Fi] than what you have now. There are two major reasons for this. First, digital audio technology [getting good sound from digital] has gone up exponentially, or alternatively, a high audio quality is now attainable for less money. Secondly, BD has the ability to have very high quality lossless audio, including DTS HD Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD audio that far exceeds what is possibly with plain old CD sound.

About how good do they sound? That's a trick question. You can visualize your audio system as a chain. A profound weak link might control the ability of the whole system or the sound of the audio. For example, if you have a poorly recorded CD of a scratchy old record being played on an old cheap turntable, that CD will basically limit the ultimate sound attainable.

In my high end, stereo system, my ~15 year old CD player [$2000 for the player when new] was biting the dust, and I swapped in one of my BD players, an OPPO BDP-83 SE. The result was a significant upgrade of the sound, even when playing the same CDs, much less with high quality BD lossless audio and SACDs. OTOH, OPPO has a well deserved reputation, even in audiophile circles.

http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-83se/blu-ray-BDP-83SE-Review.aspx

" Oppo BDP-83 Special Edition Universal Player Reviewed
"By Brian Kahn, February 8, 2010

" 'The BDP-83 Special Edition provides exceptional performance through its analog audio outputs that easily compete with other players in the $5,000 and under price range.' "

So, the right question is not whether they can sound good like a CD player, but how good is your stereo system to be able to play the results for your ears. Not all BD players have OPPO's high audio quality, but a surprising number of them will likely be an upgrade from playing a CD on an old CD player, or especially a CD on most DVD players. BD players are backwards compatible with DVD players and CD players. BD players are often reviewed and reviews state the audio quality possible, so you can get an idea of what's possible. However, when you listen to high quality lossless audio of a BD concert or movie that is well done, you might just think you've gone to a whole new level of audio goodness.

For more on this, consider the Discussion "DVD vs Blu Ray" in this forum, especially in the later part, as my post here:

http://www.amazon.com/forum/blu-ray/ref=cm_cd_et_md_pl?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx2R11KXGJPWBTU&cdMsgID=Mx248DIBOXH61FE&cdMsgNo=51&cdPage=3&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=Tx230DB1OUFG3ZK#Mx248DIBOXH61FE

With a high quality BD player [there are others besides OPPO BD Players, and at various price levels], true audiophile quality sound is possible for less than has been previously possible, except for going out to hear real instruments - symphony, quartet, vocal choir, whatever - in a real live concert, of course. A well chosen BD player will not limit the audio ability of your existing sound system.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 13, 2013 11:13:46 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 13, 2013 11:16:06 AM PST
EdM says:
One more thing - for excellence in audio via the analog outputs of a BD player, you should be sure to look for a player that includes the ability to decode DTS HD Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD audio in the player itself.

Today, many AV setups have an AV receiver that accepts digital from the BD player via HDMI digital cables. Thus, lower price level BD players may not include circuitry for those lossless codecs, leaving it for an AV receiver to do. The Blu-ray spec states that those Dolby and DTS _lossless_ codecs are optional in the players, themselves, here:

http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#bluray_audio_codecs

"1.9 What audio codecs will Blu-ray support?"

Note also these sections:

"Blu-ray vs DVD

"2.1 Will Blu-ray replace DVDs?
2.2 Will Blu-ray be backwards compatible with DVD?
2.3 Why should I upgrade from DVD to Blu-ray?..."

Note that LPCM (e.g., the kind of digital audio that CDs use) is mandatory. Also, the technical ability to properly decode CD audio had improved greatly in the last 5+ years, so that even lower cost BD players will likely do a good job playing CDs.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 13, 2013 11:26:51 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 13, 2013 11:28:50 AM PST
EdM-

This does not make sense, don't you still need HDMI for Lossless audio to play? I thought the only advantage of having a player that decodes audio itself is that it can overlay other sounds along with the movie playback.

For instance, if you are watching a movie and activate the pop up menu, you will hear the sound effects associated with the pop up menu along with the movie soundtrack.

For lossless audio playback, don't you ALWAYS need HDMI? I think there may have been some early BD players that had 6 separate audio outputs, one for each channel, for lossless audio, but I do not believe any current models do that any longer.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 13, 2013 4:28:43 PM PST
Rob1965 says:
So you can connect a Blu-Ray player to receiver from the 1980's or early 1990's.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 13, 2013 4:56:32 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 13, 2013 5:01:10 PM PST
EdM says:
You need HDMI, for the HDTV to play 1080p, e.g. That's how I do it, HDMI to the HDTV. There's a clear line between HD video and, if you will, HD audio. You can still take audio out from the BD player to an older analog 5.1 or stereo, e.g., audio setup, provided the BD player has those audio outs. Most BD players have only analog L/R analog audio outs, but some still have 5.1 or even 7.1 analog audio outs. For example, the newly introduced OPPO 105:

http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-105/

"High Fidelity Audio Performance: ...

"7.1-Channel Analog Output - Individual analog 7.1-channel surround outputs are ideal for connecting to a 7.1-channel or 5.1-channel surround sound system. The BDP-105 delivers an incredible sound stage and an immersive surround experience...

"Dolby® TrueHD - Dolby TrueHD delivers lossless studio master quality audio designed specifically for high definition entertainment. The BDP-105 supports bit-stream output of Dolby TrueHD via its HDMI 1.4a output... It can also internally decode Dolby TrueHD into LPCM and output via HDMI or the 7.1ch analog audio output terminals...

"DTS-HD Master Audio™ - DTS-HD Master Audio delivers an auditory experience that matches the lifelike images of high-definition video with up to 7.1 channels that are bit-for-bit identical to the studio master. The BDP-105 supports bit-stream output of DTS-HD Master Audio. It can also internally decode DTS-HD Master Audio and output via HDMI or the 7.1ch analog audio output terminals..."

However, there are not too many players that do this in these times of cost cutting, but some do it. One has to look at the specs carefully, but if a player does this for 7.1 or 5.1 channels, or decodes lossless for stereo audio, this is a sign that the company cares about the audio quality of their analog audio out, a good thing.

If you do this, you loose out on the ability for the AV receiver [or equivalent] to do Audyssey room EQ, but you can still do EQ via a manual procedure as needed/desired.

There are other things you can do, depending on the capabilities of each piece of your gear. I seldom do pop-up menus, personally.

"For lossless audio playback, don't you ALWAYS need HDMI?"

This depends on your player, but I do use HDMI which carries digital, both Audio and Video, to the HDTV, where I have the HDTV's speakers turned off, using the analog straight from the OPPO to my audio gear. As it happens, my OPPO BDP 83-SE also has component video outs, because it was early enough, and so I could use component HD out [but that looses my HDTV's 1080p/24 capability, IIRC] with analog audio out and my player decodes lossless audio formats anyhow.

Because of the potential of BD audio discs, which can display a menu but has no actual video content, I believe that the OPPO BDP-105, which lacks component video outs, will still internally decode up to 7.1 audio lossless codecs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#Player_profiles

"BD-Audio | Profile 3.0 ...
"Profile 3.0 is a separate audio-only player profile. The first Blu-ray Disc album to be released was Divertimenti, by record label Lindberg Lyd ..."

I have that and a number of other BD audio works.

The new OPPO BDP-105 will not play HD video, however, w/o HDMI connections, AFAIK. Often, high quality analog audio gear can last for 20 years or more, and some of us have high quality analog audio gear from back in the 1990s, from LD and/or DVD high quality audio usage. The then good analog stuff is likely still fairly good, so being fed with high quality analog from a modern player like the OPPO players and others can allow that old gear to shine even better than it did before lossless audio.

But specifics are clearly dependent on the companies who designed the players. Still, the BDA profile is mandatory for all BD players, although lossless decoding in the player is not mandatory in all BD players. Also, as noted above for the OPPO BDP-105, lossless reportedly can be decoded IN THE BDP, and sent via either HDMI, or analog, that is not _requiring_ HDMI for the audio portion. I have not yet gotten the 105, but plan to ...

*Corrected - HDMI or analog only, unlike my OPPO BDP-83 SE.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 13, 2013 7:13:10 PM PST
Thank you for proving my point. Only the highest end players have the analog surround audio outputs.

Please refer to the original question, EdM- "Can you connect a Blu-Ray player to older stereo receivers like standard DVD players and how good do they sound as well as the CD players on them?"

How many standard dvd players output audio in this manner? Very few. Do you really think this gentleman, wishing to save money, will pay $500+ for a player that has connections they do not need. When you say most players have analog output, that is the old R/L audio out, not 5.1 or 7.1 outputs. Can you at least ask him if his audio equipment has surround audio inputs?

Very few BDs have lossless 2.0 tracks that may or may not output lossless audio to its analog R/L output.

Posted on Feb 13, 2013 9:23:46 PM PST
Rob1965 says:
I have a standard Panasonic DVD Player connected to the L/R audio out on a stereo system I've had for 20 years which is not a surround system, it sounds great in a bedroom with just two speakers separated far apart. If I upgraded to Blu Ray and I connected this stereo with two speakers would it sound good even though it's not in surround sound?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 13, 2013 10:18:42 PM PST
EdM says:
"Only the highest end players have the analog surround audio outputs."

That was not the OP's question. As you quoted in the next sentence, the question was 1) can you connect [NO mention of multichannel] - in short yes, and 2) how good do they sound? which depends on the whole system.

"$500+ for a player that has connections they do not need"

First, the OP made NO mention of price. Second, if you followed my link to the Blu-ray vs. DVD thread above, I pointed out how my son does it to work in his small room with an OPPO BDP-95, 2 L/R speakers @ about $100, and a Cambridge Audio integrated amp, total actually about $1.5k for an outstanding stereo system, since he already had the speakers. That is a stereo setup and it sounds wonderful, plus it gives a ball park pricing estimate of one possibility.

Beyond that, there are other BD players with analog outs, but not the cheapest players, as I said above. For example OPPO BDP-103 Universal 3D Blu-ray Disc Player SACD & DVD-Audio

http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-103/

"Output | Analog Audio: 7.1ch, 5.1ch, stereo" at $499.

Also, Denon DBP-1611UD Universal Blu-Ray/DVD/CD Player, Black

"Product Description | ... For optimum audio quality, the DBP-1611UD is equipped with the latest specification HDMI output, ... and an audiophile stereo output that features premium Burr-Brown PCM-1781 24 bit/192 kHz D/A converters. For multi-channel SACD compatibility, the DBP-1611UD provides stereo mix down along with bass management via the analog stereo outputs."

This for $293. Likewise:

Panasonic DMP-BDT500 Integrated Wi-Fi 3D Blu-ray DVD Player

"FLAC (Free Lossless Audio Codec) compatibility, and superior sound and image quality... Analog Audio 7.1 Channel Output..."

This one for $278. And there are other new players, not to mention used.

You do have to look, and it is getting harder to find cheap BD players with L/R analog audio out. But, they are there, or you can just use the stereo (front) L/R main audio outs of a 5.1 or 7.1 system. Some work better than others in this capacity, depending on if the BD player does stereo fold down.

"Very few BDs have lossless 2.0 tracks"

EVERY BD player plays CDs, which always have lossless CD audio, LPCM. Some DVDs have LPCM stereo. Some BDs and/or BD players have the ability to output decoded lossless audio in analog stereo form, or even in 5.1 or 7.1 form. This is helpful for those with excellent legacy 5.1 systems from DVD days, e.g.

Note above that I asked what the OP's stereo system was like, in reply to asking about the sound quality, and went through a weak link example. If the old stereo system had a $200, mid-fi or less receiver, then it makes little sense to spend an extra $400 on a BD player to try to save the old system, although the stereo speakers could still be used as an interim measure. You can get a modern AV receiver that is reasonably good for say $300-400, depending on sales pricing, etc. That receiver, paired with a $100 BD player, gets a whole BD starter system for ~ $500, but leaves new speakers for later.

OtOH, if the OP's original receiver is a high quality receiver like those in the next article, or similar, then a fine system [at least interim] may be had for the price of a decent BD player with analog outs. Plus, this will likely be a better sounding system than the typical mid-fi AV receiver, fed by an under $100 BD player.

http://www.bestcovery.com/best-high-end-stereo-receiver

"Best High End Stereo Receiver"

Includes the NAD C 725BEE Stereo Receiver, Onkyo TX-8555 Stereo Receiver, Outlaw Audio RR2150 Stereo Receiver, Denon DRA-697CIHD Receiver.

This is not to mention that some people have McIntosh MAC6700 Stereo Receiver, or similar, for many thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars. So, the answer really does depend on the rest of the OP's stereo audio system.

Also, this ignores that there are used BD player options that do have analog stereo outs, which might also be a suitable option, especially the ones that talk about their audio quality/excellence. With a start, one can always add a nice AV receiver at some point in the future, while starting to build one's collection of BDs, and providing a better HD experience in both audio and video in the meantime, if not the full multichannel boat.

Some or much of this, however, goes notably beyond the OP's original question.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 13, 2013 10:26:43 PM PST
EdM says:
In my post "on Feb 13, 2013 10:18:42 PM PST", I note two BD players, among others, that would do what you ask:

Denon DBP-1611UD Universal Blu-Ray/DVD/CD Player and Panasonic DMP-BDT500 Integrated Wi-Fi 3D Blu-ray DVD Player.

There's also the OPPO BDP-103, and some more, as well as used. I have a bedroom setup with a small, 32" HDTV and a stereo setup such as you mention, and it serves well for the bedroom and takes up little extra space. However, as you do not specifically identify your gear, do note the caution that there are trade-offs involved, and that the quality of electronics has improved over time. So, do consider the cost benefit aspect.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 14, 2013 8:10:50 AM PST
Techie says:
Blob,

Ignore the childish back and forth between the "regulars" (always trying to one up each other!). The simple answer to your question is, yes! The majority of Blu-ray players still have composite video out and simple stereo left/right analog outputs. There will even be a setting in the menu of the player called "downmix". What this does is combine the multichannel audio into a stereo output. This can be done from the lossless tracks, but whether the players actually utilize the lossless or the lossy track I can't say for sure. But I imagine that since you are using this as a stereo output in a bedroom setting, you are not looking for the groundshaking and clarity of the lossless and simply want to watch the movie as you are dozing off. So, enjoy!

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 14, 2013 9:22:54 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 14, 2013 9:25:11 AM PST
JVAN says:
Blob - most any has the standard L/R white and red RCA jacks, but some don't. You can go to Best Buy and just flip the floor models around and look. My friends have the exact same thing going on at their house. Their DVD player died, so they bought a Sony BDP-S390 (not 3D, but you didn't mention that as important). It even has wifi built in for streaming. It's $88 on Amazon. As a bonus, Sony's play back SACD's as well. Here's the list of it's I/O connections.

HDMI Output(s) : 1 (Rear)
Composite Video Output(s) : 1 (Rear)
Digital Audio Output(s) : 1 Coaxial (Rear)
Analog Audio 2ch Output(s) : 1 (Rear)
Ethernet Connection(s) : 1 (Rear)
USB Input(s) : 1 (Front)

Sony BDP-S390 Blu-ray Disc Player with Wi-Fi (Black)

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 14, 2013 9:39:24 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 14, 2013 9:47:01 AM PST
Techie,

Thanks for the sanity. I was not aware of that audio setting, hopefully it is on all BD players. EdM is still trying to convince us he is right, even though he misinterpreted or ignored the phrase "like standard DVD players". After both the OP and I explained what that meant he still doesn't get it.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 14, 2013 10:31:50 AM PST
EdM says:
"whether the players actually utilize the lossless or the lossy track I can't say for sure"

Depends on the player. Many lower price players lack the ability to decode DTS HD Master and Dolby TrueHD lossless. This ability is optional in the Blu-ray player spec, but usually the specs of a given player will disclose this.

"in a bedroom setting, you are not looking for the groundshaking and clarity of the lossless and simply want to watch the movie as you are dozing off"

Maybe for some people, on dozing off. In our master BR, not large, we do have a stuffed chair, and watch in a smaller setting. Yes to giving up "groundshaking" in the BR, but NO to giving up clarity and lossless audio excellence, in the smaller "venue". The audio gear there is ~ 15-20 years old [not counting the BD player], but still audiophile quality IMO.

My first audiophile quality TV sound was on an old Sony Tube set, with an external Adcom 50 W stereo amp at ~ $300, which was at the time Stereophile Class A rated. You just need to choose your gear well, listen carefully, and care about the sound. YMMV.

IMO, BD provides an approachable path towards audiophile sound for more people and at lower cost than ever before possible. So, my opinions are somewhat biased [but still what I hear]. If enough people come to experience and appreciate what is truly possible, that should enlarge the market and availability for high quality audio content, helpful to me personally! So, I am in a sense an evangelist for fine audio. At the same time, I do truly appreciate the AV excellence of high quality BD movies today.

Watching "Skyfall" the other day, few or none could have had as fine an experience in the early days of Bond movies even in theaters, or in more recent times only in better theaters, until the high quality HDTV and Audio systems possible today with BD AV systems. To crib a line from "The Girl Next Door", you just have to know if the juice is worth the squeeze. For me it is, without doubt.

Posted on Feb 14, 2013 10:58:49 AM PST
JVAN says:
Blob - Did you mean the standard White/Red stereo RCA cabling, or did you need more?

He did not specify multiple channels, only 80's-90's equipment. Although integrated amps, receivers, and preamps from that era could decode Dolby Pro Logic and PL II, the input from AV sources was in stereo and relied upon matrix decoding for multiple channels. Since having an externally decoding VHS player was extremely rare, I will assume he want's beautiful good 'ole 20-20KHz audio, back before digital encode/decode quality was ever heard of or needed to achieve what analog already did effortlessly for two channels. Besides, he's replacing an old DVD player, which had Toslink or coaxial at best, but always sported L/R analog RCA jacks.

You also don't need to spend $500-2000 to get SACD playback. Sony owns that standard, so there's no licensing fee. He's better off getting something to replace his dead DVD player now, and when he needs to replace his preamp or receiver, can get something that processes PCM with good quality. Investing in technology before the rest of your system can use it is throwing money away. Technology is always getting better and cheaper. So I say get what works now for less than $100, and in a couple of years or more when he needs to upgrade to hdmi, he'll be able to get what he needs that will be much better, with a price difference that's more than $88 lower than what he'd spend now.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 14, 2013 11:39:52 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 14, 2013 11:40:38 AM PST
Techie says:
EdM,

Your continual insistance at trying to one up people is getting ridiculous. The man simply wanted to know if he could connect a blu-ray player to a stereo input. He doesn't give a crap about whether you are an audiophile or an a-hole. He only cares about what he wants and what he is interested in. You have already stated your opinions in a post already. Arguing with people about it is infantile at best. I didn't respond to your post. I simply answered the man's question. And you don't need to preach to me about audiophile since my setups are quite high end, but I have no desire to prove my genitalia size by comparing audio equipment or anything else I own with you. I'm quite comfortable with who I am and what I know without getting into a quibble online with unknown unimportant people.

Yes, BD is glorious for those of us who appreciate the finer aspects of things, but in he end, it is still only a movie player and people have the freedom to buy and experience it however they wish. Continued proselytizing and boasting while ignoring the poster's question, only leads to turning people off to anything you have to say in your posts....past, current and future.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 14, 2013 11:49:12 AM PST
Techie says:
JVAN,

He did specify his equipment if you had only taken the time to read his post. He stated simply that he was interest in L/R stereo because his system is 20 years old and not a surround system. He didn't ask for references about upgrading his equipment, nor did he ask about SACD. If he is still using a 2 channel system, that is 20 years old, I sincerely doubt that he is interested in SACD, where the discs are more expensive and are getting harder to find due to declining interest in the format.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 14, 2013 11:56:00 AM PST
Rob1965 says:
I read that at the end of 2013 that some Blu Ray player won't have analog composite video inputs. If they stopped making the video or analog audio RCA inputs are there analog adapters to make HDMI audio video compatible with older analog receivers?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 14, 2013 11:56:54 AM PST
Blob 1965 says:
If I upgraded to Blu Ray and I connected this stereo with two speakers would it sound good even though it's not in surround sound?

My Answer: Connecting a Blu-Ray player to your stereo will most likely sound just as good as your current DVD player, perhaps even better(?).

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 14, 2013 12:03:48 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 14, 2013 12:04:42 PM PST
EdM,

Funny that you ignored an important fact when you said "Also, this ignores that there are used BD player options that do have analog stereo outs, which might also be a suitable option, especially the ones that talk about their audio quality/excellence."

New BD players can still have all the same audio outputs as before (L/R RCA, TOS-LINK. etc.), because Analog sunset refers to the VIDEO output, not the audio output. You will still find several audio outputs on many BD players. You even discussed the analog 5.1 outputs on your own Oppo, yes? The manufacturers can include whatever audio outputs they wish to market. It's just that the only sure bet now for audio output on a BD player is HDMI.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 14, 2013 12:06:36 PM PST
Techie says:
Blob,

At this point, if you are going to spend money on an adapter, then you might as well spend the money to upgrade. Buying cheap adapters is only going to cause issues further down the line. Every cheap piece of equipment you purchase is only going to add noise into the audio and video. You can buy good mid range receivers which are HDMI capable for a couple of hundred dollars now. And just because they are multi channel, doesn't mean you have to do multi channel. While the players have the ability to "downmix" the multi to 2 channel, receivers have the same capability. In the end, it seems more plausible to spend money to upgrade, rather than downgrade your experience.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 14, 2013 12:09:36 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 14, 2013 12:53:33 PM PST
JVAN says:
Whatever. He stated " Can you connect a Blu-Ray player to older stereo receivers like standard DVD players...". I was the one who brought up L/R stereo connections. Read the posts, Mr. Mediator! I wasn't responding to you, I was responding to the OP, who is concerned about AQ. He MAAAY want to get a player that can playback SACD in the future, without having to spend any extra dollars now. I don't think you're qualified to make this decision for him. Blast me for trying to help.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 14, 2013 12:10:56 PM PST
Blob,

Analog sunset does not apply to audio outputs on BD players, just HD video output cannot stay analog.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 14, 2013 12:11:51 PM PST
Blob 1965 says:
I read that at the end of 2013 that some Blu Ray player won't have analog composite video inputs. If they stopped making the video or analog audio RCA inputs are there analog adapters to make HDMI audio video compatible with older analog receivers?

I say: I did a very quick search, and think I found a conveter that would work, but it is $94. If you decide to buy a Blu-Ray player now, just make sure if has the appropriate outputs. After 2013, by the time your new player wears out, you will most likely want to upgrade your receiver.
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Discussion in:  Blu-ray forum
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Initial post:  Feb 13, 2013
Latest post:  Nov 6, 2014

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