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In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 9:14:41 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 30, 2011 9:21:57 AM PDT
L. Turner said: ""Your" "explaining" "includes" "extra" "non-Biblical" "revelation" not found in Scripture."

Jeff's reply: It has mostly included many Biblical verses, which you always seem to ignore.
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L. Turner said: "James assumes that the person is actually saved."

Jeff's reply: I'm curious how you come to that conclusion. What does `justified' mean to you? I always thought it meant that the person was in a righteous or `saved' state. That would mean that if a person is justified by good works and not `faith only', that she/he cannot be saved without doing more than just professing faith.
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L. Turner said: "Many people who have "another gospel" do many good works, or so they would like to believe them to be. How many good works does it take? If you even answer the question, it only proves that christ was not enough."

Jeff's reply: It takes doing as Christ commands. Are you saying that if I strive to do as Christ commands, that I am showing that I have no faith in Him?

Just to clarify what we believe; we believe that grace is divine assistance. That means that when Christ commands us to do something, we must choose to do it and He will help us. This still means that we cannot save ourselves; it can only be done with the assistance of Christ.

A good example of our view is the case of a bunch of people stranded in the middle of the ocean surrounded by sharks and on the verge of drowning. Christ flies by in a helicopter and throws them a lifeline. He asks them to tie the lifeline to themselves and He will pull them out of the water to save them. Tying the lifeline to themselves is a work and is a necessary step to being saved. After they are saved, they cannot claim that they saved themselves, but they can say that they wanted to be saved enough to do something about it. Those that do not grab the lifeline and tie it to themselves and drown are those that do not have sufficient faith in Jesus Christ to do as he asks.

My impression of your view of salvation is where you have the same group of people, but in this case they are all unconscious (they have no free will). Christ shows up in the helicopter and randomly picks a few people to save, but leaves the rest to drown or be eaten by sharks. I have an extremely hard time accepting this view of salvation. If I am wrong, I would like you to clarify how I have misinterpreted your views.
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L. Turner said: "I'm not impressed with the Mormons view of of Revelation 22:18-19."

Jeff's reply: That is the majority view of almost all educated Christians. You are making the mistake of learning your views from anti-Mormon's. They tend to distort Christian doctrines to make Mormonism look as bad as possible. I would suggest reading commentaries from respected Christians that are focused on understanding the truth instead of trying to tear down other religions.
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L. Turner said: "Your efforts to proselytize in this forum is not working well. Perhaps you should find a peer friend and hit the streets on your 10 speeds. There's got to be a few human slates out there that have not been swayed already by the known Word of God, the Bible. Happy trails."

Jeff's reply: I am simply defending my faith from people intent on misrepresenting or distorting our doctrines. I have no allusions of converting you to our faith.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 1:48:33 PM PDT
David Meherg says:
Created is correct. He was an arc angel. Isaiah tells us all about him. "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: " It's called pride, the same sin that caused our fall.
Mormons believe in a planet called Kolob
According to the Mormon scriptures (Doctrine and Covenants, Abraham 3) our galaxy, if not all galaxies, is posited to contain countless planets either already, or soon to be, inhabited by human-type life. The greatest of these planets is Kolob.

Kolob is said to be the greatest of the planets because it is "nearest unto the throne of God." But, it is also "the greatest of all the Kokau-beam that thou hast seen" ... "which signifies stars or all the great lights which were in the firmament of heaven." Moreover, at least two stars and possibly fifteen or more stars and planets, the Moon, the Earth, and the Sun receive their light from Kolob. Kolob also is said to be surrounded by many great stars which are near unto it (Abraham 3:2). According to this same passage (Abraham 3) the greater the planet the longer its rotational period. Kolob, the greatest, has a day equal to 1000 years.

These guys are not Christian as we baptists consider Christian. They think they are above us and that if you are not married and having passed through the rites of one of their temples then you cannot see God.
Salvation b y grace is a mockery to them and I don't care what they say, that is what they believe.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 1:55:56 PM PDT
David Meherg says:
What works did the thief have that got him to paradise? Or is that purgatory? Another scriptural place?

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 1:57:00 PM PDT
David Meherg says:
Satan was created. Jesus was not. The same was in the beginning with God. You people need to read your Bible.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 2:01:09 PM PDT
David Meherg says:
Wrong again. It was written by a treasure hunter and a schoolteacher.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 2:15:06 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 30, 2011 2:48:29 PM PDT
David Meherg said: "What works did the thief have that got him to paradise? Or is that purgatory? Another scriptural place?"

Jeff's reply: Paradise is not the Kingdom of Heaven or Eternal Life. It is the place for the righteous dead awaiting the resurrection and final judgment. There are no known scriptural requirements for going to paradise except that a person must be righteous (See Luke 16:22-23 where it is also called Abraham's Bosom). Read the Sermon on the Mount for a list of what needs to be done to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 5:19-20, Matthew 7:21). See also Matthew 25:46, Luke 10:25-28, and John 3:3-5 for other scriptural requirements for Eternal Life or entering into the Kingdom of God.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 2:45:39 PM PDT
David Meherg said: "Satan was created. Jesus was not. The same was in the beginning with God."

Jeff's reply: The sons of God were also around before the foundations of the earth were laid (the beginning). See Job 38:4-7 and Proverbs 8:22-30. I'm not sure what your definition of a `created being' or even `beginning' is, but according to the Bible, there were many who were also in the beginning with God. Satan was probably among them. Are you saying that God created Satan out of nothing? Why would He do that? Is God the cause of evil?
=========

David Meherg said: "You people need to read your Bible."

Jeff's reply: We do. I could give you several more references to support our doctrines if you would like.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 4:28:28 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 30, 2011 4:31:10 PM PDT
B. Josephson says:
David: guys are not Christian as we baptists consider Christian. They think they are above us and that if you are not married and having passed through the rites of one of their temples then you cannot see God.
Salvation b y grace is a mockery to them and I don't care what they say, that is what they believe.

Response: Actually the LDS I met consider Baptists Christians, and you do no consider them Christians.

So don't you consider yourself above the LDS?

Or do you consider them your equals?

Best Wishes,
Shaamba Kaambwaat

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 4:29:34 PM PDT
B. Josephson says:
I think you have the LDS mixed up with RCs now.

Somehow, I think you doubt they are Christians as well...

Best Wishes,
Shaamba Kaambwaat

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 4:30:41 PM PDT
B. Josephson says:
Yes, this was one explanation.

Better than the one that Turner has given, BTW.

Best Wishes,
Shaamba Kaambwaat

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 5:27:48 PM PDT
L. Turner says:
David,

It's been a while since Kolob has been mentioned. The best way to pass a counterfit bill is to make it look as much alike to the real thing as possible. The Mormons must have a lot of busy lawyers attempting to sway the less than Biblically knowing to be tempted into their web.
Thank you for entering the forum.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 5:39:28 PM PDT
L. Turner says:
Wagoner,

You just don't seem to get IT!
Jesus is Lord! He being both God and man kept the PERFECT LAW of God. We can't, we don't, we won't keep the law PERFECTLY. You might be a decent kinda guy, but your works as are everyone's works are, they are as filthy rags.
You have a different god regardless of how many ways you attempt in this forum to make the Biblical God the same as yours.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 5:48:49 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 30, 2011 5:51:22 PM PDT
L. Turner says:
Wagoner,

Your understanding of who the sons of God were does not work.
There is context here. Sons of God refers to those who were closer to knowing and obeying the will of God at that time. God did not want them mixing with those who would steer them away from Him. Instead of accepting the historical meaning of what fits the Bible, Mormons allow themselves to create fanciful doctrines to fit their other wrong doctrines. Mormonism is called a maze for all the right reasons.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 6:00:04 PM PDT
L. Turner says:
B.J.,

It's not about which of us is good in this forum, it is about what is Biblical. If your gospel is not correct through and through, it is another gospel. The jesus of the Mormons and the Jesus of the Bible only believers is not one and the same Jesus Christ.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 6:01:28 PM PDT
L. Turner says:
B.J.,

What's the RCs?

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 6:40:51 PM PDT
L. Turner said: "You just don't seem to get IT!
Jesus is Lord! He being both God and man kept the PERFECT LAW of God. We can't, we don't, we won't keep the law PERFECTLY. You might be a decent kinda guy, but your works as are everyone's works are, they are as filthy rags."

Jeff's reply: Let me see if I understand your logic. I reference the Bible where it tells us clearly what to do to obtain Eternal Life; and you tell me that I don't get it? Why did Christ tell us to keep the commandments if He didn't mean it? Are you familiar with the concept of grace? Are you aware that Christ will help us keep the commandments? What do you think the purpose of the Holy Ghost is?

Once again, our works do not save us; Christ saves us. Christ set the conditions that we need to fulfill in order to be saved. He does not randomly save some and condemn others; He saves those that do as He commands.
============

L. Turner said: "You have a different god regardless of how many ways you attempt in this forum to make the Biblical God the same as yours."

Jeff's reply: Everything I have told you about God I have supported from the Bible. You never support your views from the Bible, but use assertion. As I have explained to you before, your views are so far removed from the Bible that you would be considered a heretic by almost all Christians in the world. You keep denying that God is three persons.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 6:56:00 PM PDT
L. Turner said: "Your understanding of who the sons of God were does not work.
There is context here. Sons of God refers to those who were closer to knowing and obeying the will of God at that time. God did not want them mixing with those who would steer them away from Him."

Jeff's reply: Lets look at Job 38:4-7 and see how your interpretation fits.

"4 Where wast thou WHEN I LAID THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 WHEN the morning stars sang together, and ALL THE SONS OF GOD SHOUTED FOR JOY?"

God speaking to Job and asks where he was when he laid the foundations of the earth. I think that God is referring to the time just prior to the creation. God then states that at this time the sons of God shouted for joy. I read that to mean that all the sons of God were present at the foundation of the world.

I can't even see anything close to your interpretation in those verses. I would really like it if you could explain it to me. Evidently I am not blessed with the intellect to understand it.
=================

L. Turner said: "Instead of accepting the historical meaning of what fits the Bible, Mormons allow themselves to create fanciful doctrines to fit their other wrong doctrines. Mormonism is called a maze for all the right reasons."

Jeff's reply: Once again, you are ignoring the Bible verses I quote to you that strongly support my views. If you could explain to me why my interpretations are wrong and give me some verses to support your view, then I could perhaps have something to work with. I can also find lots of historical pre-Nicene interpretations that are much closer to mine than yours.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 6:58:42 PM PDT
David Meherg's post:
Mormons believe in a planet called Kolob
==========================
The above statement is as equally wrong as...."Earthlings believe in a planet called Sol".

Kolob is a STAR. Do we live on the planet Sol?

You are relying upon and regurgitating propaganda which is flawed to begin with.

Yours in Christ, Brother Niv

mormon.org

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 7:01:12 PM PDT
David Meherg's post:
Satan was created.
===========================
So God created a sinful being?

Yours in Christ, Brother Niv

mormon.org

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 7:06:58 PM PDT
RCs = Roman Catholics.

Yours in Christ, Brother Niv

mormon.org

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 9:46:16 PM PDT
L. Turner says:
Wagoner,

It would seem that God made known to His angels what would in time occur.
Luke 2:10-14

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 30, 2011 9:54:27 PM PDT
L. Turner says:
David,

You are failing to read Scripture within it's own context.
Satan fell from his high angelic place and persuaded a third of the angels to follow his leading. I'm sure the Mormons have created other answers for this as well.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 1, 2011 10:21:15 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 1, 2011 10:23:28 AM PDT
L. Turner said concerning NIV's point question on why would God create an evil being from nothing: "You are failing to read Scripture within it's own context.
Satan fell from his high angelic place and persuaded a third of the angels to follow his leading. I'm sure the Mormons have created other answers for this as well."

Jeff's reply: You have stated before that you do not believe in free will. Therefore, that means that you believe that God created a flawed being from nothing that He knew would become evil. I think this is a much more disturbing view than the LDS view that all beings as spirits were in the beginning with God. The fact that an eternal being with inherent free will went bad is much less troubling than a being that was created from nothing and who has no free will going bad. This means that you believe God is the source of evil.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 1, 2011 2:42:06 PM PDT
L. Turner says:
Wagoner,

I believe in free will. I believe that all of us would have failed the test in the garden as was the case with Adam and Eve.
I'm not sure why you don't see this as so. It's not that deep.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 1, 2011 3:04:57 PM PDT
L. Turner said: "I believe in free will. I believe that all of us would have failed the test in the garden as was the case with Adam and Eve.

Jeff's reply: Earlier you answered in response to my question on whether you believed in free will or predestination the following:

In reply to your post on Jun 16, 2011 8:23:03 PM PDT
L. Turner says: "Predestination is quite Biblical and fits my conversion experience."

I'm confused on whether you believe in free will or predestination. You have given me both answers. Was Satan predestined to become evil, or did he become evil of his own free will and choice?
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Discussion in:  Christian Music forum
Participants:  70
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Initial post:  Dec 27, 2010
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