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The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Truth Restored (5)

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Initial post: Dec 13, 2009 2:45:30 PM PST
Mike says:
Gaylen,
Thanks for the post. You acknowledge that there are family members of different denominations and go on to state that we need further revelation and then added some verses from a book not found in the Bible.

I was a member of a church which promoted those same ideas and relied, in part, on their own traditions rather than the Bible exclusively.

Didn't Jesus complete the work the Father gave Him?

Posted on Dec 13, 2009 7:16:07 PM PST
HarryRfromNE says:
Man, it''s almost impossible to find the groups unless it's listed by Amazon as a regular link in a list of Amazon Discussion groups! I did a search, and every time I clicked on the link given by Amazon, I was taken to a different page that was not this discussion group. I def hope Amazon gets organized better on the discussion group section of their site.
Anywho.
Take care to all (irrespective of theological beliefs, or lack thereof!).

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 13, 2009 7:58:49 PM PST
Harold Lime says:
If He did, then why have the Pauline epistles been deemed necessary?
Or perhaps they're not.

Posted on Dec 14, 2009 10:49:15 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 14, 2009 10:50:13 AM PST
Crazy Horse says:
For those of you who may be interested the Fourth Annual Neal A. Maxwell Lecture will be given by Mark H. Willes, president and CEO of Deseret Management Corporation, on Thursday, March 11, 2010, in the Assembly Hall of the Gordon B. Hinckley Alumni and Visitors Center on the BYU campus.

It begins at 7:00 pm and is open to the public.

Plenty of time to schedule it on your calendars!

Shirt Wearer

Posted on Dec 14, 2009 10:53:47 AM PST
Little G. says:
Gaylen,

Check out Romans 18:23 Isn't this what LDS did with God? Don't you all claim that God is a man? Interesting. Man is corruptible; divinity is incorruptible. Nice scripture. Littlegandy

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 14, 2009 11:26:49 AM PST
Shirt Wearer,

Are you going to start a new thread with the Title I suggested?

I was hoping you would provide some good stuff to get us started with.

Yours in Christ, Brother Niv

PS amazingly, when I went to type the 2nd line above I some how jumped out of the dialog box and the letters typed went through a whole bunch of menu choices until it logged me off my computer! What are the chances?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 14, 2009 2:36:12 PM PST
Crazy Horse says:
In reply to your post on Dec 14, 2009 11:26 AM PST
Church of Jesus Christ of LDS are Christians says:
Shirt Wearer,

Are you going to start a new thread with the Title I suggested?

I was hoping you would provide some good stuff to get us started with.

Yours in Christ, Brother Niv
============================================
Bro. Niv-I answered you off-line.

Back to grading finals and term papers...

Your pal,

Shirt Wearer

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 14, 2009 8:25:38 PM PST
LDSaint says:
Mike

You said: Didn't Jesus complete the work the Father gave Him?

Response: He did complete the work the Father gave Him to do during His life here on earth. He said it is finished. He now has other work to do part of which is being a mediator between us and the Father at the judgement:
(New Testament | 1 Timothy 2:5)

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 14, 2009 8:37:23 PM PST
LDSaint says:
LG

You said: Check out Romans 18:23 Isn't this what LDS did with God? Don't you all claim that God is a man? Interesting. Man is corruptible; divinity is incorruptible. Nice scripture.

Response: Are you sure it is Romans 18:23????

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 14, 2009 8:41:46 PM PST
Little G. says:
Romans 1:23 (King James Version)

23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Sorry, I got carried away., Amazing resemblence to the mormon God olf flesh and bones, I'd say. Corruptible man instead of incorruptible as divine. Little

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 14, 2009 9:17:26 PM PST
LDSaint says:
LG

You said: Romans 1:23 (King James Version)

23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Sorry, I got carried away., Amazing resemblence to the mormon God olf flesh and bones, I'd say. Corruptible man instead of incorruptible as divine. Little

Response: This is about idolatry. We already know that Jesus Christ has a body of flesh and bones. We also know that He is incorruptible. Sounds like the LDS Church got it right.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 15, 2009 9:26:17 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 15, 2009 9:37:17 AM PST
Crazy Horse says:
In reply to an earlier post on Dec 14, 2009 8:41 PM PST
LittleGandy says:
Romans 1:23 (King James Version)

23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Sorry, I got carried away., Amazing resemblence to the mormon God olf flesh and bones, I'd say. Corruptible man instead of incorruptible as divine. Little
=================================================
Response: LG, Gaylen is right about the verse you quote as relating to idolarty, in regards to some of your concerns from other posts I am reminded of a statement made by one of the early Church Fathers known as Origen (ca. AD 185-251):

"Now it is possible that some may dislike what we have said representing the Father as the one true God, but admitting other beings besides the true God, who have become gods by having a share of God. They may fear that the glory of Him who surpasses all creation may be lowered to the level of those other beings called gods. They may fear that the glory of Him who surpasses all creation may be lowered to the lever of those other beings called gods...

[However], as, then there are many gods, but to us there is but one God the Father, and many Lords, but to us there is one Lord, Jesus Christ (cf. 1 Cor. 8:5-6)."

LG, while it is true that some may dislike this doctrine, it is ancient, Biblical, and true. Many of the early Church Fathers have spoken directly to this doctrine and they (some not all) had studied and learned at the feet of the Apostles who had been taught by our Savior, but time does not permit me to list all of the qoutes available upon the subject.

Springing forward to the modern world, in regard to the LDS doctrine, non-LDS scholar Ernst W. Benz has observed:

"One can think what one wants of this doctrine of progressive deification, but one thing is certain: with this anthropology Joseph Smith is closer to the view of man held by the ancient Church than the precursors of the Augustinian doctrine of original sin."

I should like to share more on this topic with you but I am currently swamped with work.

Have a blessed day,

Shirt Wearer

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 15, 2009 10:03:28 AM PST
Little G. says:
Shirt,

Here's a point you are missing. God Himself, in this passage is talking about man aka being in the image of a man, to be corruptible flesh. Okay, you should understand that. He is saying that He has been made into an image of man which is the image of flesh which is corruptible - meaning it CANNOT live forever, but it will eventually die. Are you with me? Okay. Then INCORRUPTIBLE means he never can die, he goes from eternity to eternity forever, he is divine. Changing Him to a man changes His existance. He is NOT a man He is God, incorruptible, who lives for ever. If you could understand this, you could go along way in progressing towards the truth. Littlegandy ps He has no power to save, or do anything if he is a man, now does he? How could he if He is flesh?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 15, 2009 10:13:20 AM PST
Yes, The Sacrafice for our sins was accomplished in the Garden and at the cross. However, every knee has not bown and every tongue has not confessed that Jesus is the Christ. No, His work won't be done for many many years after we are all dead and gone from this earth. Upon completion of His work, the marks of the nails will be removed from His resurrected Body (as the scriptures say).

Also, our work will not be done for years and years after we have passed from this life to the next. That's all I got to say about that!

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 15, 2009 11:28:11 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 15, 2009 11:39:10 AM PST
Crazy Horse says:
In reply to your post on Dec 15, 2009 10:03 AM PST
LittleGandy says:
Shirt,

Here's a point you are missing. God Himself, in this passage is talking about man aka being in the image of a man, to be corruptible flesh.

<SW: Ok.>

Okay, you should understand that.

<SW: I think so.>

He is saying that He has been made into an image of man which is the image of flesh which is corruptible - meaning it CANNOT live forever, but it will eventually die. Are you with me?

<SW: Are you saying, based on your interpretation, that when MAN makes a graven image he is making it into an image of flesh which is corruptible? If so, I do not see the problem as we are commanded to not worship graven images; whether corruptible man, whether birds, whether fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. No problem.>

Okay. Then INCORRUPTIBLE means he never can die, he goes from eternity to eternity forever, he is divine.

<SW: Do you understand the meaning of "from eternity to eternity forever"? It has far reaching meanings with complexities and depth. Yes, God is divine.>

Changing Him to a man changes His existance. He is NOT a man He is God, incorruptible, who lives for ever.

<SW: I think this is were you stumble. No where does LDS doctrine change God into man. God is God--today and forever! Of this you may rest assured. Of course, God is incorruptible and nothing with sin can live in His presence. The question that you have failed to address, is whether or not MAN (for emphasis) may progress to inherit the attributes of God? This doctrine in ancient Israel and in New Testament times was referred to as Theosis or Deification. It was taught anciently and is now restored as a true doctrine of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You should know that Latter-day Saints (LDS) are not the only ones in Christendom who believe in this doctrine as millions of Eastern Orthodox Christians do in some fashion.>

If you could understand this, you could go along way in progressing towards the truth.

<SW: I appreciate your perspective, but it fails to persuade me based on my own studies and through the testifying of the Holy Spirit which confirms all truth--not man or woman!>

Littlegandy ps He has no power to save, or do anything if he is a man, now does he? How could he if He is flesh?

<SW: Simply put--God is not now a man and His body is glorified and perfected--so, yes, He has the power to save, judge, and redeem. He is our Heavenly Father who loves and cares for His children more then we can comprehend.>

In His service,

Shirt Wearer

PS- Here is another quote from Origen:

"And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with God, and to attract to Himself divinity, is a being of more EXALTED (my italics) rank than the other gods beside Him, of whom God is the God, as it is written, "The God of gods, the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth." It was by the offices of the first-born that they became gods, for He drew from God in generous measure that they should be made gods, and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty."

He continues,

"The true God, then, is "The God," and those who are formed after Him are gods, images, as it were, of Him the prototype. The Father, then, is proclaimed as the one true God; but besides the true God are many who become gods by participating in God."

Origen also defined what it means to "participate" in something:

"Every one who participates in anything, is unquestionably of one essence and nature with him who is partaker of the same thing."

Fascinating!

For further reading, see Origin, De Principiis, 4:1:36 in Ante-Nicene Fathers 4:381.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 15, 2009 3:17:53 PM PST
Little G. says:
Gaylen,

This passage is talking about God the Father. Why do you say its talking about Jesus Christ? Because you can say he was once a man like you?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 15, 2009 4:30:17 PM PST
Little G. says:
Response: This is about idolatry. We already know that Jesus Christ has a body of flesh and bones. We also know that He is incorruptible. Sounds like the LDS Church got it right.
============================================
Gaylen,
From verse 1 all the way through, Paul is talking about the wrath of God the Father. Has nothing to do with God the son who is Jesus. All of chapter 1 is ab out God the Father.

I really suggest you start to think about what we say here. You do a lot of assuming, instead of understanding truth. What is truth? The truth here is it is God the Father whose image was changed from a divine incorruptible God to that of a corruptible man. God the Father Gaylen. Don't read Jesus Christ into it when it's not about Him.

Jesus Christ came as a man to reconcile us back to God the Father. The reasosn he cam is because "the wrath of God (the father) is being pourerevealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness." Romans 1:18 Subsequent, Paul lists all the reasons why God is so ticked off. Making Him out to be a man is one of the reasons. Little

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 15, 2009 4:43:30 PM PST
LDSaint says:
LG

You said: This passage is talking about God the Father. Why do you say its talking about Jesus Christ? Because you can say he was once a man like you?

Response: Romans 1:23 (King James Version)

23And "changed the ""glory"" of the uncorruptible God into an ""image"" made like to corruptible man", and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Notice that this scripture is about the glory of God. It is also about Idolitry (making images or gods to worship). However, Jesus Christ was an incorruptible man. He was in the image of God. He was worshiped both in the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 15, 2009 4:47:08 PM PST
Little G. says:
the wrath of God (the father) is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness"

This is what you are doing, Gaylen. Suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. Ask me what that means if you don't understand. Little

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 15, 2009 5:14:33 PM PST
Little G. says:
Jesus Christ was an incorruptible man. He was in the image of God. He was worshiped both in the Bible and the Book of Mormon.
========================================
Incorruptible means never to die. Before Jesus came to earth, He wasz deity, He was God the Son. He stripped himself of all deity to become the Christ - to be our savior - to save us from our sins. While on earth, he was corruptible, he died. We know that he died, so that proves he was not incorruptive, but was corruptible. That's what makes him corruptible. Now, Jesus Christ is a resurrected man, who has died and will never die again because n ow he is incorruptible. Only after he was resurrected did he become incorruptible. But prior to coming to earth, He was deity, full blown God - He became corruptible so save us. He has risen ! No longer is He dead but alive! He lives! And hecause of Him, we too shall be incorruptible and live forever. Those of us who are In Christ. Because we died with Him, we shall reign with Him. Littlegandy

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 15, 2009 6:09:09 PM PST
Crazy Horse says:
LG: Says, "Incorruptible means never to die."
=====================================================================================
Response: LG, Webster's dictionary says the following:

Main Entry: in·cor·rupt·ible
Pronunciation: \in-k-rp-t-bl\
Function: adjective
Date: 14th century

: incapable of corruption: as a : not subject to decay or dissolution b : incapable of being bribed or morally corrupted

- in·cor·rupt·ibil·i·ty \-rp-t-bi-l-t\ noun

- incorruptible noun

- in·cor·rupt·ibly \-rp-t-bl\ adverb

LG, I like the second usage that can be used, "not subject to decay or dissolution." I promise you in the name of Jesus Christ that our Heavenly Father is not subject to decay or dissolution, however idols or graven images are. Of course, you know this, so where is the beef?

It almost seems like you are barking at something you cannot see, but you are certain it is there! Reside in Christ and He will soothe your angst. I promise you!

Blessings,

Shirt Wearer

Shirt Wearer

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 15, 2009 7:08:41 PM PST
Little G. says:
." I promise you in the name of Jesus Christ that our Heavenly Father is not subject to decay or dissolution, however idols or graven images are. Of course, you know this, so where is the beef?
=============================================
He is if he's a man Shirt. Doesn't the LDS church claim he is a man? If he is a man, then he is subject to death, just like we are. If he is flesh and bones. Now tell me you don't believe that God the Father is flesh and bones. It's written throughout your doctrine.

Here's something else for your review:

Joseph Smith Jr., the first prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints preached that God was an exalted man. Milton Hunter, member of the 1st Council of the Seventy, echoed Smith's claims; in his book Gospel Through the Ages, pg. 114 it states: "...if we accept the great law of eternal progression, we must accept the fact that there was a time when Deity was much less powerful than He is today. Then how did He become glorified and exalted and attain His present status of Godhead?....God undoubtedly took advantage of every opportunity to learn the laws of truth and as He became acquainted with each new verity He righteously obeyed it". Milton continued on with his theory by adding: "As He gained more knowledge through persistent effort and continuous industry, as well as through absolute obedience, His understanding of the universal laws continued to become more complete. Thus He grew in experience and continued to grow until He attained the status of Godhood."

Oscar McConkie Jr. wrote; "Our understanding is enlarged by considering the particular and peculiar functions and contributions of each of the three Deities". God and Man, pg. 16. He then goes on to say that "One peculiar contribution of the Father, then, was to beget us in the spirit before we "were naturally upon the face of the earth."

It is impossible for us who truly know God to be quiet when reading statements as blasphemous as these! I cannot imagine what our Holy God must think when man has thought these things, let alone teach it to others. Only in Mormonism and other `isms' is God brought down to man's level and man in turn is exalted to godhood. The Bible emphatically states that God is not man.

Hosea 11:9 says; "...For I am God and not man, the Holy One in the midst of thee..." Then Malachai 3:6 says; "For I am the LORD, I change not..."

It is quite clear from these two verses alone what truth is. Don't be fooled my friends, read the Bible in context to find the truth for yourself. I've been studying Christianity now for 11 years and spent another 30 years in the church. When I think of what they (the LDS church) has said about God it makes my heart ache that they would bring such an awesome God down to their level. It's obvious that Smith couldn't accept the fact that he was a mere man, therefore you have the Mormon church of today. The travesty lies not in just what one man's evil thoughts were, but that he is responsible for leading another 11 million down to the gates of hell!

Please, if you're a Mormon looking for the truth, I implore you to search the Word of God for yourself. Don't just take my word for it, but honestly look to the Bible and to God, read about Him and examine fully what He has to say about Himself. There's not one scripture that contradicts itself in the entire Bible. However, if you look in the Book of Mormon and other Mormon writings you can see the following:

Mormon 8:18; "For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity".

D&C 130:22; "The Father has a body of flesh, and bones as tangible as man's" Articles of Faith: "We believe in a God who is Himself progressive...whose perfection consists in eternal advancement..."

D&C 20:17; "By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them".

Gospel Through the Ages, pg. 104; "President Joseph F. Smith declared that "God himself is an exalted man, perfected, enthroned and supreme". Elder Orson Hyde, a member of the Quorom of the Twelve said: "Remember that God our Heavenly Father was perhaps once a child, and mortal like we are, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement..."

Now as we read just two paragraphs down pay careful attention to what the first prophet said about knowing God:

"It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we ma converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us, yea, that God Himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did".

There is chaos in the masses within the Mormon hierarchy! One prophet says that it is vital to know who God is and another leader says that `perhaps' he was once a child. Whom should you trust?

These are just a few examples of the inconsistencies within the teachings of the church. If you're a Mormon and think you're the only one that always seems confused, think again my friend! It is so confusing to be a Mormon and still realize that you're an intelligent human being.

I encourage every Mormon I come into contact with to do a word study. Begin with the word eternal. Simply go to a dictionary of your choice to find out the meaning. God can't be eternal if he's always progressing. The law of eternal progression is an oxymoron in the sense they have used it.

Think about this...if we are all working to become a god, then why is it that we need to be sealed in the temple for all time and eternity? If we are going to reside on our own planet, become a god ourselves, have our own `people', then what's the deal with `families are forever'?

Little.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 15, 2009 7:47:25 PM PST
LDSaint says:
LG

You said: This is what you are doing, Gaylen. Suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. Ask me what that means if you don't understand.

Response: I am not suppressing any truth in unrighteousness.

You said: Incorruptible means never to die. Before Jesus came to earth, He wasz deity, He was God the Son. He stripped himself of all deity to become the Christ - to be our savior - to save us from our sins. While on earth, he was corruptible, he died. We know that he died, so that proves he was not incorruptive, but was corruptible. That's what makes him corruptible. Now, Jesus Christ is a resurrected man, who has died and will never die again because n ow he is incorruptible. Only after he was resurrected did he become incorruptible. But prior to coming to earth, He was deity, full blown God - He became corruptible so save us. He has risen ! No longer is He dead but alive! He lives! And because of Him, we too shall be incorruptible and live forever. Those of us who are In Christ. Because we died with Him, we shall reign with Him.

Response: I should have been more clear. Although He was subject to sin or immoral behavior while He was here as a man, He was incorruptible because He overcame the world. However, your definition "Incorruptible means never to die" is incorrect. He did die for us and took upon Himself the sins of all those who repent. He also made it possible for all of us to live forever. All who are worthy will reign with Him.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 15, 2009 8:01:25 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 15, 2009 8:13:44 PM PST
R. Charter says:
LG says

"These are just a few examples of the inconsistencies within the teachings of the church. If you're a Mormon and think you're the only one that always seems confused, think again my friend! It is so confusing to be a Mormon and still realize that you're an intelligent human being."

Great post LG. Just reading the references that you posted I can see several contradictions in LDS Doctrine concerning the Eternal Person of God. In one place God is eternally the same, and in other places it says without a shadow of misunderstanding that God was once as man is, which I also feel is close to blasphemy. God is the same, eternal to eternal, and so is Jesus Christ, his Son. The definition of a false prophet is one who makes a false prophecy, and when JS made the statement that God is only an exalted man he showed himself to be a false prophet. And anyone who believes that statement has not placed there faith in the Word of God (the Bible) but in a blasphemous "church" that is not in line with what the Bible confirms about
God. That He is God, from everlasting to everlasting. He is the only God, there being no other God besides him. I have seen posts by LDS members that appear to agree with that, but then apparently believe what JS says, and that is contradictory. Let's see, I have seen it posted that Jesus is a God, Not the Son of God, not God the Son, but that he became a God in some earlier existance before his birth on earth. I can go back and find that reference if needed. The question I have is this: Who exalted God from a man to God? Is there a God above God the Father? Because if God is an exalted man, does that not indicate that He is a spirit child of another "Exalted man who became God, andf sent Him down to another world so he could show Himself worthy to be exalted? If the LDS members would just look at how ridiculous this teaching is they would leave that Church in droves. But it is hard for a person to look beyond the "promise" of becoming a God, with a heavenly eternal wife so they can beget billions of spirit children of their own.
The doctrine of pre-mortal spirit life is just as ridicilous. Why would an ever loving God, who with his spirit wife had begat billions of spirit children, create an earth so He could eject them down to earth where the majority would be destroyed? That is not a very loving God is that?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 15, 2009 8:06:17 PM PST
Little G. says:
Response: I should have been more clear. Although He was subject to sin or immoral behavior while He was here as a man, He was incorruptible because He overcame the world. However, your definition "Incorruptible means never to die" is incorrect. He did die for us and took upon Himself the sins of all those who repent. He also made it possible for all of us to live forever. All who are worthy will reign with Him.
==========================================
He died as corruptible man. He rose as incorruptible - a resurrected human - Now, he is a resurrected incorruptible "human" (the first of many I might add) as we will follow when we die and are resurrected.
He is Our One High Priest in Heaven. Acts 1:9 "And after He had said t hese things, he was lifted up w hile theye were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was departing, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them: And they also said "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky>? This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven." Amen Glory to God, praise His name, He's coming back for his church. Praise God!
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