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BONHOEFFER the most important Christian of the past 100 yrs, predicted and warned about Hitler and liberal theologians" as being part of the cause


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Initial post: Nov 14, 2012 8:09:14 AM PST
Bonhoeffer, Pastor Martyr prophet spy
explains how Hitler was able to take over a so called Christian country, Germany, how he warned the US and was ignored. One of the greatest Christian, humble, intellectual and loving persons in the past 100 yrs. A must read for any Christian. Is this what is happening in Europe and the US today? read and decide for yourself

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 14, 2012 8:45:56 AM PST
Brian Curtis says:
Too bad for Bonhoeffer's thesis that Hitler hated liberals.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 14, 2012 10:34:02 AM PST
Rev. Otter says:
<<read and decide for yourself>>

i'm betting you didn't, and are repeating someone else's words. :)

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 14, 2012 1:21:31 PM PST
JJB says:
"the most important christian of the past 100 years. "

how do these loons come up with this stuff? no matter how much i try i simply cannot get it done.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 14, 2012 2:06:09 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 14, 2012 2:07:16 PM PST
Kevin Bold says:
AN important Christian, yes; THE MOST important Christian, no.

I don't see how we could determine that individual, or why we should even try. We should work to be "important" Christians ourselves.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 14, 2012 2:27:02 PM PST
I'm a Bonhoeffer fan. Especially his work , "Ethics." Still, even though I'm not Reformed, my vote for most important theologian in the last 100 years is Karl Barth.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 14, 2012 2:57:16 PM PST
Jeff Marzano says:
Judy Deatherage says:

[Bonhoeffer, Pastor Martyr prophet spy]

A guy I worked with told me to watch the following DVD that he lent to me:

Bonhoeffer: Agent of Grace

At least I'm pretty sure that's the movie. That was a few years ago.

As I recall Bonhoeffer chose to go back into Nazi occupied territory to help the people in his church even though he was not in a Nazi zone when he made that decision. The Nazis picked him up and he was executed by hanging.

Wasn't he trying to help get people out of the Nazi areas ?

Those were the main points I took from the movie as I recall it now. I must have missed all those other ideas unless the movie didn't get into Bonny at that level of detail.

What exactly is a liberal theologian ?

For me the most important Christian of the last 100 years would be Edgar Cayce. Cayce was actually a Christian mystic. He was I believe the reincarnation of the great Osiris, the Egyptian Lord Of The Underworld.

Jeff Marzano

There Is a River

The Essential Edgar Cayce

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 14, 2012 3:05:45 PM PST
Astrocat says:
Judy, since Hitler was hardly a "liberal", your OP is, right off the bat, right off the mark. Hitler and his ilk were fascists. That's about as far from "liberal" as you can get.

Posted on Nov 14, 2012 3:07:08 PM PST
Linguistic sleight of hand going on here. "Liberal Christianity" has nothing to do with political Liberalism. I, for example, am a conservative Christian as to theology, a liberal Democrat as to politics.

Bonhoeffer was, in fact, a political liberal, insofar as he wound up being hanged at Dachau for plotting to assassinate Hitler.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 14, 2012 3:08:19 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 14, 2012 3:10:36 PM PST
Cayce wasn't a Christian at all, though he appropriated some Christian terminology. Christianity doesn't accept reincarnation, but believes "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27). Christians also don't believe in Osiris.

Posted on Nov 14, 2012 3:10:08 PM PST
"Liberal Christianity" is a 19th century theology saying Christianity needs to strip away its "accretions of mythology" and just keep a few core beliefs, the identity of those beliefs varying from author to author. It never caught on with any large group, though intellectuals in some countries continue to play with it. Examples would be Bishop Spong or the Jesus Seminar. While I, personally, detest both, I don't see either becoming involved with fascism. At least I hope not.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 14, 2012 3:10:42 PM PST
Jeff Marzano says:
Barton Paul Levenson says:

[Cayce wasn't a Christian at all, though he appropriate some Christian terminology.]

Well that depends on what your definition is for the word 'Christian'.

What you're saying is if someone believes in reincarnation and the gods of mythology they can't be a Christian.

Jeff Marzano

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 14, 2012 3:10:50 PM PST
The Weasel says:
Barton Paul Levenson says:
Linguistic sleight of hand going on here. "Liberal Christianity" has nothing to do with political Liberalism. I, for example, am a conservative Christian as to theology, a liberal Democrat as to politics.
***
Very succinct.

Posted on Nov 14, 2012 3:11:03 PM PST
Thanks.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 14, 2012 3:11:16 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 14, 2012 3:12:04 PM PST
Astrocat says:
But there are many Biblical references to what some of us think of as reincarnation, so I've never understood how Christians can claim to take the Bible so literally and still try to sidestep these very convincing remarks:

1) Matthew 11,14 and 17,12-13, concerning the identity of John the Baptist;
2) John 9,2, "Who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?";
3) John 3,3, "No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again";
4) James 3,6, "the wheel of nature";
5) Galatians 6,7, "A man reaps what he sows";
6) Matthew 26,52, "all who draw the sword will die by the sword";
7) Revelation 13,10, "If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed."

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 14, 2012 3:11:45 PM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Nov 14, 2012 3:12:22 PM PST
JM: What you're saying is if someone believes in reincarnation and the gods of mythology they can't be a Christian.

BPL: That's exactly what I'm saying. Christianity is a set of beliefs about God and the supernatural, and beliefs which directly conflict with it are, by definition, not Christian. "Christian" isn't a vague term of approbation, as in the 19th century. It refers to a particular religion.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 14, 2012 3:15:53 PM PST
The Weasel says:
BPL,

In your personal view are all world religions equally valid? Are they separate in nature or are they different facets of the same essence? What about religions without specific deities? What is the ultimate end point of an atheist? Would an atheist be subject to a religions judgement? Which religion?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 14, 2012 3:16:59 PM PST
ND: Been reading Ruth Montgomery?

John couldn't be Elijah reincarnated because, for one thing, Elijah never died! Read the book. For Elijah to come again means someone held the same prophetic office. The Jews didn't believe in reincarnation, either, and still don't. Also, "born again" in John 3:3 is literally "gennaythay anohthen," Greek for "born from above." It refers to repenting and believing (see, e.g., Luke 13:3-5 and John 1:12).

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 14, 2012 3:17:07 PM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Nov 14, 2012 3:19:25 PM PST
Weasel,

No, I don't think they're all equally valid, any more than all scientific theories are equally valid. I think Christianity is the most accurate, which is why I'm a Christian. I don't, however, think Christianity is 100% right and all other religions are 100% wrong. Judaism is very close, Islam a bit less, etc., all the way to, I guess, Satanism at the other extreme. An atheist would be subject to the same judgment as anyone else--if he (or she) chooses self over God, he/she will be damned, if he/she chooses God over self, he/she will be saved. BTW, it may not be a conscious choice. Matthew 25 implies a lot of people will be surprised.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 14, 2012 3:20:13 PM PST
Astrocat says:
Barton, I read Ruth Montgomery many years ago and rejected her concepts about walk-ins and her personal guides and teachers. Your response sounds like an echo of other responses, so it must be written somewhere in some pamphlet about how to refute the "false" concept of reincarnation.

And yes, some Jews did, indeed, believe in reincarnation:

Reincarnation, gilgul in Hebrew, is not explicitly mentioned in the Torah, though some interpret traditional Jewish practices to refer to reincarnation. Maimonides has written about the allusion of biblical verses to its occurrence. For example, Daniel 12:13 states, "now go your way to the end and rest, and you shall arise to your destiny at the end of days." A second example can be found in the concept of yibum, when a married man dies childless, tradition holds that his spouse should marry the man's brother and their first-born should receive the dead father's name.

The purpose of reincarnation is seen as a chance for a soul to achieve a goal not achieved in a previous life and as a chance to reward man for fulfilling the desires of his Creator. Reincarnation has also been viewed as punishment for a sinner's previous deeds. For example, a rich man who abused his power may come back as poor.

Rabbi Haim Vital, a student of the Ar'I, has compiled a list of those reincarnated in Jewish history. There is a cycle of reincarnations beginning with Dinah and Shechem. Dina, the daughter of Jacob was raped by Shechem. Shechem did not take responsibility for his actions and blamed them on his upbringing and the fact that Dinah was a noble women. So the role were reversed when Shechem was reincarnated as Zimri, an Israelite general, and Dina as Cuzbi, a Midianite women. Zimri was found consorting with Cuzbi and both were killed by the zealot, Pinhas. Thus when Shechem/Zimri was a noble man and of good birth, he could no longer blame outside sources for his own faults and was punished accordingly. The story continues when Pinhas was reincarnated as Rabbi Akiva and Cuzbi, as the wife of the Roman general Turnus Rufus. She converted to Judaism and helped establish the yeshiva of Rabbi Akiva. By promoting Jewish learning in her next life, she atoned for his sins with Zimri. Thus perhaps ending that cycle of gilgul.

A midrash says that every Jew to ever live, and who ever will live, stood at Mount Sinai when the Jews received the Covenant from God. Reincarnation may help explain how this midrash could be true.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 14, 2012 3:20:29 PM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Nov 14, 2012 3:43:01 PM PST
The Weasel says:
Barton Paul Levenson says:
Weasel,

No, I don't think they're all equally valid, any more than all scientific theories are equally valid. I think Christianity is the most accurate, which is why I'm a Christian. I don't, however, think Christianity is 100% right and all other religions are 100% wrong. Judaism is very close, Islam a bit less, etc., all the way to, I guess, Satanism at the other extreme. An atheist would be subject to the same judgment as anyone else--if he (or she) chooses self over God, he/she will be damned, if he/she chooses God over self, he/she will be saved. BTW, it may not be a conscious choice. Matthew 25 implies a lot of people will be surprised.
***
This is where I intellectually cannot accept Christianity. To me, good works on Earth should be the ultimate measure of person. If there is a God and he is omnipotent than he can value the choices made by all without regard to religion. Too much of Religion seems like a lottery - where you were born, what religion your parents had, etc. Plus some religions are so recent it strains credulity (Ie: Mormonism upstate New York in the 1820s).

That's a philosophical discussion I'd like to have with you at a later date if you're willing.

Posted on Nov 14, 2012 4:50:56 PM PST
JJB says:
see who Jesus said was the most important.
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  21
Total posts:  99
Initial post:  Nov 14, 2012
Latest post:  Nov 19, 2012

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