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A discussion of the mysteries of the Hypostatic Union


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Initial post: Dec 19, 2012 8:07:00 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 19, 2012 8:07:33 AM PST
A Customer says:
According to Christian theology the second person Holy Trinity took to himself a human nature when he was born into the world as Jesus Christ. And according to the theology of the Hypostatic Union, in this unique instance we had one person with two natures, one divine and one human. That person could operate within his divine nature and do all that goes with that nature, and he could operate within his human nature and do all that goes with that. Thus he could operate in the divine nature, with it's omniscient intellect, or operate within his human nature, with a finite intellect that adds knowledge through experiential learning, for example when he was a baby, he really had to learn to speak, just like anyone else operating within a human nature.

What must that have been like? Could he have "cheated" and called upon his divine intellect if he wanted to?

Just trying to get something interesting going

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 11:29:58 AM PST
mrs exp says:
Macheath,
I have wondered about this many times. He could and did use his godly powers but never it would seem to ease his own life. He hungered and was tired. And I'm sure it was disheartened when his own people did not acknowledge him.

I don't see why he couldn't have used his powers and come down from the cross but he couldn't if he wanted to finish his task. It truly was for us that he suffered.
exp

Posted on Dec 19, 2012 4:41:21 PM PST
Rubedo says:
It would seem, to start with, that the Divine nature is infinite. Maybe human nature is a subset within divine nature. So back when they were arguing "Is he divine or is he human" the real answer was not either/or but/both and. Maybe that was his message to us. I wonder to what extent we do or shall share in his divine nature? We must have a share already if in communion with him.

We tend to view mostly the downside of human nature, the sin, the weakness and the ignorance. Are they really necessary? Purification, illumination, Divinization... as St Athanasius said, "The Son of God became man so that we might become God.

How close to the Divinity of Jesus can we approach in this life?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 5:23:18 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 19, 2012 5:24:37 PM PST
A Customer says:
Well, when you are in a state of Sanctifying Grace, the Christ-life is living within your soul. Of course that is only the first step in the path towards Christian perfection. The active prayer life, the ascetical active purifications, and then the mystical state of passive purifications will increase that divine life within the soul until that soul is in complete union with the will of God, a state of perfect charity, and the divine life at it's fullest.

Posted on Dec 19, 2012 5:58:35 PM PST
Rubedo says:
Yes, as Jesus was from the get go, for us it is our great aspiration.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 6:47:43 PM PST
A Customer says:
Btw, that "Purification, illumination, Divinization", I had never heard it expessed that way, though I googled it and some use it. The more "standard" phraseology of spiritual theology is The Purgative Way, Illuminative Way, and Unitive Way.

Posted on Dec 19, 2012 6:57:49 PM PST
Rubedo says:
That is actually what I was trying to remember.

Posted on Dec 20, 2012 5:03:06 AM PST
A Customer says:
For example, when Jesus knew that Judus was going to betray him, did he know this through his divine nature's intellect, or was it through an infused knowledge that was given to his human nature's intellect?

Posted on Dec 20, 2012 7:14:37 AM PST
Rubedo says:
Or was it common sense?

Have you seen the movie, and of course I forget its name, where the guy takes a drug and becomes super smart. With expanded awareness and the ability to make logical connections and assess probabilities he seems pscyhic.

Maybe there is not a sharp demarcation of the two natures. Maybe it is human nature progressing through degrees of purification. Jesus showed us who we can become, who we truly are.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 20, 2012 7:35:38 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 20, 2012 7:38:00 AM PST
A Customer says:
I don't think I'd agree that Jesus was showing us we could become super smart with special abilities. The goal, as I understand it, of transformation as the soul increases in it's Christ-life in simply union with God, the Will because united with the Will of God, and the soul is in a state of bliss that can not be surpassed in this life, and is only greater under the beatific vision in heaven.

Posted on Dec 20, 2012 8:39:49 AM PST
Rubedo says:
"Super smart", I see what you mean, especially when some very simple people can be very wise. And alignment of our will with God's will may have nothing to do with our intellectual capacities.

I think it goes back to how little we know about human nature, what is its full capability. Some great saints were not all that intelligent and yet had a charism of intuition because of their sanctity. Or certain things were simply revealed by God to them.

In answer to your question, "Could he have "cheated" and called upon his divine intellect if he wanted to?" I think the temptations were there in the desert as well as on going.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 20, 2012 2:33:38 PM PST
Jeff Marzano says:
Macheath says:

[What must that have been like ?]

There's the incident in the bible where Christ got lost and was found three days later teaching the Rabbis in the temple. This is indicating that He had some sort of intuitive knowledge about the scriptures beyond what He would have been taught by that age probably.

It is my belief that Christ traveled to Egypt and India during the so called missing years between the ages of 12 and 30 which weren't captured in the bible. During that time He studied with various priests and I believe experienced the mysterious Egyptian initiation rites.

The initiation process was designed to allow people to reach high levels of spiritual enlightenment. Some of the things the initiates learned about were magic, alchemy, astronomy and astrology, sacred geometry, and the mysteries of the human body and the human spirit.

Obviously with the Lord this was a very unusual situation. But still the Egyptian priests may have been helping Him to prepare psychologically for His terrible fate.

Edgar Cayce states that at some point during His initiation experiences Christ broke the lid of the massive granite sarcophagus inside the Great Pyramid to symbolize His victory over death. And in fact when people broke into the pyramid in much later times they found the lid of the coffer cracked as it still is today.

Cayce seemed to imply that the Egyptian god Thoth was Christ in another form. Thoth was the architect of the Great Pyramid and the great teacher of mathematics and the occult sciences.

The person we read about in the bible had reached a very high level of spiritual enlightenment when He appeared on the scene at the age of 30. He was able to explain great truths in a way that simple people can understand. This is what for me makes Christ the greatest philosopher of all time. This is a skill that great teachers have.

I guess it could be possible that He reached a level of enlightenment in the Egyptian priesthood that very few others every had. Then again who knows what the Egyptian priests of old were able to do. There are many strange legends about this.

I also believe that the Christ spirit has appeared as other people in other incarnations. Some of these such as Adam, Melchizedek, and Thoth were perhaps not human as we understand that term today.

Others were very human sounding however such as Joseph who was sold as a slave by his greedy, envious brothers and the violent and treacherous Joshua.

Joshua was a vicious killer. When Joshua and the boys came to town they would massacre everyone and then torch the entire city. Joshua left the king of Bethel hanging from a tree for quite awhile.

According to the TV show Battles BC when Joshua died nobody came to his funeral. Apparently he had fallen out of favor with the Hebrews although I don't know why. Maybe the bible indicates this.

Could this have been a foreshadowing of the great philosophical rift that would open up between Judaism and Christianity ? Did both sides somehow know what was going to happen even then ?

Edgar Cayce states that Joshua was up on the mountain with Moses when they were in God's presence. No other living thing could exist at that particular location and point in time when those events were transpiring.

I could be mistaken but I think Moses was terrified at times during those experiences. He may have wanted Joshua there with him.

Jeff Marzano

Posted on Dec 20, 2012 2:36:45 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 20, 2012 2:37:56 PM PST
A Customer says:
So far 6 no votes on the O.P.

Got to love those petty Pavlovian no voting atheists and their clicking fingers :)

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 20, 2012 2:40:34 PM PST
Jeff Marzano says:
Macheath says:

[Got to love those petty Pavlovian atheists and their clicking fingers :)]

Yes you're right. Your original message is definitely relevant for a religious discussion.

Anyway just because they do that it doesn't affect your message other than people have to say if they want to read it.

Still I agree with you. These forums have been overrun by the atheist cockroaches.

I don't usually give those yes or no votes so I can't help.

Jeff Marzano

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 20, 2012 2:42:26 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 20, 2012 3:47:53 PM PST
A Customer says:
Thanks Jeff

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 20, 2012 2:48:24 PM PST
Rubedo says:
Macheath says:
So far 6 no votes on the O.P.

Got to love those petty Pavlovian no voting atheists and their clicking fingers :)

Rubedo:
I was wondering where those votes were coming from since there are only a few of us posting.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 20, 2012 3:14:43 PM PST
It is a completely and utterly futile exercise to discuss what is beyond human understanding.

According to the third Council of Sirmium, in 357,

http://ecole.evansville.edu/arians/7arcon.htm

the following was the position of the Arians with respect to the "divine nature" of Jesus:

<<But since many persons are disturbed by questions concerning what is called in Latin 'Substantia,' but in Greek 'Usia,' that is, to make it understood more exactly, as to 'Coessential,' or what is called, 'Like- in-Essence,' there ought to be no mention of any of these at all, nor exposition of them in the Church, for this reason and for this consideration, that in divine Scripture nothing is written about them, and that they are above men's knowledge and above men's understanding>>

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 20, 2012 3:42:46 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 20, 2012 3:46:55 PM PST
A Customer says:
Subjects such as the three persons in one nature of the Holy Trinity or the one person with two natures in the hypostatic union in Christ can never be fully grasped with our finite minds. Because they deal with the essence of the infinite God we can not fully grasp all of that essence, it lays outside our understanding of the finite things within our daily experience. Heck we don't even have to go to the infinite God to find things that are beyond our full comprehension, we find this in the world of Quantum Physics with the wave/particle duality of light and matter, it is something we don't experience in our daily life and thus lies beyond our ability to fully grasp with our minds.

But we can still know some things about those mysteries of the essence of God's nature like the two above mentioned doctrines. The whole point of the prayer known as discursive meditation is to concentrate the reasoning faculties of the mind on these doctrines to gains what we can from them.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 20, 2012 10:53:09 PM PST
If you do not obtain a satisfactory answer to this query on this thread bring it over to the thread I monitor and will answer this and original question.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 21, 2012 6:50:58 AM PST
A Customer says:
No thanks

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 21, 2012 8:05:38 AM PST
Rubedo says:
Macheath says:
Btw, that "Purification, illumination, Divinization", I had never heard it expessed that way, though I googled it and some use it. The more "standard" phraseology of spiritual theology is The Purgative Way, Illuminative Way, and Unitive Way

Rubedo:
I have been thinking that maybe I need to go back and start from scratch: Via Purgativa before assuming illumanitive..

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 21, 2012 8:53:03 AM PST
A Customer says:
I hope I can find the discipline to get through all three stages some day. A couple of suggested books for an intro to the subject;
The Fulfillment of All Desire
Fire Within
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  6
Total posts:  22
Initial post:  Dec 19, 2012
Latest post:  Dec 21, 2012

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