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The Real "Mary Was Sinless -- Part IX" (Beware of cheap imitations!)

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Initial post: Jan 8, 2013 6:36:53 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 8, 2013 6:47:10 AM PST
Kevin Bold says:
The "classic" arguments against Our Lady's sinlessness:

1) Romans 3:23 -- Paul quotes a hyperbolic OT verse written before either Mary or Jesus were conceived. This verse may apply to us, but it doesn't apply to Mary any more than it applies to Jesus.

2) Infinite Regress of Sinless Grannies -- For Mary to be sinless, her mother, St. Anne, had to be sinless, as did Mary's maternal grandmother, great-grandmother, great-great-grandmother, and so on, to the beginning of the human race. This "argument" insults God's power over sin, and is patently silly as well.

3) "It's not in the Bible" -- Thanks to Scripture's endorsements of Apostolic Tradition (2 Thessalonians 2:15) and the Church (1 Timothy 3:15), it doesn't have to be in Scripture. OTOH, God's holiness, a sinners' inability to withstand God's glory in fullness, and OT Marian typology, all of which ARE in Scripture, point to it.

4) "Only Catholics believe it." -- That's an argument? Yes, it is. It's an _ad hominem_ argument, and therefore fallacious.

5) "Catholics didn't believe it until 1854." -- Not true. Most did, even before it was elevated to a dogma in 1854.

6) "Mary needed a savior, and only sinners need a savior" (Luke 1:47) -- a howling non-sequitur; God saved Mary from sin by keeping sin from entering her when she was conceived. Mary then continued, eventually saying, "(F)or he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name" (Luke 1:49).

7) Luke 2:22-24: Mary and Joseph offered two turtledoves because a woman who'd had a baby was RITUALLY UNCLEAN. Having a baby is NOT a sin (aborting one, though, is). I should also note that this sacrifice is one of the "works of the law" which Paul rightly pointed out justifies no one (not one of the "works of mercy" which James was talking about when he said "Faith without works is dead").

8) The Church Fathers weren't in unanimity on the matter, or didn't think so: Oh, puh-LEEZ give me a break!

9) "If Mary had been sinless, she could have been sacrificed instead of Christ." -- again, ignorance of OT typology. The Passover Lamb, which prefigures Christ, had to be male (XY chromosome, etc.).

10) "(I)f you knew how a female body nourishes a baby, you'd know that no blood is mingled." -- Sin enters the child at the moment of conception (Ps 51:5), inside the mother's womb. "No intermingling of blood" doesn't matter. God wouldn't want to be inside a sinner anymore than the _shekinah_ would remain inside a defiled temple (as if a placenta would stop sin, anyway).

Let's see what they throw at us in this round.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 6:54:45 AM PST
Kevin Bold,

In all seriousness, I had opened the other discussion, with your OP from the previous, so that a thread would not appear which was intended to "hijack" the discussion, as had happened previously.

I suggest you return to the one I opened for you, and accept it graciously, as it was intended. It was opened for your benefit to avoid competing threads...

Grace and Peace, Brother,

S.D.G.

Posted on Jan 8, 2013 7:08:54 AM PST
Kevin Bold says:
Did it ever occur to you, Bruce, that this time I may have wanted to write a slightly different OP?

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 7:09:52 AM PST
Kevin Bold says:
Baloney.

Posted on Jan 8, 2013 7:34:14 AM PST
Kevin Bold says:
In the previous installment,

JEM said: Protestants claim that their authority is the Bible but everyone interprets it in its own way.
StevePL replied: But it doesn't vary that much.

JEM cleaned StevePL's clock: Please consider these very important doctrinal differences:
* The Lutheran Church believes in baptismal regeneration, the Baptist church does not.
* The Lutheran Church believes that worship should be liturgical, the Assembly of God church does not.
* Lutheran, Anglican, Episcopalians and Methodists (to varying degrees) believe that Christ is present in the Eucharist. Other Protestants believe the Eucharist is just a symbol or that Christ presence is only spiritual
* Presbyterians believe in unconditional atonement and irresistible grace, Methodists reject the two beliefs.
* The Church of Christ denomination believes that baptism is necessary for salvation, the Baptist Church does not.
* The Church of Christ denomination believes that baptism should be administered by complete immersion only, Presbyterians believe pouring is acceptable.
* Methodists believe in the Trinity, Oneness Pentecostals do not.
* Lutherans affirm the fact that Mary remained a virgin throughout her life; Baptists reject this belief and say that Mary had other children.
* The Methodist church accepts female ministers, while the Baptist church rejects female ministers as unbiblical.
* Anglican, Episcopalians, Lutherans and Methodists baptize infants, Pentecostals and Baptists believe infant baptism to be invalid
* The Baptist Church teaches that once a person is saved, he is always saved and can not fall from grace. The Church of Christ rejects this teaching as unscriptural

The differences continue to things that should be considered minor:
* The Assembly of God denomination uses instrumental music during worship, the Church of Christ denomination believes instrumental music to be unbiblical.

Once again, reality conflicts with Steve's "discernment."

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 8:22:24 AM PST
QUESTER says:
Luke 10:41 And the Lord answering, said to her: Martha, Martha, thou art careful, and art troubled about many things:

42 But one thing is necessary. Mary hath chosen the best part, which shall not be taken away from her.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 8:31:09 AM PST
Kevin Bold says:
Wrong Mary, Quester.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 8:36:29 AM PST
Kevin,

Then, may I suggest you enter it as a post on that discussion?

Grace and Peace, Brother,

S.D.G.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 8:39:34 AM PST
QUESTER says:
QUESTER says:

Luke 10:41 And the Lord answering, said to her: Martha, Martha, thou art careful, and art troubled about many things:

42 But one thing is necessary. Mary hath chosen the best part, which shall not be taken away from her.

Kevin Bold says: Wrong Mary, Quester.
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I wasn't talking about MARY, KEVIN ...

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 8:44:15 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 8, 2013 9:00:27 AM PST
Kevin Bold says:
Then you should have quoted another verse.

(Not that watching you backpedal when you got caught in a mistake wasn't fun, LOL...)

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 8:49:12 AM PST
Very informative.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 8:49:56 AM PST
Kevin Bold says:
Welcome to the real thread, Lily.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 8:54:23 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 8, 2013 8:55:21 AM PST
QUESTER says:
Kevin Bold says:

Then you should have quoted another verse.

(Not that watcihing you backpedal when you got caught in a mistake wasn't fun, LOL ...)
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You're unbelievable.

Posted on Jan 8, 2013 8:55:21 AM PST
Amon says:
ON and ON the drones march. Towards dispute with nothing in their minds 'cept argumentation 'bout nothin.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 9:03:53 AM PST
QUESTER,

You might want to continue this discussion on Kevin's other thread "Mary Was Sinless -- Part IX."

At this point, the tone is a bit more civil, there...

Grace and Peace,

S.D.G.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 9:10:50 AM PST
Ferdinand says:
QUESTER says:
QUESTER says:

Luke 10:41 And the Lord answering, said to her: Martha, Martha, thou art careful, and art troubled about many things:

42 But one thing is necessary. Mary hath chosen the best part, which shall not be taken away from her.

Kevin Bold says: Wrong Mary, Quester.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wasn't talking about MARY, KEVIN ...
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Not with the aim of disagreemet or uncivil discourse, but a simple question, based in the meaning of the verse, would that mean that all non-Catholic congregations spend the time in contemplation? I believe that was Mary, the sis of Martha and Lazarus, was doing when she was at Jesus' feet.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 9:15:56 AM PST
Kevin Bold says:
Not only do they spend LESS time in contemplation, they think it's "of the devil."

(Contemplation is also known as meditation. Fundies hate meditation...)

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 9:20:06 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 8, 2013 9:23:06 AM PST
QUESTER says:
Ferdinand Rodriguez says:
QUESTER says:

Luke 10:41 And the Lord answering, said to her: Martha, Martha, thou art careful, and art troubled about many things:

42 But one thing is necessary. Mary hath chosen the best part, which shall not be taken away from her.

Kevin Bold says: Wrong Mary, Quester.

Quester: I wasn't talking about MARY, KEVIN ...

Ferdinand: Not with the aim of disagreemet or uncivil discourse, but a simple question, based in the meaning of the verse, would that mean that all non-Catholic congregations spend the time in contemplation? I believe that was Mary, the sis of Martha and Lazarus, was doing when she was at Jesus' feet.
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Actually ... Mary sat listening to Jesus (at His feet).

Luke 10:38 As Jesus and his disciples were on their way, he came to a village where a woman named Martha opened her home to him. 39 She had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord's feet listening to what he said.

So ... yes ...

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 9:24:13 AM PST
Kevin Bold says:
So when were you planning on beginning to listen to Jesus, Quester?

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 9:37:53 AM PST
QUESTER says:
Kevin Bold says:

So when were you planning on beginning to listen to Jesus, Quester?
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I've been listening to Jesus for about 50 years, Kevin.

How about you ?

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 9:46:54 AM PST
Saint Karen says:
Why is it that you post Scripture giving evidence against her "sinlessness" instead of Scripture that would actually PROVE her "sinlessness?"

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 9:48:13 AM PST
Kevin Bold says:
I don't know whom you've listened to, but it's not Jesus.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 9:50:09 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 8, 2013 8:13:38 PM PST
Ferdinand says:
Q,

Then, you are in contemplation which involves listen and meditate, would that be right? Again, Mary was doing that.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 9:50:38 AM PST
QUESTER says:
Whatever you say ... Kevvy boy ...

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 9:51:18 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 8, 2013 9:52:51 AM PST
QUESTER says:
Ferdinand Rodriguez says:
Q,

Then, you are comtemplation which involves listen and meditate, would that be right? That was Mary was doing.
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Yes ...

(BTW - Congrats on discerning the meaning of my original post ... don't tell Kevvy, though ...)
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  49
Total posts:  10000
Initial post:  Jan 8, 2013
Latest post:  Mar 3, 2013

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