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The absurd Christian doctrine of atonement


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Showing 1-25 of 283 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Dec 7, 2012 1:38:26 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 10, 2012 9:47:58 AM PST
Celsus says:
First, God created his naïve humans, put them in a garden, then placed a tree with tempting fruit in there, and told them not to eat it. But he did everything he could to make them eat it, which included:

1) Creating A+E without any concept of good and evil, therefore incapable of making right moral choices, thus insuring they would eventually make a wrong choice, such as eating the forbidden fruit;
2) Sending Satan in to tempt them, and doing nothing to stop him;
3) Lying to A+E about the consequences of eating the fruit, which he said would cause them to die the day they ate it (which did not happen), but failing to tell them about the more serious consequences of eating the fruit, which include the curses he planned to inflict on them and their progeny for all generations, not to mention his failure to tell them about eternal hell, and how their one fruit-eating act would ensure most of their progeny ended up there.

So once his two morally defective children ate the fruit (His plan all along) this gave Him the opportunity to correct the situation by some means of atonement. In his wisdom, he decided the best way to go about this was to sacrifice himself to himself to appease his anger over the fruit-eating incident. But He was in no hurry to bring about this great atoning act. He waited 4000 years - plenty of time for mankind to really regret the fruit-eating incident via various God-inflicted genocides, plagues and a worldwide flood - and then incarnated himself as a man/god in some backwater part of the world. He then arranged to have himself crucified, then rose from the dead, witnessed by a handful of devoted followers, none of whom managed to record anything about it, probably because they were illiterate.

It was another 150 years before complete (but anonymously written) accounts appeared, detailing what transpired on that most eventful day. Unfortunately, however, no one bothered to remember the day or even the year of this most holy and significant event in the history of the world. Nor did they even commemorate the event on a yearly basis until someone eventually chose a date for it - the same date when other pagan deities celebrated their resurrections. Nor did the early Christians take note of the location of the most holy of all relics - the tomb. If they had, maybe the story would appear a little more like a genuine historical event, and a little less like a fairy tale.

Nevertheless, you must believe all the above in order for the Christian atonement to work for you. It is ineffective for non-believers, who must be content with an eternity spent in hell, along with billions of others who similarly found the doctrine too absurd to believe. So it would appear that gullibility coupled with a low IQ may be the best means of ensuring a place in the Christian heaven.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 2:00:51 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 7, 2012 2:01:20 PM PST
Iatric says:
Where did He say they would die that day? Sounds like the same lie they were told by Satan that you've latched onto.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 2:08:59 PM PST
Craig says:
Is that your only defense against what Celsus posted? Isn't failure to warn A and E of the other consequences lying by omission? And if someone doesn't know good and evil how can they make correct choices? I came to the conclusion this story is an allegory at best.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 2:33:26 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 7, 2012 2:34:20 PM PST
Iatric says:
The answer lies in what is meant by knowing. Knowing something, represented by the Hebrew word "yada" can be either cognitive or experiential. Adam was given a conscience and knew that he was to follow God's will. Feel free to google it or examine various commentaries if you like to dwell on it deeper. Happy hunting. Take care and God Bless you and yours...

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 2:56:12 PM PST
Craig says:
Iatric says: "Where did He say they would die that day? Sounds like the same lie they were told by Satan that you've latched onto."

Gen 2:17 YLT "and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die."

Gen 2:17 KJV With strongs"But of the tree 6086 of the knowledge 1847 of good 2896 and evil 7451, thou shalt not eat 398 of it: for in the day 3117 that thou eatest 398 thereof thou shalt surely 4191 die 4191 .

Strongs 3117
1) day, time, year

a) day (as opposed to night)

b) day (24 hour period)

1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1

2) as a division of time

a) a working day, a day's journey

c) days, lifetime (pl.)

d) time, period (general)

e) year

f) temporal references

1) today

2) yesterday

3) tomorrow

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 3:06:16 PM PST
Iatric says:
The day is in reference to the day they eat it, not that they would die that day. However, they did begin dying that day as we all do now.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 3:12:10 PM PST
Astrocat says:
Celsus, I would be so much more facetious than you are. I applaud your discretion.

Since all of this is not only symbolical, but lots of it has taken the original symbols and allegories and twisted them out of recognition, I much declare myself an "unbeliever". So I'll sit back and observe for awhile.....

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 3:20:06 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 7, 2012 3:22:17 PM PST
Craig says:
On the day you eat of it you will die tomorrow? Next year? 930 years? LOL

EDIT: Gen 5:5 "So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died."

It says he "lived" for 930 years, he didn't "die" for 930 years.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 3:26:09 PM PST
Astrocat says:
Craig, you know what they'll say about that, don't you? That a "day" for "God" doesn't necessarily mean a 24 hour day. Of course, these are the same folks who will tell you that the world was created in 6 24 hour days, but let's not expect them to be consistent!!

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 3:41:15 PM PST
Craig says:
Nancy, I know all their answers, I used them for 31 or so years myself. I used to be a YEC and a Fundamentalist. At this point I'm not sure why I was though. Probably because I dove in head first and didn't ask the right questions. I needed something at the time and Christianity filled my need. I became very indoctrinated and taught others at home bible studies. Then I came here and started reading, people asked me questions I was unwilling to ask myself before. One of the first "brothers" here that found out about the change that was occurring in me quoted to me the serpent in Genesis 3-1 "Has God indeed said". That was profound to me, because I was asking myself that question. I conclude, no He didn't, not the way I was taught anyway.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 3:42:02 PM PST
Iatric says:
He began dying on the day he ate. Take a look at the Hebrew and see that it translates more literally to "dying you shall die", and maybe you'll understand it better. Better exegesis rather than trusting one's own English understanding is helpful in cases such as this.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 3:44:00 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 7, 2012 3:44:22 PM PST
Astrocat says:
Craig, oh, I hear you loud and clear. I became a Catholic at the age of 19 and also kind of "dove in" without asking any questions at all. I just swallowed it whole. I sit here, nearly 60 years later and shake my head in astonishment. I did that?

Posted on Dec 7, 2012 3:45:12 PM PST
Ryan Willis says:
That is consistent actually. Reading the creation days as literal days does not contradict the rest of Scripture and there are enough references later on and enough quotes from the Talmud that the creation story is founded on literal days at face value and when examined to deeper layers of meaning also holds a more symbolic value that builds off of the literal one. The 7 days of creation serve as a template that can be followed from Genesis to Revelation.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 3:46:02 PM PST
Astrocat says:
Well, Ryan, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 3:51:01 PM PST
So what are you trying to say? That you don't believe the Bible?

:)

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 3:51:13 PM PST
Craig says:
Ryan I understand that you believe God is capable of creating everything in 6 literal days, I believe that also. But I don't think The Creator actually did that. There is much evidence that the universe is very old. Do you think The Creator would be purposely deceitful?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 3:51:51 PM PST
another atheist bully posts in the wrong forum to harass other people for his amusement

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 3:52:02 PM PST
Craig says:
Good thing you put that smile at the end. ;-)

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 3:54:08 PM PST
:)

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 4:07:08 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 7, 2012 4:09:50 PM PST
Celsus says:
Iatric

>>Where did He say they would die that day?<<

Gen 2:16+17:

" And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

>> Sounds like the same lie they were told by Satan that you've latched onto.<<

No, Satan told the truth. He said: ""You surely will not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

This proved to be true. Their eyes were opened and they didn't die for nearly a thousand years. Only God lied in telling them they would die that day, and by failing to tell them the other terrible things he had in store for them and their progeny.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 4:07:54 PM PST
Iatric says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 4:08:32 PM PST
Iatric says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 4:10:56 PM PST
Celsus says:
And you have yet to provide any cogent answers.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 4:17:07 PM PST
Iatric says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 7, 2012 4:53:59 PM PST
jpl says:
Where did He say they would die that day? Sounds like the same lie they were told by Satan that you've latched onto.

jpl: Good grief, theist! Read your own holy books! The first book will answer your question.. . . amazing . . .
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  32
Total posts:  283
Initial post:  Dec 7, 2012
Latest post:  Jan 20, 2013

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