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Mary Was Sinless -- Part IX

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Initial post: Jan 6, 2013 5:15:33 PM PST
All,

Since we are now within about 500 posts of moving on to this discussion, I just thought I would save my dear friend, Kevin Bold, all the time required to copy and paste his original post for the eighth time...

+ + +

In our last episode, I (Kevin Bold) gave some of the arguments against Mary's sinlessness:

1) Romans 3:23 -- doesn't apply to Mary

2) Infinite Regress of Sinless Grannies -- patently silly.

3) "It's not in the Bible" -- doesn't have to be, although God's holiness, sinners' inability to withstand God's glory, and OT Marian typology, all of which are in Scripture, point to it.

4) "Only Catholics believe it." -- That's an argument?

5) "Catholics didn't believe it until 1854." -- History proves otherwise.

Then I found some more:

6) Luke 1:47 -- God saved Mary from sin by keeping sin from entering her when she was conceived. Mary then continued, eventually saying, "(F)or he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name" (Luke 1:49).

7) Luke 2:22-24: Mary and Joseph offered two turtledoves because a woman who'd had a baby was RITUALLY UNCLEAN. Having a baby is NOT a sin (aborting one is).

8) The Church Fathers weren't in unanimity on the matter, or didn't think so: Oh, puh-LEEZ give me a break!

Did I leave anything out this time?

ADDENDA: Yes, someone came up with something not included above:

"(I)f you knew how a female body nourishes a baby, you'd know that no blood is mingled."

Sin enters the child at the moment of conception (Ps 51:5), inside the mother's womb. "No intermingling of blood" doesn't matter. God wouldn't want to be inside a sinner anymore than the _shekinah_ would remain inside a defiled temple (as if a placenta would stop sin, anyway).

+ + +

Kevin, got your back! Feel free to continue the squabble...

Grace and Peace, Brother,

S.D.G.

Posted on Jan 8, 2013 3:41:02 AM PST
Kevin Bold,

Here you go! Only five more posts and you will need this one.

All yours...

Grace and Peace, Brother,

S.D.G.

Posted on Jan 8, 2013 4:28:12 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 8, 2013 7:00:04 AM PST
José,

RE: "Go back and read. I stated that they were not yet called that because sacramental theology was not fully developed, but so was the case with the Eucharist and baptism, and also with the Trinity, the nature of Christ, etc."

However, the Early Church DID understand a) Baptism and the Eucharist were commanded by Christ and b) that God was truly, physically and locally present in Baptism and the Eucharist. They may not have had the precise term (Sacrament," but they practiced Baptism and the Eucharist as Sacraments. Not so with the other five.

And, again, at one time your denomination held to dozens of "Sacraments," only reducing the number to seven, owing to the theological significance of the number...

Grace and Peace, Brother,

S.D.G.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 4:47:38 AM PST
JEM says:
Bruce E. Wade says:
"Baptism and the Eucharist as Sacraments. Not so with the other five."

So answer my question: since the LCMS say there are three (see http://www.xrysostom.com/compare.html), so what are you doing in a denomination with which you have such an important doctrinal difference?

Posted on Jan 8, 2013 4:58:11 AM PST
Readings for the Tuesday after Epiphany, January 8, 2013:

*******************************************

Reading 1: 1 Jn 4:7-10;

Responsorial Psalm: Ps 72:1-2, 3-4, 7-8;

Gospel: Mk 6:34-44.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 5:12:14 AM PST
"7) Luke 2:22-24: Mary and Joseph offered two turtledoves because a woman who'd had a baby was RITUALLY UNCLEAN. Having a baby is NOT a sin (aborting one is)."

Mary - being Jewish - carried out the TRADITIONAL ritual as per Jewish law...

Now, Mary's sinlessness was due to God, whereas as God's sinlessness needs no explanation. Yet, Jesus was baptized. Surely you aren't suggesting that that means He had original sin on His Soul?

Posted on Jan 8, 2013 5:38:58 AM PST
Lily says:
Yay, new thread.

Posted on Jan 8, 2013 5:42:36 AM PST
Saint Karen says:
Steve,

You commented on the "LOL" that people put at the end of their posts when they think they are being funny. I heard a story of a woman who thought in meant "lot's of love" and sent a message to her daughters. "Your grandmother has passed away. LOL"

Posted on Jan 8, 2013 5:45:20 AM PST
Lily says:
My mother is 84/60. Slowly but surely, she's coming back.

Posted on Jan 8, 2013 5:57:48 AM PST
I think I missed something (like the other 8 threads on this topic). If Jesus wasn't the only Sinless human, it would have cheapened the grace of his sacrifice for mankind.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 6:40:23 AM PST
Kevin Bold says:
Please do not participate in Bruce's attempt to hijack a thread.

http://tinyurl.com/b32fqm4

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 6:47:08 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 8, 2013 6:49:39 AM PST
Jay Runner says:
Kevin,

Does it really matter who hits the start 'new discussion' button?

Your idea has worked well, so well that now another has done likewise.

Peace in Christ,

Jay

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 6:50:14 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 8, 2013 7:03:38 AM PST
José,

The belief and practice of confessing Evangelical Lutherans is two Sacraments, Baptism and Holy Communion. Luther lists these two in the Large and Small Catechisms. Two are listed in the Augsburg Confession and Defense of the Augsburg Confession, and in the Solid Declaration and Epitome of the Formula of Concord.

However, Luther discussed, in early writings, Confession and Absolution as a third Sacrament. Some pastors encourage congregants to avail themselves of Private Confession and Absolution, stressing that such is "sacramental." However, the official position of the LCMS is that Private Confession and Absolution is a Rite, not a Sacrament.

If you are honestly looking for information on the beliefs of confessing Evangelical Lutherans, you might want to go to an original source. You could try www.lcms.org.

Grace and Peace, Brother,

S.D.G.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 6:51:40 AM PST
Kevin Bold says:
It does if one knows Bruce and what he's all about, and that's as gently as I can put it.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 6:56:56 AM PST
Kevin Bold,

I opened this thread, on your behalf, copied and pasted your previous OP, in order to avoid having competing threads, with one or more meant to "hijack" the discussion, as happened the last time.

Please accept this graciously, as it was intended, rather than trying to read into the gift something which simply is not there...

Grace and Peace, Brother,

S.D.G.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 6:58:28 AM PST
Lily,

How's your mother, today?

BTW: Please read my last post to you on the previous thread...

Grace and Peace, Sister,

S.D.G.

Posted on Jan 8, 2013 7:02:35 AM PST
Jay Runner says:
After a few of these threads I advised Kevin not to open another one.

I was wrong.

Peace in Christ,

Jay

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 7:03:04 AM PST
Jay,

Apparently, "who hit the start 'new discussion' button" matters to Kevin Bold.

I had opened this one, with his previous OP, to avoid competing threads with one obviously intended to "hijack" the discussion as Pastor Jim's was intended, last time.

I sincerely hope we can stay on one thread and not get distracted...

Grace and Peace, Brother,

S.D.G.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 7:05:47 AM PST
Jay,

If we can keep the discussion "above the table" and avoid the unnecessary insults, I really do not see the harm.

I do agree it gets a bit heated, but I am sincerely attempting to keep my involvement temperate...

Grace and Peace, Brother,

S.D.G.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 7:11:09 AM PST
Jay Runner says:
Bruce,

If we were all in one room discussing these things, it wouldn't matter who said let's get some coffee and be back in ten.

I'm not trying to take sides here. imo there is no side to take.

Peace in Christ,

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 7:28:49 AM PST
Iatric says:
One of the more childish things I've seen on this forum... Wow! Really???

Posted on Jan 8, 2013 7:47:23 AM PST
Lily says:
My mother is 84/60. Slowly but surely, she's coming back. They may send her to rehab after. If so, it is on the hospital grounds and more easily accessible for me.

Posted on Jan 8, 2013 7:55:12 AM PST
down2erth says:
I only arrived a few threads ago, but my contention remains the same: If Jesus were not God, it would not be necessary for Mary to be sinless; I gave a long list of scriptures, quoting Christ, Paul and others to indicate this was the case. This is my belief and this is why I make this statement.
Besides, it helps to add some spice to the recipe . . .

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 7:58:20 AM PST
Lily says:
Much better, Bruce. BP is rising. She ate a bit of solid food today. She's going to have another colonoscopy tomorrow. Won't be released before Thursday and will possibly be getting rehab here. One of her PTA from the rehab vented she was in before works here. It would be a hoot and a holler if she saw him again.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 8, 2013 8:04:47 AM PST
So funny.
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  54
Total posts:  10000
Initial post:  Jan 6, 2013
Latest post:  Apr 8, 2013

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