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How to prove true religion


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Showing 1-25 of 28 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Dec 20, 2012 9:05:09 PM PST
Adrian says:
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Posted on Dec 20, 2012 9:05:54 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 20, 2012 9:07:44 PM PST
Adrian says:
Apologetics

[edit]Apologetics

We do have seen above that most possibly thee true and best religion is Eastern orthodox Christianity. There seem to be some debates regarding its practices that we can discuss here

[edit]Idolatry debate

To discuss this we need to define an idol.
An idol is somebody or something equal or above God. In Eastern orthodoxy there is nothing above or equal with God, no infallible man, nothing. so there is no idolatry.
Kissing the picture of a girl or kneeling in front of a girl is not idolatry unless you believe the girl is above or equal with God.

[edit]Icons

Jesus is the Truth and we know that Jesus either made an icon not made by hands or an icon of himself was painted in front of him. Here is the account of the story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abgar_V
This prove people fighting icons wrong in this aspect at least, since Jesus can not be wrong.
Jeremiah 31:31 tells about new Law and that in new Law all people will know God, that is Jesus and this happens today through icons. In The Old Law people could not see God and Moses was not allowed to see God, anyhow in the New Law both the celebration day and this restriction as well as other did change. New means New.
Jeremiah 31: 31:31 Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Yahweh.
31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:
31:34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Yahweh; for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says Yahweh: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.
31:35 Thus says Yahweh, who gives the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, who stirs up the sea, so that the waves of it roar; Yahweh of hosts is his name:
This clearly shows:
The Old Law is not forever since Jeremiah 31:31 speaks of a New Law. The only religion knowing both Old and NEw Law in their Holy Book is Christianity so this can apply only to Christianity.
All people will know God, as Jeremiah prophecised, in the New Law thus invalidating the restriction of Old Law not to see God, see what happen to Moses.

[edit]Saints and Saint relics

We have even in Old Testament a description of an event in which a dead person that was thrown on the relics of a disciple of Elijah becomes alive. So the relics can give life to dead people. Also the cloth of Elijah could split waters.
With new Law people become closer to God so the relics of Holy People in New Law, that is Christians, have theoretically much more power than relics of people of Old Testament owing this to a more powerful law.
So believing that relics of Christian Saints and clothes of such Saints can perform miracles is true since we have a sample description of this in Old Testament.

[edit]Sola Scriptura debate

Sola Scriptura means this: take all valid historical documents beside Bible and invalidate them. Then use Bible to answer everything and if an answer is not in the Bible use imagination or word analysis or other means.
To see this more clearly lets think what would happen if historians would use Sola Herodotus, that is invalidating all historical documents other than Herodotus and trying to explain the events in first century using Herodotus writings. How can you would see if planes were then or not? You could not in Sola Herodotus.
For example we know what Christians did on Early Church on Sunday, since we have Holy Liturgy of Apostle James that is Celebrated even today in Church of Jerusalem, probably unmodified. Church of Jerusalem is the first Church established by Apostles that we can read about in Acts of Apostles and that is today Eastern Orthodox. http://orthodoxwiki.org/Liturgy_of_St._James
By looking at this Holy Liturgy we could spot quickly the errors and differences in Church services and prove protestant services as being novelty. As a fact, all Churches before 1500 served on Sunday Holy Liturgies and this proves even more that protestant services held today are novelties.
I am not aware of any non Liturgical Church service before 1500.
For people believing that Bible is enough and has everything, please extract from Bible the Holy Liturgy of Apostle James and then compare it with the original.

Baptism

For first 1400 years of Church history, children were baptised .

Posted on Dec 20, 2012 9:20:44 PM PST
Adrian says:
Look on youtube for near death experience.Many movies.
If you pray to God to see the departed one you miss you can see the departed person.

You can do every good deed you know in the name of departed person and this helps her. Every thing you give to a poor or stranger person in her name goes to her so think for example at food:
Matthew:
25:31: "But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory.
25:32: Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
25:33: He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
25:34: Then the King will tell those on his right hand, 'Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
25:35: for I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in;
25:36: naked, and you clothed me; I was sick, and you visited me; I was in prison, and you came to me.'
25:37: "Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you; or thirsty, and give you a drink?
25:38: When did we see you as a stranger, and take you in; or naked, and clothe you?
25:39: When did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?'
25:40: "The King will answer them, 'Most assuredly I tell you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers{The word for "brothers" here may be also correctly translated "brothers and sisters" or "siblings."}, you did it to me.'

Posted on Dec 20, 2012 9:53:07 PM PST
Adrian says:
From Eastern Orthodox almost 2000 years history:

Prayer of the Hearth, visiting heaven from this life:

According with Father Cleopa, movie here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOGXdLoNl2w, there are the following stages of prayer:

1.prayer of the lips - when prayer is just said
2.prayer of the mind - when mind comprehends the prayer
3.prayer of the hearth - when the hearth feels the prayer
4.active prayer - when hearth starts praying alone even in sleep
5.all-seeing prayer - when unseen world including angels becomes visible together with future, past
6.ecstasy prayer - when mind is taken to Heaven
7.contemplative prayer - when people can be taken to Heaven

In Bible I believe that Apostle Paul speaks about unceasing prayer and about a man being taken to the third Heaven, that is Heaven.The person he was speaking about may have been in last stage of prayer.

Practical teachings about raising through prayer stages is done in the book "The way of The Pilgrim" http://desertfathers.webs.com/thewayofthepilgrim.htm ,http://www.amazon.com/Way-Pilgrim-Continues-His/dp/0060630175 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Way_of_a_Pilgrim and this book recommends saying "Lord Jesus Christ Son of God, have mercy on me !" for 3000 times a day for around one week, then for 6000 times a day for around another week then for 12 000 times a day for around another week and then continuing. Also, practical advice about the Prayer of the Hearth is done in the book named Philokalia. "The Way of the Pilgrim" book recommends a certain way in reading Philokalia The Philokalia, Volumes 1-4 so as to understand better the Prayer of the Hearth.

The Way of the Pilgrim ,[url]http://desertfathers.webs.com/thewayofthepilgrim.htm[/url], instructs reading from the Philokalia this way:
"Those who are uninstructed, but who nevertheless desire to learn interior prayer from this book, should take things in this order.

First of all, read through the book of Nicephorus the monk (in part two),

then the whole book of Gregory of Sinai, except the short chapters,

Simeon the new theologian on the three forms of prayer and his discourse on faith,

and after that the book of Callistus and Ignatius. In these Fathers there are full directions and teaching on interior prayer of the heart, in a form which everyone can understand.

"And if, in addition, you want to find a very understandable instruction on prayer,
turn to part four and find the summarized pattern of prayer by the most holy Callistus,
patriarch of Constantinople."

How bad is a false religion, if people find the truth and try to escape they are condemned and if anyone wants to tell the truth bad words are uttered.

You don't need a certain level for your prayers to be listened to or to visit Heaven from this life, you can pray with your own power and words and probably things will happen.
Luke
11:9: "I tell you, keep asking, and it will be given you. Keep seeking, and you will find. Keep knocking, and it will be opened to you.
11:10: For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be opened.

Everyone means everyone not only people in 7th stage of prayer. Ask to be in the Book of life at the end of life and this will pb happen.

Posted on Dec 22, 2012 4:34:00 AM PST
Adrian says:
Anyone can ask God about best religion and denomination in his eyes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjc76QsKONM

Posted on Dec 22, 2012 5:02:33 AM PST
Did all the people born before Jesus immediately go to hell?

Posted on Dec 22, 2012 5:09:50 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 22, 2012 5:10:17 AM PST
Adrian says:
Enoch and Elijah were not dying thus they went somewhere up.

Posted on Dec 22, 2012 5:10:57 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 22, 2012 5:18:24 AM PST
What about everyone else?

Posted on Dec 22, 2012 5:15:25 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 22, 2012 5:20:50 AM PST
Adrian says:
Gospel of Nicodemus say they ended up down anyhow Jesus knows the truth. In my understanding, there is no heaven in religion before Jesus only Sheol, Hades and alike with some parts for righteous that were OK.
Jesus is priest and can baptize, confess and commune anyone so I don't know.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 22, 2012 5:18:07 AM PST
Do you acknowledge that accepting Jesus as ones Lord and saviour is the only way to salvation?

Posted on Dec 22, 2012 5:25:51 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 22, 2012 5:26:55 AM PST
Adrian says:
What do you mean by accepting Jesus? Baptism?
Orthodox soul going to Heaven. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyBDs8JpEa8

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 23, 2012 5:26:40 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 23, 2012 5:31:02 AM PST
Nova137 says:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyBDs8JpEa8

EDIT:

Adrian,

You have one of the most innocent souls I've ever encountered. "Authentic" comes to mind, in a soft, gentle, loving demeanor. I like the way you feel. Like after the finishing touch, smooth and clear.

I was going to post your youtube link to my browser, but the preceding thought about your nature consumed my attention for fractions of a second while my mind continued to mechanically copy the youtube line, paste it in the Add your own message to the discussion box and hit post while the above thought to you was just finishing! lol. God love the two parts of us (the mechanical part and the free part).

Posted on Dec 23, 2012 5:35:53 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 23, 2012 5:50:43 AM PST
Nova137 says:
Here is a little guy having a conversation in, what one can imagine is, another tongue (perhaps his native tongue), or angelic tongue itself. I love the way, at the very end, he pulls his jello (maybe its red apple sauce?) cup closer and says, "No, mine."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHx_uyLdF1w

EDIT: He also says, "mine" at the very beginning.

Posted on Dec 23, 2012 5:51:06 AM PST
Nova137 says:
Btw, Adrian, thanks for turning me on to these videos!!

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 23, 2012 6:53:24 AM PST
Adrian, Peace always in the Most Precious Blood of Jesus our Great God and Saviour and His Church built on Peter the rock

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 23, 2012 7:03:26 PM PST
Lao Tzu says:
Adrian, you mention god in your argument. You cannot assume the very concept which is under scrutiny. Your argument is circular.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 24, 2012 5:07:26 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 24, 2012 5:12:01 AM PST
Nova137 says:
Lao,

You assume an outside observer to define human experience as "objective". Every human being's knowledge is circular in this sense. If, by postulating a god or gods, one is lead to a consistent set of experiences, one can say that the original assumption is "objective" in this sense. In other words, there is no more objectivity in confirming through any method of truth (e.g., the scientific method) than any other. It is internal consistency that is sought. All experience is circular, in this sense. What science, for instance, has done is provide a means of measuring a person's belief about the outside world and its mechanisms against the belief. It calls these claims "truth claims". Then, in a needed move, it defines two types of truth claims. One it labels "objective knowledge", the other "subjective knowledge". If a person makes a claim, it is put up against the experience of other persons. If other persons can verify the claim such that their inner opinions about it can be made to align with the claimees reality, that knowledge is called "objective". If not, it is called "subjective," or relying on the subject's experience alone, which experience cannot be corroborated by means that all subjects could made to understand and "experience" it independent of their internal states.

The problem with this is there is a category error in objectivist metaphysics. It assumes that it is sufficient to extrapolate to the last person in order to justify its objective stance. There is, though, no observer outside a human brain. Without this extrapolation, technically, all human reason is circular.

Also, a person's belief is admitted to lack knowledge of the source it proposes. This is actually equivalent to faith, not reason. For its purpose, limited to a faith-based sphere, it works well. In fact, the last thing our species would really want is to eliminate it.

Why? Because in our lives, living as we do with a belief in the reproducibility of our past experience and that it will continue to reinforce itself again, as it has for most of our lives, we want our beliefs in the future to hold both elements of objective and subjective knowledge.

Does this make sense? Can you see what you've been overlooking here? Can you imagine a world of the known? Do you even, have you even comprehended how much the element of the unknown plays into the very structure of your search for objectivity? Not only that, but that this subjective part is the element, the very element that provides the means upon which your objectivity is structured and built upon.

And, in a never ending story, the layers of bedrock are interchanged from objective to subjective to objective to subjective, layer upon layer. Each myster of the next moment holds the element of surprise for you. What will happen next? I don't know. Can you show me X? No. The future is subjective. When you learn the next moment and what it holds (my wife just called me to breakfast, my child just came in "daddy, daddy ...", my son just won the game, I just had *this* thought, I now know I want to be a ____ when I grow up, etc.) the subjective goes to objective, continuously like a stream of raw data being experienced by you moment by moment.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 24, 2012 6:00:25 AM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct 6, 2015 8:12:01 AM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 24, 2012 2:20:22 PM PST
Lao Tzu says:
Nova, if your rather confusing post is to try to say there is no objective reality, then god is also just opinion, and you should not expect anyone else to believe it.

I have never understood this "move" by Christians. They go from mysticism (God came to me, I have no proof) to skepticism (no one can objectively "know" anything).

Note what these views have in common. In the first view man is helpless, merely the recipient of divine knowledge. In the second view man is..... also helpless, because he cannot rely on his sense faculties for knowing the truth.

Also note that if you claim both, you have to say "I know god exists because you cannot know anything".

The other option is 1) there is an objective reality, whether you like it or not. 2) we can understand this reality through reason. 3) there is truth.

This is what I subscribe to, because it is not a self defeating argument.

This is not to say that we perceive reality through exactly the same filter, but it is the same reality we are getting different perspectives on.

There may be a point in your post, but it seems non-useful. Normally I am the one pleading for someone to process what I write, but I also try to make my point as clear as possible.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 24, 2012 3:05:41 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 24, 2012 3:07:30 PM PST
Nova137 says:
Lao,

My point is that if postulating that God exists is circular, so is postulating an outside observer to this supposed objective reality you postulate is outside your cogitating brain.

Drop both, I say. Get real.

EDIT: Or, keep both, but be mindful of the metaphysical assumptions in both and stay consistent in each, but don't oppose each other. They are different metaphysics, but have a similar set of primary assumptions. The outside the system ontology is the common element.

Posted on Dec 24, 2012 3:50:41 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 24, 2012 3:51:44 PM PST
Adrian says:
Hi,

You're welcome guys.
God exists and it is an objective experience as people coming from death tell about God coming to them, and this is Jesus. Nobody uttered any other name.

Also this did happen to one of my work buddies and he came from death after 80+ miles/hour Toyota Yaris car crash , and he told me what I did know already.
It is objective, it does happen and it is hard to get to it, true. Just because it is hard, it does not mean does not exists.

Posted on Dec 24, 2012 4:00:55 PM PST
Adrian says:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjc76QsKONM

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 24, 2012 6:09:48 PM PST
>>Normally I am the one pleading for someone to process what I write, but I also try to make my point as clear as possible.<<

The meaning of this is unclear to me.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 24, 2012 6:14:48 PM PST
>>Just because it is hard, it does not mean does not exists.<<

We are dealing with probability here and for me the probability factor is approaching zero.

Posted on Dec 25, 2012 3:27:08 PM PST
Adrian says:
Some doc said 1-5% of USA people go through a near death experience and there are many many books, and experiences and even I believe a science, studying this phenomenon.
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