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Part V: Call for Reform in the Catholic Church--Why and what is needed to effect much needed change!

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Initial post: Dec 29, 2012 11:23:41 PM PST
This is a continuation of Part IV. If you need to reference previous discussion, go to: http://www.amazon.com/forum/christianity/ref=cm_cd_fp_ef_sd?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx77WQHU8YS50Z&cdOpenPostbox=1#CustomerDiscussionsPost

Posted on Dec 30, 2012 12:01:22 PM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 12:17:20 PM PST
IFeelFree says:
Reform yourself.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 1:04:42 PM PST
Is there a Catholic forum?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 1:17:01 PM PST
Astrin Ymris says:
Patricia J. Senneville,

Re: "...Is there a Catholic forum?..."

Yes, but it's even worse for rancor and bile than the Politics forum, as the Christianity forum is worse than the Religion forum.

"Sterile sex" seems to be Reesey's term for deliberately engaging in non-procreative orgasms. Didn't you read her posts on it?

First you complain because I'm not using Catholic terminology, then you complain when I do. I wish you'd be consistent.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 2:03:53 PM PST
"Sterile Sex" is not Catholic terminology that I have ever heard it used before. And no, I do not recall anyone using the term before I read your post, so I must have missed Reesey's use of the term. I apologize for not being attentive enough to have caught it when Reesey used it.

Catholic moral teaching on "non-procreative orgasms"--another term I never heard used before either, although I have heard of "non-procreative sex," so I could conclude that it means "sex that does not result in pregnancy, including masturbation"--is that

1) all marital sex is licit as long as the couple are open to the creation of new life, even if it is not possible, and the sexual act is an act of mutual self-giving.

2) all non-marital sex is illicit, though not always sinful. A rape victim has not sinned.

Posted on Dec 30, 2012 2:44:22 PM PST
Balancement says:
The Guardian, December 30, 2012

The disgrace of papal blessing for Ugandan homophobia:

"The pope is a social issues guy, more interested in themes like 'traditional' family values, gay marriage and abortion than, say, helping the poor. And the Vatican is quick to slap down anyone - but especially any women, and particularly women who have the nerve to think of themselves as equal to men - who focuses on helping the most in need, instead of crusading against abortion and gay people. As far as the Church is concerned, advocating for the equal participation of women is "radical feminism" worthy of condemnation; pushing for legislation that kills gay people is worthy of a blessing."

"Yes, that's correct: just around the same time the pope was drafting his first tweet, he met with Ugandan parliamentary speaker Rebecca Kadaga, who had earlier promised to level the death penalty for gays as a 'Christmas present' to the Ugandan people (minus, one assumes, the Ugandans who will be murdered because of their sexual orientation)."

"****She received a *private audience* with the pope,**** and a blessing."

"The pope - whose own track record on men who sodomize children isn't exactly stellar - blesses one of the people whose hateful policies not only provide social cover and justification for that violence but, if enacted, would put state power behind the imprisonment and execution of gay people."

"The Church's obsession with policing sexuality is nothing new: in fact, it's a centuries-old Catholic tradition for the Vatican to poke its nose in your bedroom when it feels its power is threatened. The early anti-sex crusades were focused on women - and haven't let up. Women were ordered to serve their husbands and were barred from the priesthood. Abortion was debated in Thomas Aquinas's day - he thought the act was a sin against the marriage, and that, of course, male fetuses were ensouled earlier than female ones - and for a long while, the Church distinguished between early and late-term abortions in terms of punishment."

More at: http://tinyurl.com/aaj24wm

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 3:08:26 PM PST
DMP says:
Strontium-90 clarifies (in part) ~

[That the now-blessed Kadaga, pushing for the 'Kill-the-Gays' bill in Uganda] "received a *private audience* with the pope."

Oh, dear--that's not going to make Lew happy.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 3:11:36 PM PST
Balancement says:
And Reesey will splutter and pretend to ignore it. You can bring a horse to truth, but you can't make it read it.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 3:12:33 PM PST
Steve says:
"Catholic moral teaching on "non-procreative orgasms"--another term I never heard used before either..."

I hesitate to think how many puns, jokes and comments could follow that one line!!!!!

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 3:20:36 PM PST
Probably.

I googled "non-procreative orgasms" and found myself on the Amazon Religion Forum. I gathered, among the "deleted by Amazon" posts that their definition of "non-procreative orgasms" is "masturbation." So, of course, what I wrote is quite subject to ridicule. So what.

Just as I had never heard of 'sterile sex,' I had never heard of 'non-procreative orgasms'. But I have heard a lot about masturbation.

Maybe 'sterile sex' and 'non-procreative orgasms' are just politically correct terms for masturbation. Who knew. Not I. Guess I am showing my age.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 3:24:11 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 30, 2012 3:36:22 PM PST
I read this story. A "private audience" with the Pope certainly doesn't imply that the Ugandan speaker was merely one of many who received a papal blessing or that the Pope was simply being polite. Let us hope, since we weren't there, that the Pope reaffirmed his anti-gay-persecution position.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 3:26:27 PM PST
I was thinking the same thing, Alexandra. I was hoping that the Pope took the opportunity of a private audience to tell this woman what was wrong with her legislation, from the Catholic perspective. But since it was a private audience, I doubt if we will ever know, unless one or the other spills the beans.

Thanks, by the way, for getting us restarted.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 3:33:14 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 30, 2012 5:36:29 PM PST
Steve says:
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Posted on Dec 30, 2012 3:33:19 PM PST
Reesey says:
Reesey,
""We, the Catholic Bishops of Uganda, appreciate and applaud the Government's effort to protect the traditional family and its values."

John C: People do not want the church to approve or celebrate homosexuality. We want it to denounce statments like the one the Bishops of Uganda made.

R: Huh?

Posted on Dec 30, 2012 3:39:37 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 30, 2012 3:40:16 PM PST
Reesey says:
Patricia: Reesey, it would be wise to not confuse Natural Law and the Laws of Nature. They are two different things. Whereas it is almost impossible to choose to live in contradiction with the Laws of Nature, one can live a very long life in contradiction with Natural Law.

R: Statements like: "The Natural Law, LIKE the Laws of Nature, exist" compare and contrast the NL and the Laws of Nature. They in no way confuse the two. Violations of EITHER carry consequences because they are immutable laws. The consequences of violating NL may not be as obvious, or even as deadly, as violating a law of nature (like gravity), but there are consequences just the same.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 3:44:29 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 30, 2012 3:58:51 PM PST
Reesey says:
Astrin: "Sterile sex" seems to be Reesey's term for deliberately engaging in non-procreative orgasms. Didn't you read her posts on it?

R: Good God, Astrin. I have explained what I mean by the term, SO MANY TIMES - and I have countered the above claim of yours JUST AS MANY TIMES - and still, you twist and distort. Unbelievable!

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 3:56:54 PM PST
Reesey says:
AR,

I have found no evidence that the Uganda delegates received a private audience with the Pope. In fact, it was a general audience, with thousands of others who attended the Pope's Wednesday GENERAL audience:

"FR. LOMBARDI: POPE DID NOT GIVE BLESSING TO UGANDANS BACKING DEATH PENALTY

Spokesman Responds to Media Reports on Officials Seeking Capital Punishment for Homosexuals

VATICAN CITY, DEC. 21, 2012 (Zenit.org).- Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, director of the Vatican press office, on Thursday denied media reports that Benedict XVI gave a blessing to a Ugandan dignitary visiting Rome.

The media attention came in the context of criticism that members of the Ugandan government are receiving for promoting capital punishment for homosexuals.

In answer to a question from the press, Fr. Lombardi recalled the Holy Father's stance on the death penalty and affirmed that a greeting with the Pope is in no way a sign of papal approval of policies.

Rebecca Kadaga was one of several Ugandan deputies who were among the thousands of visitors who attended Wednesday's general audience. Kadaga has said that she's in favor of punishing homosexuals with capital punishment.

Father Lombardi stressed Church teaching on the death penalty, as indicated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Vatican spokesman also clarified that "relations with the delegation were not outside the normal framework and there was no blessing."

"The group of Ugandan delegates greeted the Pope, as did many other persons who attended the audience with the Pope, which in no case is a specific sign of approval of the actions or proposals of Ms. Kadaga," Father Lombardi said.

The draft law in question was severely condemned by Archbishop Cyprian Kizito Lwanga of Kampala who recommended "a benevolent Christian focus."

http://www.zenit.org/article-36233?l=english

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 3:57:23 PM PST
Dear IFeelFree: You would not be the first, nor will you likely be the last, apologist who has recommended that advocates for reform in the Catholic Church reform themselves ahead of trying to reform the Church. So, I will tell you as I've told many others. I'm in a state of ongoing reformation, whereas the Church is sluggish, stodgy and complacent.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 4:15:44 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 30, 2012 4:27:44 PM PST
I understand your point, Reesey, but I would not juxtapose the two less people be confused. The hardest thing I had to do when introducing Natural Law was to separate it effectively from The Laws of Nature, even among adults.

And people can, and do, live long and prosperous lives in contradiction with Natural Law. Yes, there would be consequences, but death is not necessarily one of them, nor is physical mayhem.

When teaching about Natural Law, I would play a game with my students, and yes, it was a game. I would ask them to imagine a world where murder was the norm of behavior, where it was not only allowed, but expected that a person would kill another person with whom they were angry. What would the world be like? Who would benefit from it? Once they have sufficiently discussed the topic, I would pose the next one: What would the world be like if lying were the norm, where it was expected that someone would more likely be lying than telling the truth? Who would benefit most in this type of world? I would then ask them to pose similar questions. In a 50 minute class we rarely got more than three or four questions before the bells. But the conclusions were usually the same: the world would be pretty frightening and the only people who would benefit were lawyers who would make a lot of money off of prosecution and defense.

I really, really, really miss teaching that class.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 4:21:23 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 30, 2012 4:25:00 PM PST
Reesey says:
Can you post anything MORE biased, unobjective, and with less regard for actual facts?

Somehow, I doubt it.....

"Kadaga kissed the Pope's hand during the Wednesday General Audience on 12 December in the Vatican......The case exploded when certain elements of the Ugandan press made Kadaga's brief meeting with the Pope - when the speaker kissed Benedict XVI's hand and the two exchanged a quick greeting that lasted no more than 20-30 seconds -look by like a "blessing" from Pope Benedict XVI to the President of the country's Parliament."

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/benedetto-xvi-benedict-xvi-benedicto-xvi-omosessualita-homosexuality-homosexualidad-20674/

Embellishing the Truth makes people lose all credibility after the firestorm they generate dies down.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 4:21:51 PM PST
Reesey, I agree with John C. I think that most Catholics while they would not want the church to change her teachings on homosexuality, most would like the Vatican to denounce the statement of the Ugandan Bishops. And some would like very much to see the wording in the Catechism be less harsh. There are even some Catholics who would like it very much if the Church would celebrate homosexuality by approving marriage based solely on love, which would include same-sex marriage.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 4:23:34 PM PST
Then, please, for my benefit, since I obviously missed the previous discussion of this topic, explain to me what you mean by "sterile sex" or "non-procreative orgasm."

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 4:37:04 PM PST
Reesey says:
Patricia: most would like the Vatican to denounce the statement of the Ugandan Bishops.

R: Which statement? The one John C took out of context to make it look like the Bishops were actually APPROVING the Bill, instead of denouncing it?

In fact, it's the "style" of the Bishops to find something GOOD to say, before they get to the business of finding fault. They did the same thing with the statement to the LCWR - they first praised the nuns for their hard work, and loving service, and then, and only then, did they state very specifically their concerns. (The Media ignored the good stuff, and only printed the bad, making it look like the Vatican had nothing BUT complaints).

We must have good means to good ends. If the Ugandans want to "protect the traditional family and its values," that's a GOOD thing and deserving of praise. If their means to that good end are not good, then the Bishops have a right, and a duty, to express concern over that.

Which is exactly what they did. I'm sorry, but I see John C's complaint as one that denounces the good end itself - "protecting the traditional family and its values" - and not just the evil means to that good end which are currently in the Bill, and deserving of condemnation.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 30, 2012 4:38:57 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 30, 2012 4:40:15 PM PST
Reesey says:
In reply to your post on Nov 27, 2012 6:38:36 PM PST
Patricia J. Senneville says:
What is "sterile sex"? I have never heard this term before this evening.

You replied with a later post

Your post, in reply to an earlier post on Nov 27, 2012 7:00:25 PM PST
Last edited by you on Nov 27, 2012 7:09:49 PM PST
Reesey says:
A sex act in which a fruitful end is either deliberately and intentionally thwarted, (contraceptive, sterilization, abortion), or by which a fruitful end is impossible due to the very nature of the act itself (I think you can guess the vast array of these acts).

R: I have never used the term "non-procreative orgasm". Astrin just made that up.
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Initial post:  Dec 29, 2012
Latest post:  Dec 23, 2013

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