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Violence In America: God the answer or the problem?


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Initial post: Dec 27, 2012 1:36:23 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 27, 2012 4:13:53 PM PST
RKG says:
So we had another tragedy of our own making in Newton recently; and as is so often the case, it didn't take long for persons who are identified as Christian leaders to inveigh against our godless society -pretty much stating that incidents like these are the result of removing God from society. But is this truly the case? Is the removal of God from the public square in America the reason for these beastly actions?

Is the removal of God part of the problem or is God part of the problem? When I think of this the following are some of the things I note:

Who owns the most guns in our society? From what I have read, people who identify themselves as Christians are more likely to be owners of firearms than any other segment.

In other developed countries where God plays no official role in public life, violence and violence perpetrated by firearms not nearly as prevalent in those states as is violence here in America.

The USA is one of the most religious nations in the world, yet with the highest murder rate by far. And oddly enough the highest murder rates are found in those areas of the country that are most religious. As an example, in both church attendance and murders - the south reigns supreme.

Could it be argued that based on this evidence and more, that there is a correlation that God is the problem and not the absence of God?

Or perhaps it is more accurate to state that it is the way that God has been packaged and has been presented in this land of ours.... that is part of the problem...

Which is it? What say you?

Posted on Dec 27, 2012 1:57:54 PM PST
Joe Anthony says:
JJB says:

"Could it be argued that based on this evidence and more, that there is a correlation that God is the problem and not the absence of God?"

I say:

Based upon what you said, one could argue that there is a correlation between "belief in God" and "violence"; however, there are so may other variables involved; that one could also make cogent counter-arguments.

I suppose that when you say, "In other developed countries where God plays no official role in public life"; you are talking about the Europeans (unless you're talking about communist dictatorships such as the PRC, North Korea and Cuba, where religion is discouraged and suppressed). In any case, it's difficult to make comparisons because the histories, cultures, geographies and demographics of the USA are very different from anywhere else in the world. You can say, for example, that the USA would be better off if we all just started behaving like Sweden (which is largely non-religious), but how is that really possible given our differences? Sweden gave the world of cinema Ingmar Bergman; America gave the world of cinema John Wayne.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 27, 2012 2:32:38 PM PST
RKG says:
what other variables? do you care to share a few?

i would hardly call cuba or north korea developed countries.

i'm not a fan of john wayne so from my perspective - that's only hammering one more nail... unless of course this was your intent.

quite a few of modern day americans came from european stock. quite a few americans love to identify themselves as european american. there are more similarities than differences. i think it is quite easy to make comparisons.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 27, 2012 2:53:47 PM PST
A Customer says:
"As an example, in both church attendance and murders - the south reigns supreme."

Heck, who knew Chicago, New York, and Los Angeles were in the "South"?

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-chicago-became-the-deadliest-city-in-america-2012-11?op=1

Someone get this one a geography map

Posted on Dec 27, 2012 2:57:56 PM PST
G. J. Stein says:
The sixth commandment, "Thou shalt not kill" is just one of nine other preoccupations God knew we would be prone to do, especially if we ignored Him long enough, and turned away from his stated, simple yet profound, wisdom.

Remember..."guns don't kill..."

Posted on Dec 27, 2012 3:07:25 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 27, 2012 3:08:47 PM PST
A Customer says:
Though other stats show that those southern cities of Flint and Detroit Michigan rank #1 and #2 as most dangerous cities in America.

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/most-dangerous-cities-america-832351

Another informative post from JBB, we're all learning the "new geography" here, Michigan, on the Canadian border, is in the South.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 27, 2012 3:53:47 PM PST
RKG says:
let's not forget to add:

medicine doesn't heal people
cars don't transport people

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 27, 2012 3:56:50 PM PST
RKG says:
i would be happy to take a lesson in geography as soon as you take a lesson in basic reading comprehension.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 27, 2012 3:59:51 PM PST
RKG says:
you seem to think that america is some divine place. who is this we turn away from him?

scandanavian countries, many european countries, japan have they turned to him? given that they have not turned to him and yet their societies are a lot less violent than ours...

cars don't transport ...
medicine doesn't heal...

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 27, 2012 4:16:58 PM PST
RKG says:
i wish i could compliment you and say you have learnt new reading comprehension - alas i cannot.

ah well, perhaps you can make this your resolution for the new year.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 27, 2012 4:23:01 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 27, 2012 4:24:35 PM PST
G. J. Stein says:
JJB says:
you seem to think that america is some divine place. who is this we turn away from him?

GJS: I would say it was more divine in the past...but it may be better to examine this on a personal basis, maybe a neighbor to neighbor evaluation?

scandanavian countries, many european countries, japan have they turned to him? given that they have not turned to him and yet their societies are a lot less violent than ours...

GJS: I guess you have a point, but they do compensate the OT God for other types of gods so, they claim the same ideal, only from a different source.

Posted on Dec 27, 2012 4:25:32 PM PST
RKG says:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/standard-links/region

Violent crime stats per 100,000 inhabitants:

North East: 352.1
midwest : 349.9
South: 428.8
West: 378.0

there i've helped you. don't say i've never done anything for you...

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 27, 2012 4:30:14 PM PST
RKG says:
but there is not supposed to be any other god, but the OT god is there?

and have we in america not replaced God with gods of our own making? what makes our replaced gods any less holy or less ethical inclined than what europeans and japanese have created?

when in our history were we ever more divine? america was founded on the shedding of blood and the shedding of blood continues on to this day.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 27, 2012 4:50:00 PM PST
A Customer says:
I guess we need to ask; what do cities like Detroit, Chicago, New York, and Los Angels, have in common with "the South"?

Anyway, here's another chart from your FBI link
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 27, 2012 5:26:15 PM PST
G. J. Stein says:
JJB says:
but there is not supposed to be any other god, but the OT god is there?

GJS: No there isn't. That happens to be the first of those ten commandments.

and have we in america not replaced God with gods of our own making?

GJS: Of course we have...I believe we're the most diverse with religions and religious tolerance.

what makes our replaced gods any less holy or less ethical inclined than what europeans and japanese have created?

GJS: Well, in a general sense, (like I meant it above), I think religions prove to be positive contributors to societies unless they have severe ideological flaws, the same as religious people. On a more narrow scope, they are after all, the ideals of men, and therefore subjective, and easy to manipulate. Plus most importantly, they are disobedient to the living God of the bible and disqualified from the relationship status He made His objective when Jesus died in our place.

when in our history were we ever more divine? america was founded on the shedding of blood and the shedding of blood continues on to this day.

GJS: This is an opinion, and your entitled to it, but it's simply not based in reality, given while saying such a thing, you ignore the luxury and freedom by which you can utter those words, without fear, because of the lives of so many who died to gain it for you.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 27, 2012 6:23:20 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 27, 2012 6:25:53 PM PST
Yog-Sothoth says:
JJB: "let's not forget to add:

medicine doesn't heal people
cars don't transport people"

Not by themselves. Cars need to be driven by a person, medicine needs to be taken by, or administered by a person. A car sitting in the garage, empty, or a medicine sitting on a shelf does nothing.

And, if misused by a person, a car or medicine can kill. The ESSENTIAL ingredient is the human element.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 27, 2012 7:20:44 PM PST
mrs exp says:
JJB,
I would disagree that God is the problem. Some Christian attitudes may be the problem, but not God.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 27, 2012 7:23:33 PM PST
A Customer says:
JJB, just realized that God isn't why the murder rate is higher in the South, there are other more obvious explanations, once you look at the demographics.

Posted on Dec 27, 2012 7:33:44 PM PST
libloon2 says:
Violence in America. God the Answer or the Problem.

God doesn't kill people. - People kill people.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 27, 2012 7:37:08 PM PST
A Customer says:
So anyway, JJB is saying that there are more murders in the South, she was even kind enough to give us this page to FBI stats showing the South is a little bit higher than other parts of the country;

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/standard-links/region

From this FBI site we can look at some of their other stats, like this one;

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3

And then we can look at US census data, wiki has a nice copy of their map;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.svg

Posted on Dec 27, 2012 10:57:47 PM PST
brenda musik says:
Why does everyone want to blame God when there are horrible things that happen in this world?
God has given us all free will (on par with salvation, in my opinion), man exercises that free will in horrible ways but blame man not God. We have "kicked God out of our schools, governments and everywhere else, but are quick to question him when something goes wrong.....does this really make any logical sense?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 28, 2012 5:00:00 AM PST
RKG says:
no we do not have to ask this. you may if you want to as you obviously demonstrate that you have a reading comprehension problem.

please do tell us- what is this chart suppose to tell us?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 28, 2012 5:11:51 AM PST
Joe Anthony says:
JJB says:

"scandanavian countries, many european countries, japan have they turned to [God]? given that they have not turned to him and yet their societies are a lot less violent than ours..."

I say:

...and that's your goal for America, that we become just like Europe or Japan? The Europeans and the Japanese have their own problems you know.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 28, 2012 5:12:06 AM PST
RKG says:
your posts are confusing.

you said that europeans have other gods, while at the same time claiming that there is only one God the God of the OT. If this is the case, then you are proving that the judeo/Christian concept of god is part of the problem since the European do not have him as much as we do and yet their societies are less violent. i would dispute the idea that europeans have created other gods and remain as religious as america. the opposite seems to be the case.

If religions have a positive contribution to society as you state, then why does the evidence show that more religious societies are more violent, more backwards, more possessing of hateful attitudes and negative ways of viewing the world around them?

It is not my opinion that America was founded on blood- it is history. Speak to the native Americans, speak to the buffalos that once roamed the planes, speak to African Americans whose ancestors were enslaved. America was founded on the shedding of blood.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 28, 2012 5:14:22 AM PST
RKG says:
mrs exp,

that why i also stated: "Or perhaps it is more accurate to state that it is the way that God has been packaged and has been presented in this land of ours.... that is part of the problem..."
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  23
Total posts:  170
Initial post:  Dec 27, 2012
Latest post:  Feb 10, 2013

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