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Mary Was Sinless -- Part VIII

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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 5:12:21 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 2, 2012 5:13:16 AM PST
Kevin Bold says:
Bruce, whose "Petrinophobia" prevents him from calling Peter anything but "Simon bar Jonah," has tried to convince us that the argument Paul plainly says took place in Antioch "really" happened at the council of Jerusalem, where Paul "convinced" Peter of the "evangelical truth" of "justification by faith alone."

In the Protestant jihad against Catholicism, even the words of men trump Scripture, provided those men are Protestants.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 5:26:01 AM PST
To use an analogy, Kitties, the Catholic Church is like the trunk of a tree and non-Catholic Churches are the branches off of the true. Although there were groups that broke from the Catholic Church before, the first major split was that of the East and West, the Great Schism. But that occurred approximately 1000 years after Pentecost. So for nearly half of Her existence, the Church founded by Jesus Christ has been, essentially, solely the Catholic Church. It was approximately 500 years ago (I do not have my church history book at my fingertips to get the exact date), with the Reformation, that the "Protestant" denominations began to branch off.

I choose to use the words "denomination" and "church" interchangeably, and even "congregation" from time to time, because I choose to not engage in a discussion of whether or not who is or who is not a church or a denomination or a congregation. I think it is a silly debate and discussion.

History tells us clearly which came first. There is no point in debating it.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 5:27:54 AM PST
Patricia,

RE: "Bruce, I am not a Biblical Scholar, and I sure can't speak for them, but I do believe that you have misinterpreted Peter's comments as recorded in Acts 15. Peter does not conflict with Paul."

I have posted, for Dr. Bold's benefit, links which prove "Biblical scholars" do, indeed, understand Acts 15 to be the culmination of the conflict between Paul and Peter described in Galatians 2:11-15. One of which can be found at: http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/17/17-4/17-4-pp239-242_JETS.pdf

Dr. Bold's contention is that the obvious correlation of Acts 15 and Galatians 2:11-15 was "my interpretation." I assured him, as I also do you, nothing could be further from the truth...

Grace and Peace, SIster,

S.D.G.

COMMENT: Why don't we continue this discussion over in the thread where discussion is encouraged and taking place, rather than here, in Dr. Bold's, "We Bash Protestants, Proudly," thread?

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 5:32:18 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 2, 2012 5:33:14 AM PST
Dr. Bold,

Had you ever bothered to actually read any of the scholarly research, which would make your argumentation a bit more believable, you would note the scholars are aware the discussion, which began in Antioch, culminated in Jerusalem. Largely, because Peter would not listen and accept appropriate discipline.

A problem still experienced with those engaged in "Petrinolotry." Such as, obviously, you...

Grace and Peace, Brother,

S.D.G.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 5:41:01 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 2, 2012 5:42:17 AM PST
QUESTER says:
Owned by Kitties is Keepin' The Faith Alive says:

No, Karen. We were the FIRST Church and the first Christians. The first is never a denomination.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
RAH ... RAH ... SYS ... BOOM ... BAH !!!

(Where's my pom poms ... ???)

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 5:46:28 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 2, 2012 5:49:08 AM PST
You started this discussion here, Bruce, and I will continue it here.

But, even if every Biblical Scholar in the world sees the Council of Jerusalem as being the continuation of the conflict between Paul and Peter in Galatians, the fact still remains that Peter stood with Paul in Jerusalem when the final decision was made.

Popes have the right to debate and discuss issues, and to even change their minds. It is not until there thoughts, opinions, and ideas, become official teachings through specific acts, words, and requirements does the teaching become infallible.

Final thought: I wonder where Peter's vision as described in Acts 10 and 11 falls in the chronology. Before Peter's face off with Paul in Antioch (Galatians 2:11-15) or after. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say "after." If it was indeed "after," God sent Peter a clear message that caused Peter to change his mind, recognize the error of his ways. (And, I might add, that it was not the first time that Peter had erred and had to come to grips with the error of his ways.)

I suspect that this was the Chronology: Peter was acting like a jerk and hypocrite with Gentiles, Paul calls him out on it, Peter has his dream/vision, Paul goes to Jerusalem to confront the Church leaders and have a final decision made, Peter gives his speech in support of Paul's position, the Council of Jerusalem decides and promulgates the decision that Gentiles did not have to follow Mosaic law by being circumcised and follow the dietary laws, with a couple of exceptions.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 5:50:48 AM PST
QUESTER says:
Owned by Kitties is Keepin' The Faith Alive says:

No, Karen. We were the FIRST Church and the first Christians. The first is never a denomination.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
A dubious honor, ... even if it was true ...

"Truly, truly I say unto you ... The FIRST shall be LAST, ... and the LAST shall be FIRST."

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 6:17:01 AM PST
Me too...

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 6:18:31 AM PST
"your crazy answers that hold no truth and are laughable."

You mean, like this?

http://www.amazon.com/forum/christianity/ref=cm_cd_et_md_pl?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx77WQHU8YS50Z&cdMsgID=Mx1GGXPFYM9LB8W&cdMsgNo=9985&cdPage=400&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=Tx2JU5J8294AME1#Mx1GGXPFYM9LB8W

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 6:22:13 AM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 6:22:33 AM PST
A Protestant here tried to stick that label on the Catholic Church...

And the sheeple here parroted their party line. Or rather, *baaahed* it.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 6:23:09 AM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 6:28:44 AM PST
Hmm...

Generally speaking, imo people who are very young when they leave the Church never really paid much attention to it in the first place. Seems most are just bored youth, who are easily led away by those who passively or even aggresively suggest they follow them, instead.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 6:29:12 AM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 6:30:29 AM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 6:32:24 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 2, 2012 6:42:30 AM PST
JEM says:
Bruce E. Wade says:
" That Peter was called to Jerusalem to unsuccessfully defend his Judaization of the Church was never previously questioned."

You got your persons scrambled, Bruce.
James was the judaizer, not Peter, and when James made his "decision" with the words "...WE must not trouble the gentiles...", he was talking to his group of judaizers, not to the whole assembly since the "WE" troubling the gentiles were them, not the rest of the apostles.

When Peter failed (previously) at Antioch, it was because "some from the group of James" had come and "he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group." (Gal 2:12)

Read Acts 15: 5 - "some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.""

James was a Pharisee. This is a known fact. He was actually a high priest:

Jerome's De Viris Illustribus quotes Hegesippus's account of James from the fifth book of Hegesippus's lost Commentaries:

"After the apostles, James the brother of the Lord surnamed the Just was made head of the Church at Jerusalem. Many indeed are called James. This one was holy from his mother's womb. He drank neither wine nor strong drink, ate no flesh, never shaved or anointed himself with ointment or bathed. He alone had the privilege of entering the Holy of Holies..."

Since it was unlawful for anyone but the High Priest of the Temple to enter the Holy of Holies, and then only once a year on Yom Kippur, Jerome's quotation from Hegesippus indicates that James was considered a High Priest, and thus a pharisee.

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 6:34:28 AM PST
Also, have noted that some people think that (for instance) because Mary was assumed into Heaven, this means she isn't human...

But again, we know AS SHE DID AND DOES, that it is Almighty GOD Who has done great thingS (PLURAL) for her. (Lk 1:49)

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 6:34:42 AM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 6:36:45 AM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 6:37:24 AM PST
Kevin Bold says:
Karen is simply misusing the word "denomination" the way many Protestants do, out of ignorance, not malice.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 6:39:05 AM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 6:41:22 AM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 6:41:41 AM PST
Agreed, Keepin' -

Imo, it's sad that anyone would believe and preach such rot. =(

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 6:45:36 AM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012 6:45:55 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 2, 2012 6:50:58 AM PST
Kevin Bold says:
Some Protestants suffer from a compulsion to look at Catholics in the worst possible light at all times. That's where this "We see Mary as human, you stupid Catholics don't" garbage comes from.

If that were true, and Catholics saw Mary as unfeeling, why do Catholics have a "Sorrows of Mary" devotion? And who do they think wrote the song, "The Seven Joys of Mary"?

It certainly wasn't John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, John MacArthur, Adrian Rodgers, Norman Geisler, or Joel Osteen!

The Seven Joys Of Mary
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
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Initial post:  Dec 1, 2012
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