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Jesus embodies the Unconditional Love of God for us.


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In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 1:46:02 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Nov 4, 2012 1:09:30 AM PST
I doubt it. This is a deep seated hatred that has been inoculated for generations and persists to this day.

For Mitch to be a Luther apologist and say: "Yet they were men, warts, flaws and all, called mightily by God to do great work." absolutely stuns me to the core, given Mitch's ethnicity. How can any man of God ever pen what Luther did?

As you would know yourself, publishing a book in those days was no easy feat, and it carried a lot of weight.

There is no doubt in my mind that what Luther wrote gave people the belief that what they were doing during the Holocaust was "God's work". It is no coincidence that it all started on Luther's birthday, and in accordance with what he sanctioned.

What reigned in the abuses of the Church against the Jews certainly wasn't their guilt or "divine inspiration", it was people like Napoleon who curtailed their power. It was Napoleon himself who first elevated the European Jews from being under the thumb of Christianity to achieving some form of parity by making Judaism one of France's officially recognized religions in 1807.

That act allowed Judaism in Europe to start emerging from the sewers that Christianity had forced it into.

"The net effect of his policies, as a result, significantly changed the position of the Jews in Europe, and he was widely admired by the Jews as a result. Starting in 1806, Napoleon passed a number of measures supporting the position of the Jews in the French Empire, including assembling a representative group elected by the Jewish community, the Sanhedrin. In conquered countries, he abolished laws restricting Jews to ghettos. In 1807, he made Judaism, along with Roman Catholicism and Lutheran and Calvinist Protestantism, official religions of France. Napoleon rolled back a number of reforms in 1808 (so-called décret infâme of March 17, 1808), declaring all debts with Jews annulled, reduced or postponed, which caused the Jewish community to nearly collapse. Jews were also restricted in where they could live, in hopes of assimilating them into society. These restrictions were eliminated again by 1811."

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 5:02:08 AM PST
Rolling Stones,

There is a strain of thought that we must judge others by the times they lived in. While there may be some truth to that idea, it certainly doesn't address why Christianity didn't make the people of those times better, and the resulting times in which they lived. Christianity had been around for hundreds of years. If it is truth, why wasn't society better as a result? Of course, I think all religion is basically false. The Torah has some pretty abominable ethics in it as well. It certainly doesn't contain anything approaching the topic of this discussion, namely, unconditional love. I think it is better to leave all that theism behind. It has a long history of dividing people on the most ridiculous of grounds, and has a long history of making things worse.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 5:21:25 AM PST
Joe Anthony says:
Epistem Quest says:

"I think it is better to leave all that theism behind. It has a long history of dividing people on the most ridiculous of grounds, and has a long history of making things worse."

I say:

I almost don't want to respond because we previously enjoyed a pleasant discourse on John Wayne movies and I wouldn't want to mess up our rapport by talking about as divisive a topic as is religion.

Even so; in regard to history, I can't see how you could know whether history would be better or worse without religion unless you had an alternate world with an alternate history of the world sans religion with which to compare our own very messed up world.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 6:24:03 AM PST
Joe Anthony,

Don't ever worry about ruining a rapport. We are strangers to one another. Even friends should speak frankly to one another. In one sense, you are right, I don't have a view of alternate realities, or what might have been. What I do know is the Jews were treated terribly throughout Christian history. Let me give just one example. The Fourth Lateran Council of 1215 prohibited Jews from appearing in public on certain Christian holidays. They could not hold public office. In addition, they had to dress differently from Christians so they could be readily identified as Jews. In bringing this back to the topic of this discussion, this certainly is not an example of unconditional love. It doesn't even qualify as "Golden Rule" behavior. Health and happiness to you.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 6:47:22 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 4, 2012 8:30:50 AM PST
TN says:
Unconditional Love is a myth, a self-illusion, or a lie, depending on whose POV.

1) a myth, because it's not documented in the bible. OTOH, God would destroy the wicked some day, i.e. conditional love.

2) a self-illusion: people INVENT that concept in their mind, perhaps out of their desire for "going to heaven"

3) a lie: priests perpetuate it to attract followers to their church, for eventual donations.

Posted on Nov 4, 2012 6:47:38 AM PST
It is in great sorrow that we hear of the suffering of
the Chosen People, His People, the Jews.

So remarkable that in their strength they survived,
that they thrived, in spite of their persecution.

Through these words spoken here we can see that
perhaps, "we have come a long way," with yet more
steps to be taken on the road to become fully human,
to become the people He wants us to be.

Posted on Nov 4, 2012 8:11:38 AM PST
Kind greetings to anyone reading this,

I believe that Jesus absolutely embodies the unconditional love of God for us. This is clearly exemplified in the crucifixion whereby Jesus sacrificed himself to cover over the sins of humankind and save us from death. He paid the penalty for us. This enables us to go to heaven if we believe in Jesus whereas we wouldn't be able to otherwise because of our separation from God. God sacrificed his son for us because he loved us so much. This is beautiful for sure...

But there is even more to this, much more, I believe, that shows striking evidence that confirms this. To see it, lets take a close look at the crucifixion scene and study it for a moment. Look at the many paintings by the masters from throughout history of this scene and you will see some trends. One major trend is that if you, in your minds eye, take Jesus off the cross and rotate the cross by 45 degrees, you will see that the cross and Jesus make the letters X and Y, which is very, very curious indeed. It is very curious since X and Y are the shape of the Chromosomes of man. Recall that Pontius Pilate introduced Jesus as 'Ecce Homo' which means 'Behold The Man.' Jesus also calls himself the 'Son of Man.' Well the crucifix also makes the shape of the Chromosomes of Man! No wonder! I believe that the crucifix is an archetype, left by the Lord for us to see when we were mature enough as a species to see it. I believe, it is depicting the Chromosomes of Man being redeemed! The essence of Man and all life is in our Chromosomes and DNA! It is showing humankind being redeemed so that we would not be made extinct. It is the key moment in the history of the entire Earth and, I dare to say, it is the key moment in the history of our Galaxy. God so loved us and His creation!

I believe the above is a major spiritual discovery. So sure I am of this that I have written a book entitled The Master of Evolution: An Illustrated Voyage of Truth and Light that shows this and much, much more. I invite anyone to take a look: The Master of Evolution: An Illustrated Voyage of Truth and Light Jesus really truly, is the Son of God and is God's love for us! He really is the Savior!

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 8:23:17 AM PST
Anne Rice says:
Very informative and appreciated.

It is difficult for me to admire Martin Luther. I can concede that he
had a huge effect on the history of religion.
But admire him? I cannot.

One of the ironies of religious history is that
Luther and Calvin are now held to be "saints" by some Protestants
and viewed apparently as "infallible."
I doubt this is something either man would have wanted.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 8:26:18 AM PST
Anne Rice says:
I think you ask a valid question about Christianity. Why didn't it make
society better? And I think that religion did not make society better.
The world of the West today was made possible in large part by
the Enlightenment and the fact that people everywhere stood up against
Christian dictatorships in many forms.

If some Christians achieved government control today, there are clear
indications they would go back to jailing and executing those who disagree with them,
as they did in the past.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 8:30:28 AM PST
Anne Rice says:
I maintain that God's love is unconditional.
We cannot know how God will judge any individual
after death.
But I believe the Bible does indeed support the picture of
a God who loves unconditionally. God never abandons his people
in the O.T. He speaks to Cain after Cain sins. He modified Cain's punishment
apparently at Cain's request.
Over and over the God of Israel interacts with people on all levels and offers
them forgiveness time and time and time again.

Jesus told people they are to forgive seventy times seven times....or
to never stop forgiving.

This is unconditional love.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 8:31:29 AM PST
Anne Rice says:
Interesting post. Thanks.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 8:36:00 AM PST
TN says:
How many times did the Israelites' God punish them when they commit spiritual fornication or crimes against his laws ans covenants? More often than what He did towards good kings.

Why the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians in 607 BCE and again by Titus on 70 CE? Haven't we learned something from those two events?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 8:47:13 AM PST
"I believe that the crucifix is an archetype, left by the Lord for us to see when we were mature enough as a species to see it. I believe, it is depicting the Chromosomes of Man being redeemed! The essence of Man and all life is in our Chromosomes and DNA!" --- Gregory Hatton

Gregory,

So interesting that you say this. Quantum Physics is now finding that
we humans communicate, send and receive, through our DNA.

They are even beginning to suggest that human DNA is our link to the
Cosmos, to the Universal Mind, to the Mind of God.

Science and religion are truly "coming together" in extraordinary,
unheard of ways. Have you heard of the experiment with protons
in a container, having random motion, random activity, as expected?

Then, the scientists placed human DNA in the container. The protons,
formerly random, aligned along the spiral of the human DNA. Then,
astoundingly, when the DNA was removed, the protons MAINTAINED
THEIR ALIGNMENT in the formation of the DNA structure!

The postulation is "we communicate with the universe through our
DNA!

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 8:51:41 AM PST
Anne Rice says:
Apparently, we've learned different things from those two events.
I see no evidence of God withdrawing his unconditional love from
the Jews or from all the peoples of the earth.
A parent who punishes a child does not cease to love it.

The Jews are the oldest monotheistic people in the world.
The story of their survival and endurance is unique in history.
I know of no rational or historical explanation for their survival and
perseverance. Perhaps this is a reflection of the unconditional love of God.


Myself, I don't think anything can be "proven" about God one way or
the other.
I see evidence of the unconditional love of God everywhere I look in
this world. I believe that the unconditional love of God sustains the universe, that is
always there, flowing out from God towards His creation.

But if this is not a useful way for you to speak about God or to draw close to
God, that's fine with me.

I offer my thoughts as meditation.

I have observed that it is very difficult to talk about God without limiting Him or
defining Him in human terms. I think we all face that problem when we speculate about
God.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 8:55:24 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 4, 2012 8:56:11 AM PST
TN says:
The biblical God's love IS conditional upon the rigorous obedience to his laws/covenants.

Those who disobeyed got destroyed, kings, knaves, or not, without any possibility of resurrection.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 9:01:02 AM PST
Anne Rice says:
If that works for you, fine.
I don't see anything in the bible to support the notion that
anyone is without the possibility of resurrection.

I trust in God and in God's love.

Posted on Nov 4, 2012 9:18:28 AM PST
Anne Rice says:
Isaiah 49:15-16
"Can a mother forget her nursing child? Can she feel no love for the child she has borne? But even if that were possible, I would not forget you! See, I have written your name on the palms of my hands." (NLT)

Posted on Nov 4, 2012 9:19:41 AM PST
Anne Rice says:
Luke 12: 6-7 "Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows." (KJV)

Posted on Nov 4, 2012 9:21:15 AM PST
Anne Rice says:
Psalm 139:13 -14, 17, 18
"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand." (NIV)

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 9:22:09 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 4, 2012 9:48:43 AM PST
Hi Barbara,

Thanks so much for your notes. What you are saying, I believe, is true. In a chapter of my book, entitled, The Life Spectrum, I show how DNA was created from a ray of light - all the data that makes up the DNA was encapsulated in the wave. Here, I show that DNA molecules are in the same shape (geometry) as a special kind of electromagnetic lightwave called circularly polarized waves. This is very, very interesting since the Bible says that 'God is Light!' The Bible also says that 'God made man in his image, male and female He created them.' So this is another major spiritual discovery. We really, truly are made in the image of God! DNA, Light and God are connected. God communicated his image of us through his word through lightwaves to formed us. The lightwave acted as a template for the formation of our DNA. And I believe we communicate with God through our DNA too.

Once again, I look back to the crucifix, the crucifix is depicting God's unconditional love for us in that he would give his son to save us and the crucifix is actually a representation of us. God created us, our DNA, using light and DNA is coiled up in chromosomes. Jesus really, truly is the savior of us. God's unconditional love for us.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 9:34:31 AM PST
TN says:
Adam will not be resurrected. He sinned. His punishment was returning to dust. End of story. OTOH Enoch will be or has been resurrected.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 9:43:04 AM PST
Anne Rice says:
Well, that is one interesting and rather eccentric opinion. I believe,
though I may be mistaken, that millions of Christians wouldn't agree
with you on this.

Since I don't believe in a literal Adam or a literal Enoch, it does not move me very much, except on the level of idea.

And of course many Christians posting here don't accept the Book of Enoch, since it's not in the canon, so we get some interesting responses on this.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 9:54:41 AM PST
TN,

You say, "The biblical God's love IS conditional upon the rigorous obedience to his laws/covenants."

Do you tie yourself in knots wondering if you are pleasing to your "heavenly father?" Are you really sure your "God" loves you? Have you met all the conditions?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 10:02:39 AM PST
Philip, No contradiction at all, for indeed, after all, Jesus, Who is God, established the Catholic Religion built on Peter the rock in which His manifold Wisdom is revealed. Peace always in the Most Precious Blood of Christ

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 4, 2012 10:03:26 AM PST
Anne Rice, You are a good fiction writer, but not well versed in Holy Scripture. Jesus is indeed prefigured in the old testament, as the one promised to crush the head of satan. (Genesis 3:15, Matthew 1:21, 1 John 3:8), as the promised Perfect passover lamb to atone for sin. Genesis 22:8, Exodus 12:7, Isaiah 53;10,12, John 1:29, 1 Peter 1:19, Matthew 26;28) as the other sacrifices to atone for sin were imperfect. (Leviticus 4:32). Indeed, Jesus our God was kind enough to warn us of the reality of Hell, same as in the old testament, for those who do evil and show no remorse. (Daniel 12;2, Malachi 4;1, Matthew 25;42, John 5;29). Also, Paul and Jesus preached the same Message. You bear fasle witness saying they differed. (Matthew 19:17, Romans 2:13, Ephesians 5;5,6, Galatians 5;19,20,21, Romans 2:8,9, Hebrews 10:26). Peace always in the Most Precious Blood of Jesus our Great God and Saviour
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
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Initial post:  Oct 17, 2012
Latest post:  Jan 20, 2013

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