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Customer Discussions > Christianity forum

Does the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ prove that the doctrine of the Trinity is false?


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Showing 101-125 of 183 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on Dec 17, 2012 9:09:08 PM PST
DoC BiC says:
LDS,
Actually your wife directly contributed the "dust of the earth" part to most of their formation during gestation via her diet, but I won't belabor the point...and even though their shells may have been "formed" in your physical image, their spirits were formed in God's image.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 17, 2012 9:11:36 PM PST
DoC BiC says:
LDS,
By inference, are you trying to limit God's unlimited abilities?

Stephen saw what God wanted Stephen to see, nothing more, nothing less.

Posted on Dec 17, 2012 10:09:58 PM PST
DoC BiC says:
Just to be sure that my long-held impression was correct that God never vacates His throne in Heaven, I reviewed the scriptures again. Granted, it was fast & furious, so if any of you think otherwise, please assist me in my impression.
Otherwise, I will continue another day with my impression that:
A. God forever sits upon His throne in Heaven, for Heaven is His throne (Isa 66:1; Matt 5:34; Acts 7:49)
B. God created and progresses His creation with His Word and His Spirit,
C. God visits and engages His creation as the Word of God,
D. God visits and engages His creation as the Spirit of God.
E. The Word of God and the Spirit of God dwell as One with God the Father.

Acknowledging the limitations of our words, and reverently not conjecturing the "how" of it all, is wisdom.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 5:16:19 AM PST
LDSareChristian says:
<<Matthew L. Broderick's post:
same God, yet different manifestations.
==n =============================
How does that work? Christ his own Father?>>

As I have stated in other messages, I recall reading the following view of the Trinity (It may have been in Hans Kung's book On Being a Christian ). I am summarizing from memory.
1. God the Father can be viewed as God the Creator.
2. God the Son (the divine nature of Jesus) can be viewed as the direct intervention of God in human history through Jesus of Nazareth.
3. God the Holy Spirit can be viewed as the interaction of God with each individual.

Posted on Dec 18, 2012 8:21:52 AM PST
DoC BiC says:
Twas' 11 days before Christmas, around 9:38,

when 20 beautiful children stormed through heaven's gate.

Their smiles were contagious, their laughter filled the air.

They could hardly believe all the beauty they saw there.

They were filled with such joy, they didn't know what to say.

They remembered nothing of what had happened earlier that day.

"Where are we?" asked a little girl, as quiet as a mouse.

"This is heaven." declared a small boy. "We're spending Christmas at God's house."

When what to their wondering eyes did appear,

But Jesus, their Savior, the children gathered near.

He looked at them and smiled, and they smiled just the same.

Then He opened His arms and He called them by name.

And in that moment was joy, that only Heaven can bring,

those children all flew into the arms of their King.

And as they lingered in the warmth of His embrace,

one small girl turned and looked at Jesus' face.

And as if He could read all the questions she had,

He gently whispered to her, "I'll take care of Mom and Dad."

Then He looked down on earth, the world far below.

He saw all of the hurt, the sorrow, and woe.

Then He closed His eyes and He outstretched His hand,

"Let My power and presence re-enter this land!"

"May this country be delivered from the hands of fools",

"I'm taking back my nation. I'm taking back my schools!"

Then He and the children stood up without a sound.

"Come now my children, let Me show you around."

Excitement filled the space, some skipped and some ran,

all displaying enthusiasm that only a small child can.

And I heard Him proclaim as He walked out of sight,

"in the midst of this darkness, I AM STILL THE LIGHT."

Written by Cameo Smith, Mt. Wolf, PA

Posted on Dec 18, 2012 12:32:58 PM PST
DoC BiC says:
2 Corinthians 5:1-4 (AMP)
For we know that if the tent which is our earthly home is destroyed (dissolved), we have from God a building, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Here indeed, in this [present abode, body], we sigh and groan inwardly, because we yearn to be clothed over [we yearn to put on our celestial body like a garment, to be fitted out] with our heavenly dwelling, so that by putting it on we may not be found naked (without a body). For while we are still in this tent, we groan under the burden and sigh deeply (weighed down, depressed, oppressed)-not that we want to put off the body (the clothing of the spirit), but rather that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal (our dying body) may be swallowed up by life [[a]after the resurrection].

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 2:38:33 PM PST
LDS, It works like this; God The Eternal Father sent God the Eternal Son to assume our humanity, and by the power of God the Eternal Spirit, He became man. "Let US make man in OUR image". (Genesis 1:26, John 1:1). Peace always in the Most Precious Blood of christ

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 6:36:14 PM PST
DoC BiC's post:
LDS,
By inference, are you trying to limit God's unlimited abilities?
==============================
Nope. From my viewpoint, God having a Physical body is part of what makes him unlimited.

Brother Niv

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 6:40:50 PM PST
DoC BiC's post:
Just to be sure that my long-held impression was correct that God never vacates His throne in Heaven,
==========================
Humm, interesting... then if God ALWAYS stays at his throne, then who is the Spirit of God that comes to earth to engage with us? Is proof of two/three separate and distinct beings.

Brother Niv

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 6:50:34 PM PST
Thank you for Cameo Smith's writing.

The writer clearly illustrates......

10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/137?lang=eng

Brother Niv

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 6:57:12 PM PST
Matthew L. Broderick's post:
LDS, It works like this; God The Eternal Father sent God the Eternal Son to assume our humanity, and by the power of God the Eternal Spirit, He became man. "Let US make man in OUR image".
=====================
Yep, one being called God the Father, sent another being, called his Son, to earth to obtain a body like his and a third being, the Holy Spirit, comforted his Son.

Brother Niv

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 7:47:13 PM PST
DoC BiC says:
Hmmm....I guess in sort of a convoluted way I can see that...after all, it does enable the Christ to physically sense the physical world, not having it shut out to Him....BUT, you may need to meditate on the glorification aspect of it all with Him leaving and coming into the physical realm.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 7:50:33 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 18, 2012 7:59:08 PM PST
DoC BiC says:
LDS,
Not at all, it's only proof of our severely restricted insight into God's mysteries, especially of His nature and how He capitalizes on it. When faced with this, we fall back on the scriptures, firmly establish what is evident from them, then accept what we can't yet know beyond that.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 7:57:59 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 18, 2012 7:59:57 PM PST
DoC BiC says:
LDS,
YES HE DID!!!
PTL!!!

Maybe it would have been better for them if many of the atheists and agnostics had benefitted earlier in their lives from that escape clause, before they were accountable:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 8:15:27 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 18, 2012 8:15:57 PM PST
LDS, Indeed, God the Eternal Father, sent God the Eternal Son to assume our humanity, and thus by the power of God the Eternal Spirit, He became man. "Let US make man in OUR image". (Genesis 1:26, Matthew 28:19,20). Peace always in the Triune God

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 9:16:20 PM PST
DoC BiC's post:
When faced with this, we fall back on the scriptures, firmly establish what is evident from them, then accept what we can't yet know beyond that.
===========================
Yep.

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other-This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng

23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father-
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76.22?lang=eng#21

;-)

Brother Niv

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 9:24:31 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 18, 2012 9:25:03 PM PST
Yes indeed, Praise the Lord!

10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach-repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.
11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.
12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/8?lang=eng

You may find the entire chapter of interest.

Brother Niv

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 9:25:59 PM PST
DoC BiC says:
I wonder what we'll talk about in Heaven once we know all the answers?
<B^)>

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 9:42:17 PM PST
Yes, our mortal physical bodies will die and return to dust from which they are made. But in the resurrection, our spirits will be clothed with immortal bodies, glorified, perfected, eternal. We'll have immortal bodies like God.

Brother Niv

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 9:44:52 PM PST
Creating the next generation to teach those answers to...... ;-)

Brother Niv

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 9:58:19 PM PST
DoC BiC says:
LDS,
Now that's better than your earlier "physical" bodies....you're moving towards the Light...

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 11:14:01 PM PST
DoC BiC,
Sorry about that. I should have expanded upon the sole earlier term of "physical" with all the other verbs! ;-)

For the record, LDS believe that God the Father has a physical, glorified, perfected, immortal body. This in no way limits him, rather it adds to his divinity.
We all existed as Spirits in heaven before this earth was created, and it was arranged that we would come to earth, gain a physical body, die and be resurrected unto a perfect, glorified, immortal physical body like our Heavenly Father. Jesus Christ's birth, sacrifice, and resurrection was the enabling key for all this to happen.
We see God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit as three separate entities, who are one in the same way they encourage all us separate entities to be one with them.
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

The above is not to encourage any further argument. But just the facts on how 14million LDS believe. We see the scriptures fully supporting the above. I realize you interpreted them different. So be it.

Yours in Christ,

Brother Niv

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 18, 2012 11:47:07 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 19, 2012 12:21:39 AM PST
Observation:
- -
Harold Swanson says:

See original post.
- -
San Diego answer:

Any time after inception of incarnation you read a passage where Christ is talking (physically) you have to determine whether he is talking from his (Deity) from his (humanity) or from his (Hypostatic Union).

One example (each) follows:

(Deity) cannot be restricted to one place in universe and cannot thirst so following is reality. When Christ makes statement "I Thirst" is talking from "humanity" only.

When Christ talks to Scribes & Pharisees and comments:

Jhn 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw [it] and was glad."
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

Response of religious unbelievers as follows:

Jhn 8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"

Religious unbelievers making above comment are in same negative status as Nicodemus, when he came to chat with Christ by night. I.E. they are without a "human spirit" as such cannot recognize God happens (also) be standing in front of them (Hypostatic Union reality).

When religious unbelievers comment "you are not yet fifty years old" they are correct (as far as they can "see"). But their understanding of reality is insufficient (whereas Abrahams understanding of reality [since he was "born again"] was full. That being why Christ made comment "Abraham rejoiced to see My day". I.E. time has no bearing with members of Trinity and also (positionally) has no bearing with members of human race (such as Abraham) who are currently living physically and are also "born again".

In above interaction religious unbelievers were "only half right" (which does not suffice when dealing with Lord (title of Deity), Jesus (title of humanity), Christ (title of Messiah or Savior function).

In above comment of:

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

Christ is talking from his Deity only.

And when (third example) Christ makes the following statement:

Mat 11:28 "Come to Me, all [you] who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Above Christ is talking from his "Hypostatic Union" I.E. God and man in one person.

And below conversing with Moses (prior to incarnation).

Christ is talking from his Deity only,

Exd 3:14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you."

Same "I AM" as talking in Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

"Individual" (Lord Jesus Christ) is different from other two members of Trinity in that he is also "true humanity" and different from all members of human race in that he is also "Absolute Deity" in one person forever. In other words "any" human rational or "any" satanic rational does not have ability to deal with reality of who and what individual known as "Lord Jesus Christ" is in all his status and functions etc. As detailed by following statements,

Isa 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Where monikers of "Son", "Child" refer to his humanity, monikers "Wonderful", "Counselor", "Mighty God", "Everlasting Father" refer to his Deity, and monikers "Immanuel", "Prince of Peace" refer to his Hypostatic Union.

"Checkmate" Christ used to "put" religious unbelievers in their place.

Mat 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,

Mat 22:42 saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" They said to Him, "[The Son] of David."

Mat 22:43 He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him 'LORD,' saying:

Mat 22:44 'The LORD said to my LORD, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool?"

Mat 22:45 "If David then calls Him 'LORD,' how is He his Son?"

Mat 22:46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore.

For brevity and fact this subject has been addressed in prior posts will only deal with several verses (out of the whole conversation of Jn. 3:1 thru Jhn 3:21). If a reader of this post is not conversant with whole passage then advisable you read it.

Jhn 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Jhn 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?
Jhn 3:11 "Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.

Above details an individual who is not "born again" will not "see" (in this context if individual does not "see" then they will not understand). Illustrated by Nicodemus response:

Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
Jhn 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"

Notice "Nicci" boy above (a smart "old" man) is thoroughly schooled, knows entire O.T. by memory along with "full" understanding of original language, and still has no clue as to what Christ is talking about. Even while they are conversing in common primary language belonging to each.

Above details following reality. If any individual is not "born again" i.e. has no "human spirit" (if they are just an unbeliever with only an immortal soul & human body) as opposed to a believer who is "born again" (who has an immortal soul, human body and a "human spirit"). Then unbeliever will not understand meaning of and content/substance of Canon.

Stated above there are three persons in Godhead. If you want you can use 1, 2 & 3 or just for grins 3, 2 & 1. In Canon (since it is written to mankind) a language of "accommodation" of necessity has to be used so mankind can wrap their thinking around a subject innately foreign to them. So God uses "Father, Son & Holy Spirit" to set forth differentiation of "function" that they have tasked themselves with when dealing with humans.

God the Father plans it.
When "Father" is used is merely language of accommodation so members of human race can distinguish between three separate but coequal individuals.

God the Son executes it.
When word "Son" is used it refers only to humanity of Christ - not his Deity - again more language of accommodation for humans to wrap their head around a reality that they do not run into every day.

God the Holy Spirit reveals and empowers.
Again language of accommodation - when Koine Greek original language of Canon uses "He" in reference to this member of Trinity it does so because the "individuals" functioning status. Again language of accommodation i.e. only "one" God.

Why "all" following factual statements are "singular".

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That [there is] none besides Me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] no other;

Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I [am] the First and I [am] the Last; Besides Me [there is] no God.

Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: "I [am] the LORD, who makes all [things], Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;

Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, And created man on it. I--My hands--stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded.

Isa 45:22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I [am] God, and [there is] no other.

All Christians you are in conversation with on these Amazon conversation threads are currently in union (positionally) with three members of Trinity. When Christians receive resurrection bodies then "experiential" aspect of below will be finalized.

Jhn 17:21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, [are] in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Now you know why "exact" words in Koine Greek conversation between Jesus Christ (i.e. God) and "Saul" a religious unbeliever below take place (read carefully) and detail reality.

Act 9:4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
Act 9:5 And he said, "Who are You, LORD?" Then the LORD said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It [is] hard for you to kick against the goads."

Following realities are functional when reading Canon in original languages.

Jew's picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

"We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Jhn 10:30 "I and [My] Father are one."

Jhn 14:8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."

Jhn 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Mat 22:32; 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Mat 8:29 And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"

Mar 1:24 saying, "Let [us] alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are--the Holy One of God!"
- -
Mar 5:6 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him.
Mar 5:7 And he cried out with a loud voice and said, "What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God that You do not torment me."
Mar 5:8 For He said to him, "Come out of the man, unclean spirit!"
Mar 5:9 Then He asked him, "What [is] your name?" And he answered, saying, "My name [is] Legion; for we are many."
- -
Luk 4:34 saying, "Let [us] alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are--the Holy One of God!"

Glancing at above remember following realities of original language & time line function of Canon.

Any time "worship" is legitimately expressed it is toward "God" only.
Any other direction and it falls under heading of blasphemy (in its technical Canon context - not that of English dictionaries).

Why you have following "eyewitness testimonial":

Mat 9:2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you."
Mat 9:3 And at once some of the scribes said within themselves, "This Man blasphemes!"
Mat 9:4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?
Mat 9:5 "For which is easier, to say, '[Your] sins are forgiven you,' or to say, 'Arise and walk'?
Mat 9:6 "But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"--then He said to the paralytic, "Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house."

Mar 2:7 "Why does this [Man] speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
Luk 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
Luk 5:24 "But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"--He said to the man who was paralyzed, "I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house."

Summery of above:

1. Only God forgive sins.

2. Only God accept legitimate worship.

3. Only God (or a human by proxy) can raise physically dead.

4. Only God is recognized as being one entity in universe who has authority and jurisdiction to consign demons to final verdict (issued in eternity past) of Hell.

5. I.E. Luk 12:5 "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!

2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast [them] down to hell and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Below "Legion" of roughly 2000 demons give "expert eyewitness testimony" as to who, what, when, where, why, how, etc the individual known as Lord Jesus Christ happens to be.

Luk 4:34 saying, "Let [us] alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are--the Holy One of God!"
- - -
QUESTER comment: Where did Jesus say that He was given the authority to forgive sin?

Where "reality" of both Koine Greek (and English) details (not "given" authority) but rather "innate" positional reality (from Hypostatic Union functioning), below.

Mat 9:6 "But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"--then He said to the paralytic, "Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house."

Mar 2:10 "But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"--He said to the paralytic,

Luk 5:24 "But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"--He said to the man who was paralyzed, "I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house."

Any time demons or satan interact with Christ they are forced to acknowledge his status as God.

Reason "Legion" of demons were forced to answer way they did.

Conversation satan has with Christ below verse is in "first class condition" of Koine Greek:

Mat 4:3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."

Those of you who do not speak (understand) Koine Greek a correct translation of above "Greek first class condition" verse into English would have acknowledgement from satan "and you are God" as a necessary clause.

In Judea 2000 years ago, when statement is made "son of" it is same as being that person mentioned (in English today usage of "son" means progeny, not so in usage 2000 years ago).

Practical example of above is "Ben Hur" Jewish galley slave saves life of Roman Aristocrat who "adopts" Jew. Subsequent reality being all Roman citizens/military members (who condemned Jew to slavery in beginning of film) have to interact with "Jew" Ben Hur as if they were interacting with his "Father" (i.e. one and same person).

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 7:32:07 AM PST
DoC BiC says:
LDS,
Ha! Do you realize how much time you could have saved me in not researching and responding to that limited statement?
But, it's ok, I enjoyed every bit of the self-study.
We are much closer in our personal impressions and visualizations now.
<B^)>

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 19, 2012 5:27:49 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 19, 2012 5:31:33 PM PST
G J Stein & DOC:

Hi, I've read both of your posts to me and, correct me if I'm wrong, but you both seem to believe that Christ is no longer physical but is a spirit since He returned to heaven.

G. J., you said: "As God in flesh He could not live 'in' us so He had to go back to where He came from and return as the Spirit 'in' us!!!"

DOC, you said: "For anyone to exist in this world, the physical shell is a necessity. It enables a spiritual being to physically sense taste, smell, touch, hearing and seeing in the limited way that we engage this world... Yet, their transition back into the spiritual realm has absolutely no requirement for the faculties of a physical body.

Again, as I hinted earlier, when considering the Trinity doctrine, focus on the Spirit, and the spiritual realm, not the physical body, and this world as we know it." End Quotes

If I did understand you correctly and you do believe that Christ is spirit and is no longer physical because He is now in heaven; I HAVE TO FIRMLY STATE THAT I DISAGREE WITH YOU. Let me explain why...

Jesus Christ lived and was a spirit before He was born. When He was born (the Christmas story), He was no longer just a spirit, but was a spirit within a body of flesh and bones.

When He died on the cross His body and spirit separated, this is physical death. His body was placed in the tomb and His spirit lived on and He did what He did for three days. On the third day He was physically resurrected. His living spirit and His body from the tomb were reunited (the Easter story).

In His physical resurrected body of flesh and bones, with the prints of the nails in His hands and feet, He visited many. He had visits to His apostles.

36 ¶And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them. (Luke 24: 36-43).

About a week later...

24 ¶But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 ¶And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. (John 20: 24-28).

In Acts 1: 9-11 Jesus ascends into heaven with His physical body of flesh and bones, and He, to this day, has and will forever have HIS PHYSICAL BODY OF FLESH AND BONES, because He will never, ever die again.

Physical death IS THE SEPARATION OF THE BODY AND THE SPIRIT.

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2: 26)

This is what Paul had to say about Christ never dying again:

"9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. (Romans 6: 9-10).

Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and He will never, ever die again. He's physical resurrected body and spirit will never, ever be separated again. THEREFORE, JESUS CHRIST CANNOT BE A SPIRIT TODAY.

Jesus Christ is immortal; He will never, ever physically die again and become a spirit again. Jesus Christ will forever have His physical body of flesh and bones IN HEAVEN.

This is why the Trinity doctrine is so dangerous, because it teaches that God is a spirit and is made up of three persons who would each have to be spirit in order for the one god to be a spirit. Very quietly the Trinity doctrine implies that Jesus Christ DIED A SECOND TIME.

IF JESUS CHIST DIED A SECOND TIME THEN HIS ATONEMENT FAILED.

17 And if Christ be not raised [and stay raised], your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. (1 Cor. 15: 17).

Jesus Christ conquered physical death; it has "no more dominion over Him." His atonement and resurrection are ininite and eternal. It is not a part time event, dead one minute, alive again, then dead again, and so on.

His physical body is not a handicap. His physical resurrected body has propelled Him to great glory with the Father. For this purpose He came to earth; to do the will of the Father.

Jesus Christ died once on the cross, but He will never, ever die again. For Jesus Christ to be a spirit again is for Jesus Christ to die again.

For His physical body and spirit body to be separated again is for Christ to return to the state of physical death that He was in for the three days. Why would He want to go backwards??? Why even have a resurrection???

Jesus Christ is immortal. He will always have His physical body. If Jesus Christ is a spirit today then He died a second time and is living in a state of physical death.

This will never happen.

Because of the eternal, immortal, physical resurrection of Jesus Christ; of which I base my faith; it is my position, and the position of others, that the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ forever changed the nature of the Godhead and proves the doctrine of the Trinity to be flawed.

The doctrine of the Trinity cannot be true because this spirit god is made up of three persons who are not made up of "one spirit substance" there are two substances: SPIRIT and FLESH AND BONES!!!

Jesus Christ has a physical body of flesh and bones in heaven today.
We have the words of the PHYSICAL, RESURRECTED SAVIOR years after His ascension into heaven.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. (Rev. 1: 17-18)

The Savior says that He was dead, but now is alive for evermore. He is telling us, Himself, that He will never die again.

If I did misunderstand you guys, I beg your pardon.

Harold
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  19
Total posts:  183
Initial post:  Dec 15, 2012
Latest post:  Jan 8, 2013

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