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Moral decay in America


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Posted on May 25, 2012 10:41:45 AM PDT
NeoPaganBaby says:
dischism: God can't be in the presence of sin, but they also say he's omnipresent, which means that he's *everywhere*
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Or optionally *not* omnipresent and almost nowhere.

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 10:44:32 AM PDT
Craig says:
Wow, what a model Christian you are.

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 10:51:33 AM PDT
dischism says:
I hear some Christians say that they are miserable sinners, but are saved by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, because they've been born again. Again, this seems irreconcilable with God (I'm not terribly sure how this works, but don't they say that the Holy Spirit a manifestation of God?) not being able to be in the presence of sin.

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 11:00:22 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 25, 2012 11:00:54 AM PDT
Craig says:
Next time someone says that God can not be in the presence of sin, ask for scripture reference to prove it. I've heard that before too but I don't think it is scriptural. What I find to be interesting is that 1 John says:
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
1 John 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

These verses contradict each other.

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 11:31:59 AM PDT
dischism says:
Thanks, Craig, I will.

Those verses do contradict each other, definitely.

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 11:52:37 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 25, 2012 11:54:58 AM PDT
JJB says:
i have heard this said as well which doesn't make sense - coz lucifer who imo is the personification of sin ,goes into God's presence to give an update of his shenanigans often enough, according to job, .

it comes down to one simple thing that i can see - we have ascribed certain characteristics to God and they must be held to no matter how contradictory everything else may prove them to be. instead of saying i don't know - silly and sometimes downright stupid explanations are given and held to.

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 11:53:54 AM PDT
JJB says:
aha, but when sin sees the Holy Spirit coming it runs away. so the Holy Spirit is never really in sin's presence

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 3:02:28 PM PDT
Spinoza says:
JJB says:

ohhhh pot holes- i forgot about those. how i could, i don't know... i shall make a note of the potholes so i can go grab me some stones when needed.

thanks for the reminder...

Spinoza says:

No problem, JJB. You never know. Bloomberg might reinstate stoning as a penalty for double parking. :-)

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 3:09:37 PM PDT
Vicki says:
Dear dischism,

You said :"This is something I really don't understand. I hear some Christians say that God can't be in the presence of sin, but they also say he's omnipresent, which means that he's *everywhere*, including hell. These two statements are irreconcilable as far as I can see."

I have heard some Christians say that God can't be in the presence of sin, too. I'm not sure what they mean by that, so maybe someone else can explain it and I'll be interested in reading what they have to say about it.

When I mentioned that sin separates us from God, that doesn't mean that God doesn't know where we are, since He is present to all His Creation (being omniscient).

When the Bible tells stories of humans called to God's throne (whether in visions or in actuallity, I'm not sure) they are very conscious of their own sin and God's holiness. It appears that the human's sin must be propitiated, when they find themselves in God's presence. When I read those accounts, it seems to me that the propitiation of sin is for the benefit of the human being, so that they can be in God's presence- not so much for God to be in the sinful human's presence.

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 3:13:46 PM PDT
dischism says:
Thanks, Vicki, I knew you would explain your view patiently. I just chose the wrong person to ask.:)

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 3:17:57 PM PDT
Vicki says:
Dear Mark,

You said :"God created hell, no? So if he offers a "solution," which is himself made man, it is only to a situation that he himself decided upon."

That's right. God knew that humanity would fall so He decided on the solution before He created us.

You said :"I'm not "dumbfounded". I just don't find Christianity, or the bible, all that moral. Nothing here is really all that complex. These are not deep and subtle ideas."

Of course you don't find Christianity to be moral. You have a moral code that is based on different values from Christianity.

You asked :"What is "it"? I won't pretend that there is a clear moral code in the Bible."

By "it", I am referring to the Christian moral code. There are certain values that it is based on that differ a great deal from secular values and ethical codes.

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 3:19:23 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 25, 2012 3:25:17 PM PDT
R. Schindler says:
Krystal,

I agree totally with you. I think the Catholic Church had it all right from the very beginning.

I truly believe that all of these natural disasters we are having is because America and the world don't recognize who God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are anymore.

When these non-believers die, they will be standing before the God whom they denied all of their life. (I'd love to be there.)

Also, abortion is not natural at all. Tell me what other mammals or animals in society kill their young when they are still in the womb. We have killed 50 million babies in our country alone - the one place where babies should feel most safe.

KMS

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 3:29:41 PM PDT
Nick says:
R Schindler writes: I truly believe that all of these natural disasters we are having is because America and the world don't recognize who God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are anymore.

Nick: That would explain why the Bible Belt is always hit hardest. It would be interesting to compare the number of natural disasters in those secular countries where atheism is rampant, like Sweden, to the God-fearing areas of America.

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 4:23:53 PM PDT
It's because you're such a likable guy, Craig.

Posted on May 25, 2012 4:31:46 PM PDT
NeoPaganBaby says:
I was just thinking about God's omnipresence and inability to be in the presence of sin. Does it really count as "in the presence" if he's observing from afar. Sort of like a newsroom with a wall of video monitors. Only in this case there's some kind of vile filth on all of the monitors.

God can tolerate this because not really present, just a passive observer in the control room. Just think of sin as pornographic entertainment for God.

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 4:59:41 PM PDT
karmaman says:
Nick says: "That would explain why the Bible Belt is always hit hardest. It would be interesting to compare the number of natural disasters in those secular countries where atheism is rampant, like Sweden, to the God-fearing areas of America."

I live in Texas and most of the state was on fire last year due to grass fires and drought. None of the preachers had any smartassed remarks about that, though if an earthquake were to hit San Francisco, they'd be praising God, wagging their fingers, and blaming everyone but themselves.

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 5:28:05 PM PDT
Katydid says:
Maybe I'm not expressing myself well. My point is that wherever your job is on the social or economic totem poll you can still have pride in yourself and not let anyone take it away.

For a while I cleaned offices at night in addition to working during the day. Some people I knew thought of it as a low class kind of job. It hurt, because I needed the work and admitedly felt a little embarassed from the reaction. But I put my all into the job even though I pretty much hated it. Regardless of the job, I do my best and take pride in knowing that I am a good worker and in that way am able to get through it.

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 5:42:39 PM PDT
Ryan says:
Craig says:
Krystal says: "What is immoral.??"

What we are doing to our planet is immoral. A government who allows big Corps. to poison our population for money is immoral. Churches spending lots of money, and lying, to get laws passed that are inconsistent with freedom is immoral. I could go on.
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Thanx great post, please do go on, your referencing aspects I had not connected yet strongly agree with.

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 5:47:29 PM PDT
Ryan says:
God: "However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)"

Sounds like the guideline for how AIPAC bought the politicians..

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 5:49:38 PM PDT
NeoPaganBaby says:
Katydid,

Holding your head high and not allowing others to demean your self-esteem is a good thing. Being a janitor is as worthy an occupation as any other. Being criticized for it is out of line. However that doesn't even begin to compare to the degradation of being bought, sold and owned by another person.

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 5:50:18 PM PDT
Ryan says:
Please don't - as most Jews repudiated stoning a LONG time ago. We've moved on a bit since Biblical times.

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Doesn't repudiating god have some terrible consequence..?

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 6:07:28 PM PDT
Dr H says:
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BV sez:
...go by the standards set down by God. Those standards NEVER change.
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Hey, this is exactly what Lee is looking for in the thread over in the Religion forum. Where, exactly, do we find these standards? And does somebody want to tell Lee?

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 6:12:52 PM PDT
Dr H says:
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Bubba sez:
Total violent crime in the US has been going down since 1973 according to National Crime Victimization Survey Violent Crime Trends.
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Yes, clearly morality has been eroding in America for nearly 40 years.

;)

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 6:23:57 PM PDT
Dr H says:
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BV sez:
Anyway, God saw fit to phase that out in the NT.
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Where, exactly, does the NT speak out against slavery?

In reply to an earlier post on May 25, 2012 6:55:03 PM PDT
Katydid says:
"However that doesn't even begin to compare to the degradation of being bought, sold and owned by another person."

I completely agree.
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  150
Total posts:  5732
Initial post:  May 24, 2012
Latest post:  Jan 12, 2013

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