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Can Someone Explain Fundamental Christianity's Belief That They Have A Right To Have Their Belief Endorsed By The Government?


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Posted on Jul 22, 2011 1:17:05 PM PDT
W. Martins says:
Mens: I respectfully disagree. That our Constitution can be replaced is provided for in the Constitution itself by allowing the convening of a new constitutional convention; once that occurred there is nothing to prevent the delegates from tossing out what we have and starting from scratch just as the Founders did with the Articles. Even a minority group could, with the right distribution among the various state legislatures, completely abandon all the principles upon which our democracy has rested and establish a theocracy or some other equally onerous concept.

Until such time, no religion or group of religions have the right to enshrine their religious beliefs in legislation; that is specifically prohibited by the 1st Amendment. So while Fundamentalist may think they have a god given right to do so, such a right does not exist and therefore they cannot logically claim it.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 22, 2011 1:25:41 PM PDT
W. Martins says:
Kevin: "Learn to read, or learn to stop lying." Perhaps if you learned to write more clearly your message would be better understood.

The statement that the Catholic Church built Western Civilization is the assertion without proof, likening that assertion to Col. Sanders championing the right of chickens was a refutation by comparison.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 22, 2011 1:30:08 PM PDT
Mens Sana says:
W. Martins: therefore they cannot logically claim it.

Mens_sana: Yeah, and that stops 'em dead in their tracks.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 22, 2011 1:31:23 PM PDT
Mens Sana says:
It is an exaggeration by a convert. That should explain a lot.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 22, 2011 1:40:56 PM PDT
>Michael Huggins' statement gives you the reasons why they think the have a "legitimate" right. It really IS as simple as he has said.

Thanks.

>There is no clause in our governing documents that say that it is illegal to vote for a platform that would overthrow the Constitution, as a Theocracy would indeed do. Think about it.

Good point--though, if such a thing ever came about, one hopes that the ACLU or some group would immediately file suit seeking an injunction to have such a law set aside. After all, people could also vote for a law to use the guillotine in the United States, but since our Constitution forbids "cruel and unusual punishments" just as much as it forbids "making an establishment of religion," it would be everyone's duty as good citizens to take all legal steps to have such a law voided.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 22, 2011 6:33:03 PM PDT
KB

There's a challenge. Everybody should take time each day to produce Saturnalia carols. The men would run around the streets of Rome naked except for wolf masks.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 22, 2011 6:36:23 PM PDT
WM

Actually, it is somewhat true because the church made sure all of the 'pagan' academies were shut down so it could control the education. It is mostly false because the RCC fought against all the things that built western civilization.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 22, 2011 6:41:12 PM PDT
Mens Sana says:
MRA: [T]he RCC fought against all the things that built western civilization.

M_S: *gasp* You mean the "divine right of kings" didn't build western civilization?

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 22, 2011 6:51:00 PM PDT
The two greatest kings of England (Henrys I and II) fell afoul of the church because they were trying to build legal systems that weren't based on arbitrary decisions.

The 'divine wrong of kings'?

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 22, 2011 7:50:42 PM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Aug 28, 2011 9:22:24 AM PDT]

Posted on Jul 23, 2011 4:29:26 AM PDT
J. Green says:
EvolutionIsTrue says:
It only took the West about 1100a to recover from the "advances" that Christianity brought.
------------------------------
Indeed
You had Greek science then NOTHING for hundreds of years after Constantine.
If education did not glorify jesus the monks and priests did not teach it.
They used old Greek manuscripts and erased them and wrote over top of them.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 23, 2011 6:12:37 AM PDT
W. Martins says:
Mens: "Yeah, and that stops 'em dead in their tracks."

It wasn't meant to. Over time I've learned very clearly that when someone believes he/she is commissioned by god, dialogue is futile. Jeanne d'Arc was so convinced she was a holy messenger that against all reason she was able to successfully lead an army and willingly face the flames; no, those individuals are beyond persuasion, logic or reason.

Fundamentalism has the forum, money and 2000 years of tradition and organization on their side. Those of us on the other side are equipped with reason and logic. If there is any hope to "stop 'em dead in their tracks" it is necessary to promulgate our views. This thread is directed to those who have no side, who have not recognized the danger, who have not yet come to a conclusion.

There needs to be a clear understanding that fundamentalism poses a clear and present danger to constitutional democracy. If one keeps abreast of their actions and assertions it becomes clear that their goal, annunciated or not, self-identified or not, is the imposition of an American Christian Theocracy. I'm not a stranger to what the power of faith or absolute certainty can accomplish; only sober logic and determined reason can overcome mystic fervor and zeal.

To be certain fundamentalism's political aspirations are not accomplished requires the dissemination of accurate information. It is not an exercise to win debating points or a platform to argue semantics.

Posted on Jul 23, 2011 8:06:00 AM PDT
W. Martins says:
Breaking news from Norway: "A suspected right-wing Christian gunman in police uniform killed at least 84 people in a ferocious attack on a youth summer camp of Norway's ruling Labour party, hours after a bomb killed seven in Oslo. Witnesses said the gunman, identified by police as a 32-year-old Norwegian, moved across the small, wooded Utoeya holiday island on Friday firing at random as young people scattered in fear. Police detained the tall, blond suspect, named by local media as Anders Behring Breivik, and charged him for the island killing spree and the Oslo bomb blast. Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg, capturing the shock the attacks have caused in this normally quiet nation of 4.8 million, said: 'A paradise island has been transformed into a hell.' Deputy Police Chief Roger Andresen would not speculate on the man's motives but told a news conference: 'He describes himself as a Christian, leaning toward right-wing Christianity, on his Facebook page."

Right wing Christian is another way of saying Fundamental Christian. These attacks were made on the government of Norway which is politically liberal and the children of members of the governing political party. Christian fundamentalism does not play anywhere near as well in Norway as it does in the U.S., but this is what happens when a a small minority group is convinced that it acts on behalf of God. Members of the group believe they have a god given liberty to take action that the group views as righteous retribution against the ungodly. It is the same mindset that anti-abortion rights groups have here. When fanaticism is allowed to go unchallenged or unchecked the extreme becomes the norm.

Posted on Jul 23, 2011 12:14:22 PM PDT
W. Martins,

This man who claims to be a representative of Christ actually dressed himself as a policeman, so others would come
to him for HELP. The "help" he gave them was a bullet from his Glock.

God forbid that such "help" should triumph here in America, as it seems to be triumphing in our Government at
the present time. Our Right-Wing leaders are so frightened of the "Tea Party", who are almost all such "Fundamentalists",
they refuse to do ANYTHING which will actually HELP us get back to work, take care of our elderly, disabled veterans,
children, and poor.

All this in the Name of Jesus Christ, whose representatives they claim to be.
This is not the Christ I know. And this demon who claims to be "Christ" will NEVER
be my "saviour and "Lord".

This demon's representatives are all over these threads. They are anathema to Christ,
Who truly does love all mankind, and laid His life down for them.

Christ will pass judgement on them, at the right time, and in the right way.
Then they will say "Lord, Lord, did we not cast out demons in Your Name?..."
But HE will tell them "Go away from Me, to the place of all hypocrites and liars."

They do not "Know" Christ. They speak well of Him, but with their deeds, they
"deny" Him, and all who love God in spirit and in truth.

Their judgement will be just, from a Just God, who judges RIGHTEOUSLY.
They are "anathema" from Christ and from His Father, by their OWN words and deeds.

Let them rot where they belong.

Donald
a servant of God and Jesus Christ,
and lover of all who love God in spirit and
in truth.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 23, 2011 12:58:47 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 23, 2011 12:59:51 PM PDT
Mens Sana says:
W. Martins,
I'm sorry that my *sarcasm* font didn;t come through.
:>|

As to fundamentalism's clear and present danger:
http://www.readersupportednews.org/news-section2/355-europe/6723-91-dead-in-right-wing-christian-extremists-shooting-and-bomb-attack

Please note the bodies in the photo.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 23, 2011 2:16:52 PM PDT
Michael Huggins,

I must remind you that in the end, the Antichrist will be allowed to even defeat the Christians among us.
This is what I have come to believe.

Antichrist = Religion + Government.

May God keep America free from this devilish spirit.

I ask all who truly love Jesus to put their representatives on "Ignore", so their
hatefullness will not impeed real discussion, and the furtherance of the
truly good news of Christ's sacrifice of Himself for the world.

All who have the spirit of Antichrist are "Anathema" from Christ, and will get the
righteous judgement of a righteous God, in Jesus Christ, when they each stand
alone before Him. Then they will not be able to claim the "Righteousness of Christ",
as they all so hatefully do.

There is no love for God in their hearts. They love the world, not the Father.
They hate God's Chosen People, the Jews. They hate anyone who points out
this hatred, which they claim is the Love of Jesus.

All those who have been murdered by these messengers of the Antichrist will
say, as one, "Their judgment is Just."

Donald
a servant of Christ, and of the God of the Jews and Christians

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 23, 2011 2:47:35 PM PDT
Kevin Bold says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Jul 23, 2011 3:23:15 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 23, 2011 3:24:06 PM PDT
W. Martins says:
Kevin: It would be refreshing if you could string a few sentences together in a cogent, coherent and concise manner. Your disjointed streams of consciousness are grammatically torturous and tedious in content. Try being a bit less defensive and somewhat more rational in communicating ideas. It might also be helpful if your points were based on your own independent research and conclusions rather than merely parroting the pap fed to you.

"Normal majority?" Really? While fundamental Christians delude themselves into thinking they are a majority they don't even classify as such in the U.S. In the world they're a distinct minority. As for normal, well preserve us from such normality.

Nevertheless the point was not a smear of fundamentalist, but a warning that when extremism is given rein the results are extreme as well. If you weren't so defensive you might be able to think more clearly and discern the meaning. Alas it seems you read with the same flaws with which you write.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 23, 2011 4:30:05 PM PDT
Mens Sana says:
Kevin: More likely you've ignored them because they don't fit your template.

Mens_sana: Or, more likely, they were "ignored" because they never wrote anything that threatened hellfire, damnation, and machine pistols.

Posted on Jul 25, 2011 9:29:14 AM PDT
Brian Curtis says:
Religious fanaticism deserves no more respectful treatment than any other form of fanaticism; it should be bluntly and openly criticized at its first appearance.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 13, 2012 7:26:27 PM PDT
Easter Lily says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Mar 13, 2012 7:48:40 PM PDT
J. Green says:
Owned By Kitties is Keepin' The Faith Alive says:
Church and State SHOULD remain separate. Unfortunately, State (or Government) is trying to infringe on Church's rights. Definitely NOT cool.
-------------------------------------------------
What right is that.
They have freedom to practice their religion.
Not to force everyone else to practice their religion

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 15, 2012 12:17:00 PM PST
R.M. says:
I agree with you that the separation is a good thing and should be observed; but the line is more grey than black and white. An individual should be guided by his convictions in what he does within the government. But the government should never reflect a single groups beliefs, nor should the government require any individual to abandon his beliefs. Nor should the taxes from all people be used to subvert the beliefs of any specific group(s).

Abortion should remain legal and available, but taxes should never be used to pay for it.

Alcohol should be available but costs incurred should not be born by the general public.

No marriage of any one religion should be recognized. Instead the government should have a civil union that all people can partake in without the need to impose on anyone else what a marriage is.

Only by protecting each individuals First Amendment rights can we protect everyone and allow all to have the same freedom.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 15, 2012 4:08:27 PM PST
There is no reason to exclude abortion from the other medical services provided thru programs for those in need, because objections are religious in nature. We do not get to choose what our tax dollars pay for. If we did, those of us who object to war & military action abroad would cripple our nation's defense & military programs, by denying use of our tax dollars.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 15, 2012 5:28:44 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 15, 2012 5:30:21 PM PST
Kevin Bold says:
What would really be refreshing is to see you admit that a person can disagree with you without you accusing them of being an idiot. People like you are the ones responsible for the disappearance of civility in modern society.
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This discussion

Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  35
Total posts:  258
Initial post:  Jul 9, 2011
Latest post:  Nov 17, 2012

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