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Relationship between LDS doctrine and LDS scripture.


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Initial post: Jun 11, 2012 2:09:10 PM PDT
How important is the relationship between LDS doctrine and LDS scripture?

I ask because the relationship between doctrine and scripture is essential in Protestant theology, but in talking to Roman Catholics it only appears to be secondary. Then, when discussing LDS beliefs, it does not appear to be very important at all. Am I misreading this?

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 11, 2012 2:19:29 PM PDT
libloon2 says:
Johann Niemand says: //Then, when discussing LDS beliefs, it does not appear to be very important at all.//

The book of Mormon is Joseph Smith's translation of some gold plates he dug up from the earth. When others wondered if he translated them correctly, he said the plates had by that time been assumed into heaven (and not back into the earth from whence they came.)

I'm not Mormon, but as you can see from the above, I wouldn't place too much importance on them either.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 11, 2012 2:30:42 PM PDT
libloon2:

I don't. But Islam has an almost identical explanation about the Qur'an being revealed by an angel, miraculously translated by a man who didn't know the language, and then taken back up to heaven. But Muslims tend to place great emphasis on what the Qur'an says. On the other hand, it's hard to discuss LDS doctrine with LDS because they don't seem to follow what they consider as scripture so much as what their church leaders are saying at the moment. They like to pick out passages from the Bible or their scriptures to support their views, but just ignore the ones that don't.

Posted on Jun 11, 2012 2:45:37 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 12, 2012 6:49:48 AM PDT
Sean B says:
I attribute much of the supposed scriptural slippage to the following sequence:

1. A person not a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) presents "LDS" doctrinal viewpoint "A" to a LDS person, including scriptural support for the viewpoint.

2. LDS person corrects viewpoint A that was presented, including scriptural support.

3. The non-LDS person surmises that the LDS person must not believe the scriptures since viewpoint A and the scriptures seem to be at odds, and the LDS person refuses to accept viewpoint A.

4. LDS person's claim to believe the scriptures is dismissed.

5. Nothing was accomplished.

I've seen it over and over. We hear what we want to hear, what supports our current viewpoint. It's easiest.

Sean

Posted on Jun 11, 2012 3:59:08 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author on Jun 11, 2012 4:02:25 PM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 11, 2012 4:03:12 PM PDT
MrNirom says:
Got an example of this supposed slippage?

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 11, 2012 4:06:37 PM PDT
MrNirom says:
Do you have a specific belief you are discussing?

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 11, 2012 4:09:36 PM PDT
MrNirom says:
libloon says: When others wondered if he translated them correctly, he said the plates had by that time been assumed into heaven (and not back into the earth from whence they came.)

Heaven? Who said the plates were returned to Heaven? Where did you get your information from?

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 12, 2012 6:14:03 AM PDT
Sean B:

So you're saying that LDS doctrine actually matches the LDS scriptures, and if it appears that there's a disconnect, it's only because the non-LDS reader is misinterpreting the passage? Do I understand you correctly?

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 12, 2012 6:22:40 AM PDT
Kevin Bold says:
While Muslims believe the Qur'an was dictated by an angel to Muhammad, it was dictated in Arabic, which Muhammad spoke.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 12, 2012 7:06:03 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 12, 2012 7:33:45 AM PDT
Sean B says:
MrNirom says: Heaven? Who said the plates were returned to Heaven? Where did you get your information from?

=============

It's recorded by Joseph Smith in History of the Church. The excerpt is included in the introductory section of the Book of Mormon where Joseph relates his experiences regarding God revealing the Nephite plates to him, including returning the plates to the angel of the Lord and why they were returned (at the end of the account). Check it out in the front of your Book of Mormon, they're free, I assume everyone has one in their library. It's at LDS.org as well, very easy to find all the scriptures there, searchable.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 12, 2012 7:13:57 AM PDT
MrNirom says:
@Sean B - Trying to figure out the purpose for this new response. Who are you responding to?

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 12, 2012 7:32:50 AM PDT
Sean B says:
MrNirom says: Got an example of this supposed slippage?

=============

Example.

Person A: "The LDS believe that all other Christians are an abomination, as Joseph Smith said."

Person B: Incorrect. We believe that the post NT Creeds were not authorized by God and are not correct, they are "an abomination" in the sight of God. Also, there are and have been many false teachers within Christianity. Both aspects are plainly spoken of in the Bible. We believe that The Church of Jesus Christ has been restored to the earth, not as a fractured entity, but as one body, fitly joined together as a body or building, led by revelations from God through living prophets and apostles, the same as God has worked with man throughout the Biblical record. There are also many good people of other Christian denominations.

Joseph said, as recorded in our scriptures: "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)-and which I should join.

"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

A: Then you do not believe what your own founding prophet taught about other Christians. You do not truly believe Joseph was a prophet.

B: Incorrect, I do not believe what you think Joseph said about other churches.

*Impasse*

Sean

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 12, 2012 7:34:06 AM PDT
Sean B says:
MrNirom, see edit

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 12, 2012 7:38:43 AM PDT
Kevin Bold:

Muhammad spoke Arabic. He couldn't read - so the legend goes.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 12, 2012 7:40:31 AM PDT
MrNirom says:
@Sean B. So you believe the plates are in Heaven?

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 12, 2012 7:49:31 AM PDT
Kevin Bold says:
No argument there.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 12, 2012 7:50:52 AM PDT
Sean B says:
The last we know is that the plates were returned to Moroni at the conclusion of the translation and he has them in his charge. Studying Joseph's history it is easy to see why Joseph did not keep them. Also, God wishes to try the faith of his people and get them to go to Him for confirmation of the truth of all things by the Power of the Holy Ghost rather than relying on our other 5 senses which can be deceived. I do not know whether the plates were deposited in the earth or kept in heaven by Moroni, who holds the "keys" of that record.

Sean

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 12, 2012 8:08:53 AM PDT
MrNirom says:
@Sean B - Were not the plates deposited in a cave with a room filled with other plates? Was not the Sword of Laban and the Lihona not also present with these plates? Based on that testimony, I would have to say the plates are NOT in Heaven. They are indeed in the care of an angel.. but not in heaven.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 12, 2012 8:24:26 AM PDT
MrNirom:

You raise a good point that perhaps illustrates SeanB's earlier point.

I had heard and assumed that the plates were taken back into heaven. Sean also had this impression and cited to JS Hist as authority. Reviewing JS Hist, I did not see where the plates were taken back to heaven, but checking other sources I see where people are saying the plates were redeposited in a cave or something.

I actually had in mind though things that are in black and white in the BoM, D&C, & PGP.

I've read the BoM & PGP. I'm wondering if reading the D&C (once I finish wading through the 1000 pages of Calvin's Institutes) would be worth the trouble because I'm not sure how authoritative LDS find its passages of the D&C after my discussions on the Amazon forums.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 12, 2012 12:21:57 PM PDT
Sean B says:
Johann, the LDS accept 4 books as scripture - the word of the Lord - The Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. They are all authoritative. I will add that the Bible is the foundation for our doctrine, the Book of Mormon is the "keystone" of our religion, remove it and you can remove everything else - the truth of all subsequent revelations, visions, powers restored, sealing of families together, the authority of a living prophet - all rest on the validity of the Book of Mormon being from God to man, translated by a man called of God for that work, Joseph Smith. The Doctrine & Covenants expounds upon many significant doctrines, including pre-earth life, the purpose of this life, and especially our destiny into the eternities (section 76 esp.), the Word of Wisdom (health code), the principle of eternal marriage, the work of salvation for the dead (esp. baptism for the dead), the Godhead, the divinity of Jesus Christ, the role of Satan, clarification of scriptural passages in the Bible (esp. Revelation and Isaiah), and dozens of other topics.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 12, 2012 12:24:32 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 12, 2012 12:25:02 PM PDT
Sean B says:
I read somewhere about the cave you mention, it's probably accurate. It's tangential, interesting, but not all that significant to me compared to the other great and important things revealed to and experienced by the LDS. So, no argument here. I just focus on the teachings and revelations of the prophets, past (including scriptures) and living.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 12, 2012 1:59:17 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 12, 2012 2:02:00 PM PDT
libloon2 says:
MrNirom says: Here he quotes my previous post: Libloon says: "When others wondered if he translated them correctly, he said the plates had by that time been assumed into heaven (and not back into the earth from whence they came.)

MrNirom replies: //Heaven, Who said the plates were returned to Heaven? Where did you get your information from?//

AND SO: Let me admit my mistake.
HERE: I quote from Encyclopedia Brittanica: "THE BOOK OF MORMON -
Four years later, or on Sept.22, 1827, these plates were delivered INTO SMITH'S hands, and with them, instruments called 'interpreters' (Urim and Thummim), by which he translated the characters found upon the plates, and gave to the world the BOOK OF MORMON - so called because Mormon, one of the later prophets of this thousand-year period, had made an abridgement of many of the previous plates."

"Moroni, the resurrected being or "angel" who delivered the plates to Joseph Smith, was the last mortal custodian of the plates before he concealed them in the HILL CUMORAH about 14 CENTURIES PREVIOUSLY."

AND NOW MY QUESTION: If they were buried in the HILL CUMORAH a whole FOURTEEN CENTURIES previously, and then were resurrected for Joseph Smith to read and translate them, - - - -
THEN - WHERE ARE THEY NOW?
Other people might want to inspect them and see if they were translated correctly.
Maybe someone should tell us where the HILL CUMORAH is, IF THEY ARE THERE NOW.
Skeptics might want to know.
Don't you think?

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 12, 2012 11:39:47 PM PDT
MrNirom says:
libloon2 says: "Maybe someone should tell us where the HILL CUMORAH is, IF THEY ARE THERE NOW. Skeptics might want to know. Don't you think?"
=====================
I honestly don't think it would matter to the rest of the world. How many translations are there of the Bible? Each one claims a better translation than the one before it. After all.. if they we satisfied with the current translation, they wouldn't need to do a new one.

Also, what would the real purpose be if the Angel handed the plates back to mankind? To re-translate them again for a better version? Would that then convince the world that the book is true? Does the world believe the Bible is true? Nope.. it sure doesn't. The only ones who believe are those that have the faith to do so. We have had how many translations of the Bible and have the Jews accepted it yet? How about the Buddhist? Or even Islam? Are they now accepting our new and improved translated Bible because the smartest men worked on it said it is better now? I would say No.

The Lord has all ready said that the Book of Mormon the way it is translated is good. Why do we need mankind to check it out? The only people who would believe that the Book was translated correctly are those who have the faith now that the Book is true. It is the Holy Ghost that testifies to man's spirit that the Book of Mormon is indeed what it purports to be. Not some translator.

Posted on Jun 13, 2012 12:29:13 AM PDT
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  10
Total posts:  132
Initial post:  Jun 11, 2012
Latest post:  Jul 11, 2012

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