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Interfaith dialogue Part II (Continuation of the "Do Christians learn these teachings in the NT... thread)

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In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 11:16:05 AM PDT
Allan says:
Bryan Borich says: now now Allan....be nice to Hanalah....she's actually pretty good in her way.

Allan: At her best she can be delightful.

My first experience was a couple of years ago when I created a post to discuss Adam's expulsion from Eden and the confounding of languages at Babel, something I see quite differently from any believer.

Despite my atheism, Hanalah and I had a truly interesting and worthwhile discussion in which she offered many insights.

But every now and again, increasingly, she totally misreads my posts and lets me have the sharp edge of her tongue, so much so that at one stage I no longer bothered to respond to her.

I changed my tone this time because she accused me of making things up, something I do not appreciate.

In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 11:25:44 AM PDT
Allan says:
Yes, Ryan.

I am becoming more interested in the causes of the undoubted introduction of dualism into Judaism, more so as an Orthodox Jew started talking about a Satan (Belial) closely linked to the Christian Devil rather than the Tanakh Adversary.

There is no question that the returning exiles brought some of Zoroaster's teachings back with them, and there was considerable conflict between them and the Jews who had been left behind by the Assyrians and had stuck with their original teachings.

We see this in the End of Days thinking which took over Judaism, and the final cosmic battle between the now-Jewish Prince of Light and the Prince of Darkness, which undoubtedly began as Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu.

As with the Dead Sea scrolls, forum Jews seem determined not to discuss this.

In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 11:27:40 AM PDT
Allan says:
That is correct, Ryan.

Some 10,000 elite Jews were exiled, while many others escaped to Egypt, where they would have maintained their original Torah teachings.

In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 11:30:21 AM PDT
Ryan Willis says:
Well, one certainly can't deny similarities between the two and I don't doubt a fair argument could be made for it. Personally though I see the similarities in a different light, even if one could make the case they're so close one was derived from the other. But neither am I an expert on that particular matter so I'm in no position to argue the contrary at the present time.

In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 11:30:36 AM PDT
Allan says:
I was interested to learn that the term Asiatic has pejorative overtones, as I still see academics using it without any such intent..

In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 11:32:18 AM PDT
Allan says:
I'm on a worthwhile commission, SIA ;-)

In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 11:34:49 AM PDT
Allan says:
Peaked your curiosity, mate?

Mine was first piqued when I was about 8 or 9.

In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 11:41:57 AM PDT
Allan says:
''I think I will have the library order me a copy and read the intro you mentioned.''

Keep me posted. I wish you luck.

''I will see what I can pick up on that idea. My gut feeling is that there was no truly separate group but that there would have been a sect that had been influenced by the alien religion and culture.''

I have seen too many references to the disputes which arose, but am finding it extraordinarily difficult to find any real examination of this.

Don't worry about those other threads. One has died, another is on its last legs, and a couple more are degenerating so, I have to warn you, I will now have more time on my hands.

Lois and SIA will agree the last thing you need is to get embroiled with the posse.

''You understand, of course, there are those that disagree with me.''

Never!!!!

In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 11:45:02 AM PDT
Allan says:
''G-dd then said He would return later amd. after He had fortified a city for them, provided for food,water and protection, He returned. It was then that the Jews said, yes we would like you for our G-d.''

Reminds me of the scene in Life of Brian, where John Cleese asked what the Romans had done for Judea.

In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 11:49:16 AM PDT
Allan says:
''Curse you Allan for removing my foil.''

You should be used to it by now, surely?

Thank you for this post.

In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 11:51:11 AM PDT
Allan says:
Funny you should say that.

One of the posters I got on really well with often referred to me as Dark Allan (but that had Celtic connotations).

Sadly, I haven't seen Blueskies for some time. She was great fun.

In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 11:55:30 AM PDT
Allan says:
''I would never challenge him :) Well, almost never ;-D''

You're sounding a bit Gilbert and Sullivanish here, my friend.

In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 11:57:37 AM PDT
Allan says:
''Proverbs and Psalms both seem to demonstrate exceedingly so that wisdom and understanding come from God''

Sophia Rules, OK?

In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 12:02:09 PM PDT
Allan says:
''Personally though I see the similarities in a different light...''

Let's hear it, please.

You might also like to give your POV on the Christian Devil.

Not only do I see Zoroaster there, I am convinced it owes much to Enoch, though I have yet to follow up on this.

IMO there a mythology which the Jews needed to hide. The Nephilim story is but a fragment of this other story.

In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 12:02:37 PM PDT
Bob Edwards says:
Hi Hanalah,

I also do not embrace a concept of eternal torment, although my beliefs are rooted Jesus' teachings. When I think of being "saved," I consider being saved from things like intolerance, spite etc. In other words, I do not see myself as needing salvation only from things outside of myself (e.g. kidnapping). Sometimes I believe I need to be saved from things within.

In my experience with the Hebrew Scriptures, this theme is also present. Yes, there is certainly salvation from external oppression (e.g. slavery in Egypt). At the same time, however, I see people being saved from things in their own lives that have a grip on them. Anger, for example, if not managed well can become an kind of oppression from within. Sometimes fear can do this as well.

I think sometimes when Christians talk of "salvation" they also have this in mind. Do you see evidence of this concept in the Hebrew scriptures as well?

In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 12:04:14 PM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Sep 14, 2012 10:32:24 AM PDT]

Posted on May 4, 2012 12:34:33 PM PDT
Allan says:
More work for me, SIA :-( Thanks for the tip-off. We can add to that the missing Book of Jasher: the only one I know of is highly dubious.

Many Jews seems to have the amusing notion that they created everything: Enoch was given writing, Abraham taught the Babylonians astronomy/astrology, and so on. (wiki: According to this book, Hebrew is the language of Heaven, and was originally spoken by all creatures in the Garden, animals and man...)

I don't think you were on that thread when Big Shmooz, an Orthodox Jew, got going? He reckoned God infected all Gentiles with antiSemitism, and I later found that at least one Jewish sect, which believed in predestination, said that God deliberately created us to be evil so he could demonstrate his power by destroying us (and all Jews who did not accept their take on the Torah). He created two sets of angels, one to keep the good Jews on the right track, the other, under Belial, to make sure we stayed baddies. Hadn't ever seen that before, but it chimed in nicely with Big Shmooz's take on us. Also from your wiki site: However, Jubilees also states that God granted ten percent of the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim to try to lead mankind astray after the flood.

What we need to do is get intense research on Ethopian Judaism and Christianity. They must have all sorts of writing tucked away in their religious institutions, and of course they say they have the real Ark of the Covenant*.

wiki again: "This kingdom was to be ruled over by a Messiah sprung, not from Levi - that is, from the Maccabean family - as some of his contemporaries expected - but from Judah. This kingdom would be gradually realized on earth, and the transformation of physical nature would go hand in hand with the ethical transformation of man until there was a new heaven and a new earth.''

From my reading, the Jews changed their concept of the Messiah after they finally accepted that they never were going to defeat the Gentiles, a change which occurred somewhere between being conquered by the Greeks and inviting the Romans in to protect them.

*Another wiki: The Ethiopian Orthodox Church claims to possess the Ark of the Covenant, or Tabot, in Axum, not far from the border with Eritrea. The object is currently kept under guard in a treasury near the Church of Our Lady Mary of Zion and is used occasionally in ritual processions.[23] Replicas of the Axum tabot are kept in every Ethiopian church, each with its own dedication to a particular saint, the most popular of these include Mary, George and Michael.[24]...The Lemba people of South Africa and Zimbabwe have claimed that their ancestors carried the Ark south, calling it the ngoma lungundu or "voice of God", eventually hiding it in a deep cave in the Dumghe mountains, their spiritual home.[28][29]

In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 12:38:42 PM PDT
Allan says:
Luckily I spotted your edit, SIA. I see you share my interest in Ethiopia.

'' I wouldn't focus solely on Zoroaster, there may also be Egyptian influence as well.''

I got into all sorts of troubled when I pointed out the Ten Commandments is based on the Book of the Dead, and of course we know some psalms also are based on Egyptian writings.

Noah comes from Utnapishtim.

In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 12:40:09 PM PDT
yba says:
You bested me again. I had never pickedup on peforative associations with the term Asiatic. I don't disagree, I just never picked up on it.
I did get in a discussion one time over lunch at the University of Arizona when someone became offended when I referred to Asia Minor when talking about historical Turkey. evidently, the antagonist felt that Asia had to be an extension of Europe and Europe stopped at the Bosporus and Dardanelles. I just let him rant, he seemed awfully incensed.

In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 12:44:59 PM PDT
Lois says:
I have mine! =]

In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 12:46:51 PM PDT
Lois says:
Never doubt it! =]

In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 12:48:40 PM PDT
yba says:
This is a new type of creature for me. I must have enjoyed a charmed life, I have met very few that were so certain they were so right and the entire world so wrong. I grew up where the mountains were real, snow ws cold, brooks were the only thing that burbbled and Jays the only things that babbled.
Anybody that is against something, has got to missed something along the way. I just thought I would see what it was he had lost.

In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 12:50:38 PM PDT
Lois says:
Personally, I find that word as bad as the first. But others may disagree.

In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 12:53:19 PM PDT
Allan says:
You've posted this from the wrong place, Yaakov. You referring to Big Shmooz?

In reply to an earlier post on May 4, 2012 12:55:32 PM PDT
yba says:
Lois, in her biting tongue :), ran me out the other night.
She told me that it was time for me to get some sleep.
Thank goodness for friend.
I kept hoping for some reason and thought but instead of making friends out of enemies, I was becoming as one of them.
Bad karma.
I remember first reading the previous thread. I left here for the same reason bt thought, from the initial post of this one character, that reason was going to be present.
My blood pressure has gone back down to where it should be. I have even looked at The Tower of Babble understanding I had. I stick with my Gen. 3:22, but the latter, Isee in an interestingly different light from a slightly different angle.
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Initial post:  May 2, 2012
Latest post:  Jun 11, 2012

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