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marriage ban in north carolina passes


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In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 10:24:08 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 10, 2012 10:48:49 AM PDT
A customer says:
"Hogwash -- foolish hogwash, self defeating hogwash."

Damn. You got me. I forgot about the magic word, "hogwash." You say it three times and it instantly refutes any arguement, claim or statement.

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 10:24:19 AM PDT
Bubba says:
Unless you personally know what sort of bigotry, persecution, beatings, and bashing are suffered by gay people, I suggest you shut up about it.

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 10:28:33 AM PDT
M.G
It's kind of contradictory of you to say how much you love gay people but then would deny them something they would also like to be recognized for due to what an ancient book says.

Posted on May 10, 2012 10:30:24 AM PDT
Indeed Bubba..
Postulating behind prayers and false piety is no solution.

Posted on May 10, 2012 11:25:58 AM PDT
S. Kessler says:
http://anthropologist.livejournal.com/1314574.html

Lest anyone think that Christianity has never recognized same-sex marriages, check out this article. It is quite and eye-opener.

Posted on May 10, 2012 11:51:00 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 10, 2012 11:53:36 AM PDT
S.K
Well done. Unfortunately the Christians will find some way to counter this with some excuse or another.... Their mindset is set in stone and there unfortunately is no changing........This should be sent to every Church leader in the world btw

Posted on May 10, 2012 11:56:57 AM PDT
Rev Otter says:
<<Christians will find some way to counter this with some excuse or another>>

my money's on some variation of No True Scotsman. :)

Posted on May 10, 2012 12:19:54 PM PDT
M. Galishoff says:
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In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 12:23:06 PM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 1:09:47 PM PDT
DMP says:
Not hate, SCL--allow me to explain: On behalf of atheists everywhere who believe that all human beings are deserving of equal rights, I'll just extrapolate on the time-worn mantra, "Love the ignorant, hate the ignorance."

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 1:15:44 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 10, 2012 5:06:58 PM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 1:20:48 PM PDT
Rev Otter says:
<<And all human beings are deserving of equal rights is not factual>>

i like how you left off the "believe" part. :)

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 1:26:05 PM PDT
Bubba says:
I hate anti-gay constitutional amendments and legislation, all it leads to is division and hatred.

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 1:27:13 PM PDT
Bubba says:
I agree with DMP on this matter.

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 1:27:18 PM PDT
S. Kessler says:
Can anyone parse that for me? It's too convoluted by half.

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 2:41:01 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 10, 2012 2:48:11 PM PDT
A customer says:
"I do not feel you understand truly what I am trying to say."

You are correct. I did not read your entire post when I wrote my first response. Now that I have, I see that I did not truly understand you. It appears to be much worse. I'm not sure where to begin, so in no particular order....

First let me say I remember you now, and your "compromise" of seperate but equal. I am still not interested. The thing about equal rights is that they are either equal or they aren't.

Now, for the moment, let us table the issue of same sex marriage and discuss marriage as it currently exist, or more accurately, as it existed prior to the last decade, before gay marriage became legalized in the US.

You say, "If you are not Christian or of a faith that sees the divine institution of traditional marriage as I and numerous others do, then it is just a word with legal connotations," which indicates, I think, that you at least understand in part that marriage, as it exists in the US state and federal laws, is a legal construct, not a relgious one.

But then you go on to say, "But marriage, as a God-ordained and transitionally defined and understood and recognized union between man and wife is the hot button issue for me." This might be the definition of marriage for you, and that's fine, but "marriage as God-ordained" has no legal meaning in the US. There are no religious requirements for a marriage license. Let me make this clear: your religion does not own marriage; it does not own the institution of marriage, and it does not own the word marriage. If you wish to apply an additional, religious meaning to your personal marriage, you absolutely have that right. That doesn't mean the rest of us are obliged to do likewise.

In short, marriage in the US is a completely secular insitution. This is a fact. One requires no religious authority or dispensation to get legally married in the US, yet on the other hand, simply being married in a church before God does not make one legally married in the US. It is the government, not God, that legally declares a person wed.

Furthermore, back to the subject of same sex marriage, your particular brand of Christianity doesn't own marriage or its legal institution either. The fact is, there are millions of Christians who accept gay marriage. There are numerous Christians, clergy included, that believe a same sex marriage is also ordained by God. You don't get to legally enforce your particular brand of Christianity on other Christians, let alone non-Christians, and vice versa. Its true. I've got a fancy rag called the Constitution and several decades of legal jurisprudence that say so.

Furthermore, there is very little that is traditional about marriage as it is practiced today. Biblical marriage included incest and polygamy, where the women was treated as property, her virginity essential to the transaction to ensure the "goods" had not been soiled. This is about as far as you can get from a modern marriage, where two people join together of their own free will, out of mutual love and friendship, with both parties equally protected.

Moving on. You also say, "But demanding that I and many others must concede what we hold sacred and dear..." First, they demand that you conede nothing other than their equal right to the secular institution of marriage, which we've already established is not the sole domain of Christianity or any other religion.

As to the sacred sanctity of marriage, do you honestly think that a same sex couple defiles the institution of marriage any more than, "Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire," "The Bachelor," or celebrity marriages which last only a few days or weeks. We've reduced marriage to a game show, a spectator sport, but you want to exclude same sex couples on the grounds that it is "sacred." That is "hogwash."

Furthermore, I hold that it is you and others like you that defile and profain the beautiful institution of marriage. I agree that marriage can be sacred and wonderful. Two people joining together, out of love, respect and commitment, to grow together, build a family, to cherish and nurture one another, to cry and laugh, share in one another's victories and defeats, this is sacred. It is transcendant. We rise above and beyond our selves and create something greater than the sum of its parts. Yet you defile it by reducing its most fundamental requisite to one of base anatomy: a penis and a vagina. As if all we are were our genitalia. That is vile, and it debases our humanity.

By the way, I'm not gay or part of the gay community. But I am militant as hell, if by "militant" you mean I will continue to peacefully fight for gay rights.

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 2:44:19 PM PDT
dischism says:
MG

I know you're a good man, who truly practises Christian love in the very best way that you can and I truly admire your sincerity and dedication.

However, that has no relevance to the fact that marriage is defined in many ways other than a Christian sacrament. It's simply a legal contract for which a religious ceremony is an extra for those who feel the need. Marriage was only incorporated within the canon as a sacrament in the fifteenth century.

As an MD, though, you should know better than to simply dismiss sexual orientation as a lifestyle choice. That's disappointing.

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 2:54:01 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 10, 2012 3:00:05 PM PDT
A customer says:
"I know you're a good man, who truly practises Christian love in the very best way that you can and I truly admire your sincerity and dedication."

He may be a good man, but I am very skeptical of his professed love for gays. Read his post again. He repeatedly calls gays "militant," tells them to get off their "high horse," chiding them for being confrontational, all because they are adult, legal citizens who want the same equality and rights as the rest of us.

He has advocated more than once now that the gay community should just quiet down, stop upsetting people with their "confrontational" demands for equality and justice, and once they've done so, we'll see about granting them some level of same sex union, just so long as they understand that the term marriage can never apply to them.

That isn't love.

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 2:55:19 PM PDT
A customer says:
"Who would object to a same sex monogamous couple formalizing their relationship of love and commitment such that it gives each member many if not all of the status that happens to be provided under the law..."

North Carolina, apparently.

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 3:18:41 PM PDT
dischism says:
Alex

< but I am very skeptical of his professed love for gays. Read his post again. He repeatedly calls gays "militant," tells them to get off their "high horse," chiding them for being confrontational, all because they are adult, legal citizens who want the same equality and rights as the rest of us. >

I don't disagree with you about this; I think he's suffering from cognitive dissonance and it's causing him real anguish from what he said on another thread. He's having a great deal of difficulty in areas other than this in reconciling divine love with literal interpretations of the Bible.

Posted on May 10, 2012 3:21:13 PM PDT
I support gay marriage as long as it's between a gay man and a gay woman.

Now everyone will vote for me.

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 3:21:39 PM PDT
Alex,
Well said. I agree.
John

In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 3:59:20 PM PDT
G. J. Stein says:
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In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 4:33:02 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 10, 2012 4:35:01 PM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on May 10, 2012 4:37:37 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 10, 2012 4:39:53 PM PDT
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  59
Total posts:  1581
Initial post:  May 8, 2012
Latest post:  Jun 11, 2012

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