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Why Do Christians Admire Moses and Abraham?


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Showing 51-74 of 74 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on May 5, 2012 4:06:06 PM PDT
mrs exp says:
Mr Krinkle,
I don't know how many Christians believe that Adam and Eve were real and in a 6 24-hour day creation. There only seem to 3 or 4 on these forums. So either not many believe that or they don't post here.

Some of the ones who believe and post are Seventh Day Adventists, I am not SDA.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on May 5, 2012 4:07:22 PM PDT
Vicki

So if it orders genocide it's right?

In reply to an earlier post on May 5, 2012 4:10:34 PM PDT
mrs exp says:
Jack Vix,
I admire Abraham and Moses and believe in Adam and Eve. So maybe I'm not so fringe?

God was testing Abraham. If you will notice when Abraham and Isaac left the two servants that he said 'we' will go and worship and 'we' will return to you. Abraham trusted God to bring Isaac back to life if he did indeed kill him. But he passed the test by being willing. It is a foreshadow of God letting His own Son to be killed for our sins.

Why would I not admire Moses?
exp

Posted on May 5, 2012 4:14:20 PM PDT
Kevin Bold says:
Why shouldn't we?

In reply to an earlier post on May 5, 2012 4:15:23 PM PDT
mrs exp says:
Amon,
Okay. On omniscience I'm leaning toward Open Thesism. Which is the belief that God knows everything that can be known. For example: the only way he would know that I would decide to believe in him would be because he knew me so well by previous actions that he could predict how I would act. But he didn't decide before the foundation of the world that I would believe nor did he foreknow what i would do before the foundation of the world, but only after he got to know me as I lived my life.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on May 5, 2012 4:18:23 PM PDT
mrs exp says:
G J Stein,
He is in heaven now, and when he comes everyone will be aware of it. There will be a shout, a voice of the archangel, a trumpet and he will bodily descend as they saw him go. Somehow we all will see it. I have no details on how that is possible unless it take the amount of time for the earth to rotate one rotation.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on May 5, 2012 4:25:13 PM PDT
mrs exp says:
Mark R Allen,
The only time that God killed many people was at the flood and it was necessary because they were a hybrid race of the sons of God (fallen angels) and human women. They were polluted. And so he started over.

As far as the Canaanites were concerned his main concern was to drive them from the land which they had polluted with their abominable religious practices. He wanted to rid the land of their altars, pillars and wherever they practiced their abominable religion. There were only three cities that were razed to the ground and that is where their armies were kept. They were fortresses to invaders out.

Later when the Israelites did the same he also kicked them out-by way of Assyria and Babylon.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on May 5, 2012 4:32:14 PM PDT
mrs exp

So everybody, except Noah's family were the evil hybrids your god allowed to be created? Your god didn't didn't kill 'many', it killed all but eight. It also killed the flora and fauna for good measure. Those lemurs and dolphins are real mean ones.

In reply to an earlier post on May 5, 2012 6:58:33 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 5, 2012 8:28:32 PM PDT
Jack Vix says:
exp: Why would I not admire Moses?

JV: Read OP

exp: If you will notice when Abraham and Isaac left the two servants that he said 'we' will go worship and 'we' will return to you.

JV: Seriously?! He couldn't have known it was a test or it wouldn't be a test. He didn't know they'd both return he was prepared to kill him as an offering. He was right there with his son, of course he wasn't going to be like "I'm going to go up there and burn my son." The whole reason Abraham got his son to go along in the first place was because he thought they were just going to worship. It's consistent. There's no reason he would know it was a test.

exp: Abraham trusted God to bring Isaac back to life if he did indeed killed him.

JV: There's no indication of that in the story, where are you getting this? Make it up? Fancy the idea so you believe it? It's all a big grasp. Some vague notion that it's a "foreshadowing" of another sacrifice doesn't really say anything, it's just a generic apologetic utterence that's supposed to be meaningful. So what if it was a foreshadowing? Doesn't change the story.

In reply to an earlier post on May 5, 2012 7:12:16 PM PDT
Mr. Krinkle says:
G. J. Stein says:


Where is the coming Messiah anyway? In the White House, leading the EU, enjoying a cigar in Rome?

K: Good question. Been waiting somewhere around 1,940 years and counting for a claimed one to return using a reasonable understanding of the NT, which says he should have been back somewhere around 1,900 years or so ago.

You tell me. Where is the returning Messiah?

In reply to an earlier post on May 5, 2012 7:28:17 PM PDT
Amon says:
So you believe that "God" isn't omnipotent?

In reply to an earlier post on May 6, 2012 7:23:58 AM PDT
Vicki says:
Dear Jack,

You said :"Of course your defense would be "God wouldn't say that", which is not even a point. He's made people do such things in the Bible and you think it's wonderful and right."

The NT gives us guidelines that help us to discern the motives behind the teachings or messages that we receive. It's called "discerning the spirit" of the message or teacher. We are actually warned in the Bible that people and Satan will try to deceive the believer and will even present themselves as being from God.

We don't sit down in prayer and assume that any thought flitting through our minds come from God. We don't believe a teacher just because they say they know God- we examine what they teach against what the Bible says and we also examine their life to see if their walk matches their talk.

You say that your questions are just hypothetical and to make the point that if we were Moses/Abraham, we would obey God.

But is that really the point of your questions? Didn't you say in your op that humans are beasts that have acted violently throughout history. I got the impression that you think civilization has altered that somewhat. Don't you have something more to say than if Christians were Moses or Abraham, they would do what they did?

In reply to an earlier post on May 6, 2012 2:48:28 PM PDT
mrs exp says:
Mark R Allen,
God gives his creatures, spiritual and human, freedom to make their own choices. After the Fall (Gen 3) man ,and probably also angels, had a propensity to sin and sin they did. So God sent judgments to that world as he will at the end of this age.

Then why do we have flora, fauna, lemurs and dolphins at the present time?
And how would you or I know if Satan and sin had not effected the flora and fauna as well as man, probably at man's hand as scientists are doing today with their genetic engineering.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on May 6, 2012 3:01:10 PM PDT
mrs exp says:
Jack Vix,
No Abraham didn't know it was a test, but he trusted God who has promised that his descendents would be as many as the stars through Isaac. His carrying out the command showed that he did trust God and that was the test.

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; 18 it was he to who it was said, "In Isaac your descendants shall be called." 19 He considered that --God is able to raise people even from the dead,-- from which he also received him back as a type."

Christians compare scripture with scripture and get the whole truth.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on May 6, 2012 3:02:29 PM PDT
mrs exp says:
Mr Krinkle,
When he returns every eye will see him you won't be left in the dark.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on May 6, 2012 3:03:25 PM PDT
mrs exp says:
Amon,
Yes I do believe that God is all powerful and all loving.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on May 6, 2012 3:38:14 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 6, 2012 3:41:30 PM PDT
Jack Vix says:
Well, if anyone that tries to say otherwise is an agent of the Devil sent to decieve, and you won't be fooled by my coercions because you've been told not to with guidance and it's all your own thinking... then OK, I'm not even gonna argue that rationalization, it's just crazy.

My point is that you admire a genocidal maniac and a man willing to sacrifice his son because "God said so" is the absolute moral guide.

In reply to an earlier post on May 6, 2012 5:28:00 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 6, 2012 6:10:15 PM PDT
Jack Ix,

Moses appears to be admirable because they have a set of laws and they follow the rule of law when the laws are broken. As you somewhat pointed out, we are somewhat social creatures and the rule of law helps to keep society in tack. Society having no rules seems like no society at all. Thus, it would appear that Moses is an example of following the law.

Abraham is probably captured the best by Soren Kierkegard, but I think Job accomplishes what is behind Kierkegard and Abraham story that he tells. An example of this existential situation is captured by Frank Kafa's story "The Trial". The character is in a Church and waiting to meet someone. The person waiting gets tired of it and walks towards the door. They all of a sudden hear their name called out loudly, and the person pauses and realizes they can even turn around or not: "At the moment he was still free: he could walk on and leave through one of the three small dark wooden doors not far from him. That would mean he hadn't understood or that he had understood but couldn't be bothered to respond. But if he turned around he was caught, for then he would have confessed that he understood quite well, that he really was the person being named, and that he was prepared to obey."

In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 6:55:25 AM PDT
Vicki says:
Dear Jack,

Your opinion about God is soooo wrong. I have found Him to be loving, faithful, trustworthy, awesome, powerful, merciful and forgiving, knee-shakingly holy, and commendable in every way.

In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 10:57:59 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 7, 2012 10:58:43 AM PDT
Jack Vix says:
[Your opinion about God is soooo wrong.]
----------
Oh is it? OK. Thanks for that. Now I'm enlightened.

[I have found Him to be loving, faithful, trustworthy, awesome, powerful, merciful and forgiving, knee-shakingly holy, and commendable in every way.]
----------
I believe you may actually believe what you say you believe but I don't believe what you believe because what you believe is unbelievable to me. But you don't believe me. So that's the problem. You don't believe that I can't believe what you say. I believe that you can believe what you say, so, believe it or not, this is not equal treatment here.

In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 10:59:55 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 7, 2012 11:00:21 AM PDT
Jack Vix says:
Wow, you're quite insightful and really have great points. /sarcasm
Your reply to Jack Vix's post:
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In reply to an earlier post on May 7, 2012 12:23:21 PM PDT
Jack Vix,

They were about two figures that you brought up in your OP. And thank you for admitting that they were insightful. It appeared that some people were getting stuck on minor issues.

Posted on May 7, 2012 6:39:49 PM PDT
mrs exp says:
Jack Vix,
"* MOSES *
Now, everyone knows about the story of Moses and the 10 Commandments. But people tend not to know what happens after that story. There are polythiests worshipping false idols, namely a golden calf. So what does Moses do? He gathers some loyal monotheists that are on his side and tells them "Those guys are our friends, some of them are our family, but they're worshipping other gods. We can't have that. So, get your weapons, let's go from one side of the camp to the other and kill them all." So, right after you have the 10 commandments you immediatley have a story of about 3 thousand polytheistic Jewish tribe-people being hacked to death by the monotheistic Jews in a religious massacre."

There is a war in heaven, God vs Satan. On earth for a time Satan was winning. People were worshiping idols which were no gods but stone and wood, but behind it was Satan. When God took the Israelites out of Egypt it was to have one nation who worshiped the true God. A place to start.

Within 40 days of saying "All the the Lord God has said we will do" they started worshiping an idol, a false God. If God hadn't nipped it in the bud the who thing would have been ruined from the start. God was fighting for our lives (yours and mine) so that we can go into the next age and as God he has a right to judge those that he has created.

If you read Exodus through Deuteronomy you will see the the Israelites grumbled, complained and worshiped false god through out the 40 years and continued on after the conquest until God finally had to kick them off the land as he did the Canaanites.

The Israelites main purpose was to be a light to the surrounding nations and to bring forth the Messiah, Jesus. They were partially successful in the first part finally, attracting many Gentiles to their beliefs, but the real success came in after Jesus resurrection when many people have come to believe in the true living God.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on May 8, 2012 1:05:14 AM PDT
Jack Vix says:
exp: it was to have one nation who worshipped the true God.

JV: So slaughtering many thousands who don't worship your god is perfectly acceptable... honorable even? Wow.

exp: kick them off the land as he did the Canaanites.

JV: I love your soft language, very orwellian. God has the right to torture and slaughter thousands("judge" and "kick them off") huh? What gives him this right? Creating? My sister created her children, does she have the right to slaugher them pitilessly? No, but God's different, right? Because he's God. Whatever God does is good, because he's God. Morality in the Christian worldview is a tuatology as meaningless as saying this: "Mike is morally perfect. What does it mean to be morally perfect? To be morally perfect is to have the moral character of Mike."

And to top it off God kills, so that must make killng morally right. Oh, but of course, it's only right for God and not humans. Meaning God is getting his morals for us from outside his own nature. So it's as arbitrary as us defining morals. It's just God's arbitrary definition that he commands on his totalitarian authority.

exp: God was fighting for our lives (yours and mine)

JV: I didn't ask. You're basically telling me (as an non-believer) that I'm as good as dead till I believe as you do. You imply that this is some kind of gift that I must submit to an unalterable tyrannical authority that must watch everything I do every minute of my life, who could convict me of thought crime even while I sleep? This is not a gift, it's an imposition. Oh, but I have a choice don't I? Yes, it's not imposed because I can refuse. And what happens then? I can go straight to Hell. Well, sorry if I don't find the charity in this fight God is involved in. I rather see it as a terrifying and petty idea, and I'm glad the evidence for it is nihil.
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  16
Total posts:  74
Initial post:  May 3, 2012
Latest post:  May 8, 2012

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