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Why I don't believe the Bible...


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In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 11:18:46 AM PDT
Marcos says:
Mrs exp,

If you think that Biblical creation is worldwide, you are very wrong. There are plenty of other myths that are incompatible with the Biblical creation.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 12:43:00 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 10, 2012 12:47:32 PM PDT
Bubba says:
Gays may be "welcome" in church, but gays are not accepted. As your church is in California, there are married gay couples in your area. Even though they are married, possibly "in the eyes of god" in another church, they will still be considered to be "sinning".

From their website:

The conviction of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church is that homosexuality is a sin

The Bible clearly states that homosexual behavior is a sin.

Unrepentant homosexual behavior is incompatible with the confession of Jesus as Lord, which is required of members of the EPC.

Unrepentant homosexual behavior is incompatible with the ordination vows for the offices of Deacon, Ruling Elder and Teaching Elder.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 12:51:19 PM PDT
mrs exp says:
Bubba,
You are right unrepentant sin is incompatible with church membershp or ordination vows. That is any unrepentant sin not just homosexual. But it is true that I would welcome you in my home and accept you as the wonderful human being that you are, at least as far as I know you are wonderful.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 1:00:54 PM PDT
Re JagdTiger, 7-10 8:47 AM: "It does seem this theory of evolution is starting to crumble like the walls of Jericho..." Since the ToE is provably correct, the probability of it crumbling is exactly zero.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 1:06:04 PM PDT
Re Dan, 7-10 11:12 AM: "... Scriptural logic ..." A contradiction in terms.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 1:34:41 PM PDT
Bubba says:
It is a problem when churches try to separate being gay from having gay sex; having sex is an integral part of life -- str8 people have str8 sex and gay people have gay sex.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 2:43:20 PM PDT
Nick says:
mrs exp writes: You will have to point out these contradictions to me for I don't see them.

Nick: First, before you respond, pay attention to which name for God is used: YHWH or Elohim (English versions will say "God" or "Lord") in the following passages I cite. How many animals of each kind did Noah take on the ark (compare Gen 6:19-20 and 7:2-3)? When you separate out the verses that use YHWH from the ones that use Elohim, you realize there are two distinct stories with different writing styles, different emphases, differing numbers of animals, differing numbers of days, etc. I'm not going to go into more detail, but there is much more that could be written.

***
mrs exp writes: As for the pattern of two stories throughout the Torah I don't see duplicate stories. I see that some things happened multiple times under different circumstances. Abraham let the Egyptians think that Sarah was his sister and Pharaoh took her into his harem. When Pharaoh found out that she was his wife he kicked Abraham out of the country.

Nick: And have a look for which name for God is used in those two similar stories. Do the same for the duplicate of Sodom (Gen 19) and Gibeah (Judges 19), which has almost identical language (compare Gen 19:5-8 and Judges 19:22-24).

***
mrs exp writes: Therefore there is two stories that happened in two different places and with to different endings. These were two different times when Abraham's faith was weak.

Nick: Or they were written by two different authors who retold the story differently. Keep in mind Hebrew did not become a written language until about 1000 years after Abraham supposedly lived. 1000 years is a very long time - would you trust as literal a story that has been passed down orally for the last 1000 years?

Have you ever wondered why God sent an angel to kill Balaam for doing exactly what God told him to do? Have a look at the different names for God used in those passages.

***
mrs exp writes: I can understand that you should leave a church that treated you horribly, that was not a Christian thing to do. And I can see why you might give up church or change to another church if they are not teaching what Jesus taught but why give up Christianity which is or should be what Jesus taught.

Nick: Are we not to judge a tree by its fruit? Consistently I have found evangelical Christians to be the most judgmental, prejudiced, discriminatory and downright hypocritical people I have met. The buddhists I know are really good people who are more "Christ-like" than virtually any Christian I know. The agnostics and atheists I know are more "Christ-like" than virtually any Christian I know. You will know a tree by its fruit.

***
mrs exp writes: You would be welcome to come with me to church at any time.

Nick: I know you write that in a spirit of kindness and grace, so thank you. But I can assure you I never ever want to step foot in a church again.

Well,

***
mrs exp writes: what on earth is `cognitive dissonance.'

Nick: Essentially, it's when you believe two completely contradictory ideas at the same time and don't see that they contradict.

***
mrs exp writes: Well no matter what some others may think of you I like you and accept you for what you are.

Nick: And I say the same to you as well.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 2:49:30 PM PDT
Astrocat says:
mrs exp - struggling with her/his homosexuality and yet remaining celibate. Unbelievable.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 2:50:17 PM PDT
Astrocat says:
mrs exp, "creation views" could be universal and they'd still be wrong.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 3:28:58 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 10, 2012 3:30:17 PM PDT
Sarah says:
Sarah - "Try to keep up."

BV: You have to realize that atheists don't have a sense of humor!

S My father was an atheist. He had a very good sense of humor. Try not to be mean and disrespectful. Try not to be bigoted.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 3:52:22 PM PDT
Sarah says:
mrs exp, quoting the Evang. Presb. church:

"CONCLUSION
In light of the biblical witness, the Evangelical Presbyterian Church concludes:
1. The Bible clearly states that homosexual behavior as a sin.
2. God forgives repentant sinners. As Christians who are ourselves sinners redeemed by the grace of God, we must reach out to those persons who are struggling with homosexuality, offering them the word of hope that is the Gospel to the end that they may experience true wholeness through the freeing, renewing grace of God in Jesus Christ. "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." (John 8:36) (See Appendix: "Guidelines for Christian Ministry to Homosexuals.")
3. Unrepentant homosexual behavior is incompatible with the confession of Jesus as Lord, which is required of members of the EPC.
4. Unrepentant homosexual behavior is incompatible with the ordination vows for the offices of Deacon, Ruling Elder and Teaching Elder.
1Scripture quotes are from the New International Version, © Bible Society, 1973-84"

None of this means that they wouldn't welcome into the church a celibate homosexual who is struggling with his/her homosexuality and if remaining celibate they could attain the highest positions in the church.

I do not find this restrictive as a single woman I must remain celibate.

S The Bible also orders people not to work on the Sabbath, specifying the same penalty as for homosexual activity, is this not the case? So does the Evangelical Presbyterian Church similarly enforce Sabbath observance and exclude from its welcome and from its highest positions people who do the specified forbidden work activities on the Sabbath?

How about farmers that don't leave the corners of the field unreaped? People who keep employees' wages overnight? Judges or juries who show partiality to the weak? Folks who spread slander among their people? Or put on a garment made of two kinds of thread? (See Lev 19).

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 5:03:47 PM PDT
Astrocat says:
Sarah: Or eat shellfish or seethe a kid in its mother's milk - come on! - and so on and so on and so on.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 5:17:06 PM PDT
mrs exp says:
Bubba,
Not all straights have straight sex or at least they are not supposed to. If you are not married you are not supposed to have sex. This was a problem for me for many years, not so much now because I'm 80.

As some churches see homosexual sex as sin they naturally think that gays should not have sex. There are churches that allow gays into their church even if they are having sex. But all churches have not accepted that.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 5:27:22 PM PDT
Bubba says:
Your church's problem with gays having sex isn't that we aren't married, its because we are gay. As I had said in my earlier post; your church is in CA and there are gay married couples in your state. If the problem was about gays not being married, then Christians wouldn't be fighting against same sex marriage.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 6:14:48 PM PDT
mrs exp says:
Nick,
I know of the documentary theory things that the names of God (Elohim and Yahweh) are written by two different people at two different times. But that is not how we interpret theose names. For instance Genesis 1 is telling the story of creation from a chronological and majestic point of view. Elohim is God in his majesty. Genesis 2 uses Elohim Yahweh because this is God acting personally with humans, his children.

As for Gen 19 and Judges 19, the only thing that is similar is the way the women are treated disgracefully. The context is very different. I may have missed it but I didn't see any mention of God in Judges 19.

No, I wouldn't trust a story that was written down 1000 years after it happened. You cannot be certain that there was no writing in Abraham's time, for they were writing on clay tablets long before that in Mesopotamia and that is where Abraham is from. I propose that they wrote on clay tablets. And when Moses produced Genesis he translated and compiled these into the book of Genesis. As a matter of fact I think that Adam, Noah, the sons of Noah, Seth, Terah and others kept historical records of what happened to them. Moses used those also.

Elohim the majestic one talking to Balam. Balam wasn't a believer so why would Elohim talk to him personally. But when the donkey saw the angel of Yahweh it was now now close and personal. But Balam couldn't see the angel. He only saw him later after he had beaten his donkey for what he though was being stubborn but was actually saving his life.

Yes, you should judge a tree by its fruit. I think many evangelical Christians are all the things you said, hypocrites and it is a blight on Christianity. I don't have an answer for you. I myself am having quite a time finding a church that I am compatible with. But I would never give up my love for the Lord.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 6:15:34 PM PDT
mrs exp says:
Nancy Davison,
That is your opinion.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 6:16:47 PM PDT
mrs exp says:
Sarah,
No they don't, but I observe the Sabbath.
I am not responsible for other people do.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 6:19:27 PM PDT
mrs exp says:
Bubba,
You and I know that there are some people who will always fight for gays not to have equal rights. I'm with you there.

But I believe that the Bible teaches that homosexuality is wrong and therefore I have to stand with my church on this. I know you will not like this and I'm sorry but I have to go with the Bible on this.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 6:53:32 PM PDT
Sarah says:
ND: "Sarah: Or eat shellfish or seethe a kid in its mother's milk - come on! - and so on and so on and so on."

S: No, I did not say this. ND said this.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 6:58:45 PM PDT
Astrocat says:
Sarah, I was agreeing with you, just adding the silly restrictions found in Leviticus.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 7:05:51 PM PDT
Sarah says:
>S: So does the Evangelical Presbyterian Church similarly enforce Sabbath observance and exclude from its welcome and from its highest positions people who do the specified forbidden work activities on the Sabbath? How about farmers that don't leave the corners of the field unreaped? People who keep employees' wages overnight? Judges or juries who show partiality to the weak? Folks who spread slander among their people? Or put on a garment made of two kinds of thread? (See Lev 19).

mrs exP Sarah, No they don't, but I observe the Sabbath. I am not responsible for other people do.

S Nobody said you were. You have lost track of the topic. The topic was the policies of your church in excluding from its welcome people who engage in homosexual activities. I asked if it also excludes persons violating other requirements of the Bible. That is what is meant by the questions I wrote:
___

"So does the Evangelical Presbyterian Church similarly enforce Sabbath observance and exclude from its welcome and from its highest positions people who do the specified forbidden work activities on the Sabbath? How about farmers that don't leave the corners of the field unreaped? People who keep employees' wages overnight? Judges or juries who show partiality to the weak? Folks who spread slander among their people? Or put on a garment made of two kinds of thread? (See Lev 19)."
___

These are questions about the Evangelical Presbyterian Church. Now do you remember the topic?

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 7:08:24 PM PDT
Sarah says:
Mrs exp to Bubba: But I believe that the Bible teaches that homosexuality is wrong and therefore I have to stand with my church on this. I know you will not like this and I'm sorry but I have to go with the Bible on this.

S I see. You have selected one biblical provision to stand with, because your church selected that one biblical provision. It seems a very arbitrary choice. It is clear that they bypassed some very important teachings in order to focus on this one.

On what basis was this very arbitrary choice made?

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 7:09:34 PM PDT
Sarah says:
ND: Sarah, I was agreeing with you, just adding the silly restrictions found in Leviticus.

S: Oh. Thank you.

Well, when you use a person's name or initials, followed by a colon, the implication is that you are attributing the comment to that person.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 7:35:29 PM PDT
Astrocat says:
Sarah, that was probably a typo. Apologies.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 8:04:01 PM PDT
Tinker says:
Andy, thanks so much. I'm thankful I came to Him at a young age, 9, because He jpkeot me from so much others experienced. I have a simo,e faith and my testimony is simple. I knew I wanted Jesus in my life and knew He would forgive my sins when I asked.

I used to think I didn't have a great testimony, as so many who had been delivered out of drugs or experiences during their life amd have great Damascus road experiences. God is good to each of us no matter when we come to Him.

Keep following in His footsteps, He will never lead you the wrong way.
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  72
Total posts:  1029
Initial post:  Jun 26, 2012
Latest post:  Oct 12, 2012

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