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Why Do Christians Bring up The Same Tired Arguments Refuted Long Ago?


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In reply to an earlier post on Jul 4, 2012 2:38:47 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 4, 2012 2:39:04 PM PDT
ELVIS FAN says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Jul 4, 2012 6:19:50 PM PDT
Dan Holley says:
Lao Tzu........ Give it up!! You will never get anywhere with the christians. They CAN'T give up their religions because they were brainwashed at such early ages and unrelentingly each week! It's made it impossible for them to give up their beliefs because they think by giving up their faith that they are giving up and "betraying"all the things they have believed in and held onto; things that aren't true and never existed. Dr. Gregory House hit the nail on the head when he said, "If you could reason with christians, there would be no christians!" I prefer "non-believer" to atheist and non-believers need to come up with a new approach in trying to help believers see that in truth, they are believing in nothing.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 4, 2012 6:42:40 PM PDT
Dan Holley says:
PL ........... This is a reply I made to one of Lao Tzu's comments. Then I read your comment. I tried to explain to him that most any exchange between a non-believer and a christian is futile for the reasons I have given below. Lao Tzu, didn't mention that he is full of bitterness and hate against god, like the rest of us, he is full of bewilderment that you poor, brain washed believers can't see the gazillion of holes in what you believe!! But you (believers) aren't reasonable. He also didn't call babies dying and natural disasters "evil." Read his comment again and get it right. You can't possibly understand how free and unfettered we feel since realizing how idiotic and inane religious beliefs are. And you speak of the bible..... .. this bible is so full of 'god' demanding death for so many things and what finally burst the religious bubble for me is that your loving 'god' has a "hell" prepared for so called "sinners." It reminds me of another tyrant who was and still is hated as one of the cruelest sadists in history. Could it be that Hitler took a few tips from "god??" He also created a hell WITH fiery furnaces right here on earth. Your "god" also admonishes slavery and murder of one's own children! You should be ashamed to admit belief in such a cruel, demonic entity that, in fact, doesn't even exist. So you should be doubly ashamed! Rest assured that you have the pity of millions of people who have come out from under your "god's" non-existent thumb!!

Lao Tzu........ Give it up!! You will never get anywhere with the christians. They CAN'T give up their religions because they were brainwashed at such early ages and unrelentingly each week! It's made it impossible for them to give up their beliefs because they think by giving up their faith that they are giving up and "betraying"all the things they have believed in and held onto; things that aren't true and never existed. Dr. Gregory House hit the nail on the head when he said, "If you could reason with christians, there would be no christians!" I prefer "non-believer" to atheist and non-believers need to come up with a new approach in trying to help believers see that in truth, they are believing in nothing.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 4, 2012 8:21:19 PM PDT
brunumb says:
EFAN: "Why do really ignorant, defiant, blasphemous, and disrespectful people here really want out of God? They want a party, do anything it doesn't matter type, that is what!"

You've got that backwards Fan. It's you Christians that want all that freedom, and it pains you so much that you can't exercise it because you think that Big Daddy is watching and will burn your nuts for eternity if you even try.

Atheists behave morally without the threat of eternal damnation hanging over their heads. They get it from within as empathetic human beings.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 5, 2012 12:36:59 AM PDT
Celsus says:
Elvis Fan

People like you provide one of the the best reasons to abandon Christianity. So keep it up.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 5, 2012 5:51:44 AM PDT
Lao Tzu says:
Dan Holley says: Lao Tzu........ Give it up!! You will never get anywhere with the christians. They CAN'T give up their religions because they were brainwashed at such early ages and unrelentingly each week! It's made it impossible for them to give up their beliefs because they think by giving up their faith that they are giving up and "betraying"all the things they have believed in and held onto; things that aren't true and never existed. Dr. Gregory House hit the nail on the head when he said, "If you could reason with christians, there would be no christians!"

Lao says: I understand your point Dan. On another post I talk a bit about memetic theory, or how a mind-virus can propagate.

If Mrs. exp or EFan never change their minds or consider the evidence, I can live with that. My intended audience is the casual forum reader with real questions in mind. There must be some number that read but do not post, perhaps they just up-vote some posts.

Also, I do have a new approach. Rather than convincing anyone there is or is not a god, step back and teach them about logic, rationality, epistemology, logical fallacies, bias, what they are and why we should pay attention to them, etc.

For example, one good poster here often quotes "that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence". Do you think the average Xian reader on this forum truly understand this statement and what it means? They probably just gloss over it, feel the momnetary dull heat of anger, and move on.

So our job (and this is a much more giving, generous job) is to help them learn how to think. We can do this without ever mentioning gods and their existence. Go back with them into the mechanics of how they draw ANY kinds of conclusions. If they get that far, their lives will be better.

I am thinking of starting a new thread on this topic.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 5, 2012 7:47:55 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 5, 2012 7:48:25 AM PDT
James I says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Jul 5, 2012 7:57:10 AM PDT
Dan Holley says:
Christians have closed minds when it comes to their "faith" and beliefs. So there is no reasoning with them. You go into any discussion of the existence of "god" with the mind set that you are right and the attitude that trying to show you that what you believe in is myths and the writings of old men from a few thousand years ago, is truth and enlightment. Human intelligence has come a long way since the time men were creating the bible and religion. I would bring my thinking into the present and what astronomers and scientists have learned and snap out of your fairy tale beliefs. OR, at least have an open mind to what we have learned in the past 2,500 years. Mark Twain summed it up when he said : "Faith is believing somethng, even when you know it ain't so!" And I'm sure that way down inside of you, you know "it ain't so!" Religion was created as a "get out of hell" free card. The fact that religion claims that your loving god has created a place of unspeakable torture for those who don't bow and scrape is proof enough for me that your imaginary god is nothing more than a "devine" Hitler. And you "praise" this cruel god!!! If there was a god, as you say, he doesn't need any praise and probably doesn't want "praise!" If there was a god, as you say, I think he would be much better "served" by us praising each other and getting along with each other, rather than all of the useless, boring "how great thou arts, etc, etc, etc!!!" A god of the caliber you publish would know how great he art and would be bored by your puny praise. Try to be reasonable and step beyond your "comic book" of a bible that gives license to these things:
Eating Your Children? Deuteronomy 28:53
Burn Them? Psalms 140:10
Buy slaves? Leviticus 25:44
Happy To Kill Children? Psalms 137:9
Hate Them? Psalms 139:19-22
Hate Your Family? Luke 14:26
Slay Enemies? Luke 19:27
Wars must be? Mark 13:7-8
God Creates Evil And Peace? Isaiah 45:7
And there are more on his list!

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 5, 2012 8:15:43 AM PDT
Dan Holley says:
You know we have thoughts, just like your conscience lets you know you have a soul. You can deny it to your blue in the face but you know it to be true.
JUST like YOU know YOUR consicence lets you know that there is no god. YOU can deny it until you're blue in the face, but you know in your "soul" that there is no god. You just want that "get out of hell free card!"

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 5, 2012 8:30:11 AM PDT
Dan Holley says:
You guys are the best! If there is no sin and right or wrong then why argue with anyone? I'm just a bunch of misfiring chemicals and all my thoughts are right because thats what my chemicals have produced. Who are you to tell my chemicals that they're malfunctioning. That would be mean, wait no it wouldn't because there is no absolute moral guidlines. It couldn't be majority rules because that would be chemical discrimination. If indeed to discriminate would be wrong depends on whose chemicals we ask I guess.
G Howard.............. Wow, I thought your quotes from your bible were nuts, but this quote from YOU is even crazier! You don't need god, in my opinion,you need psychiatrist !

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 5, 2012 8:39:51 AM PDT
Dan Holley says:
Lew Craig says:

Ah, an age old question. God is not impotent or malevolent. He has created this Earth for us to be tried and tested. The evil that does exist in this world is not his creation, but the opportunity to see how we will react to the evil around us. We have our agency as to how we will react. If people were more obedient to the commandments and precepts that have been given, many of the evils in this world would be nonexistent. Yes, there are random forces that do exist, but if God saved everyone from all evil, we would not have the opportunity to choose good from evil.
How absurd! What loving parent would give birth to a child to be tested OR obedient? Have you ever noticed that bible doesn't encourage anyone to "think?" Yes, the bible wants you to think about what the bible tells you to think and nothing more. And what you don't realize is that since being made up, religion/god has caused lot's of "evil!" In Inquisition, all of the witch trials and burnings, just to name a couple. What religion, representing a "loving god" could burn another human being? It's unspeakable and that's just a part of the history of your religion! How shameful.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 5, 2012 8:42:05 AM PDT
Dan Holley says:
That's why they made up the invisible man in the sky and their religion...... so they don't have to think anything but what the bible and their religion tells them to think. And, how they stick to both of them!!!

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 5, 2012 12:27:14 PM PDT
Lao Tzu says:
Dan Holley says: Lao Tzu...also didn't call babies dying and natural disasters "evil." Read his comment again and get it right.

Lao says: Exactly right. I agree I was misinterpreted either on purpose or because they did not get my argument.

Just to repeat, there is nothing evil about a Tsunami per se. There IS something evil about a God that would cause it to happen or let it happen to the innocent when they could do otherwise.

Also, humans are capable of evil. Evil can exist without any supernatural creatures. We have our own definitions of evil.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 5, 2012 12:34:21 PM PDT
Lao Tzu says:
James says: What you accuse Christians of is one of the things you are doing in this post.. Not thinking, not open to the evidence..

Lao says: There is a terrific video that talks about open-mindedness better than I could put it. Could I ask for a few minutes of your time to watch it? Let me know what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 5, 2012 12:51:30 PM PDT
Lao Tzu says:
James I says: Christianity is not a religion without reason

Lao says: Have you ever noticed, James, that the best way to tell a lie (any sort of lie) is to make it 90% of the truth? Of course Xianity threads some rationality in it, it would not have survived if it didn't. But Xianity does not hold itself out as a useful philosophy that can be improved upon, it says it is the word of god. That requires a different level of rigor in examination.

James says: Your simple dismissal of people's beliefs, without considering how they came to them is completely biased and unthinking itself.

Lao says: It is my questioning all those fine folk about how they came to their beliefs which made me an atheist in the first place. Generally speaking, the answer, when you press them is either "I just know" or "I had this experience I cannot explain any other way". Neither of these answers added to my confidence in religion.

Also, where did my bias come from? Because I was raised in atheistville, surrounded by atheists, and went to atheist schools all my life? None of these would be true.

I have a bit of a temper. Hence my nick here, Lao Tzu, which reminds me to go with the flow. Perhaps this is my "mind-virus", some formative experience when I was 3 or something? I did not say I was not as susceptible to a mind virus as anyone else, I just know I was fortunate not to get this particular one.

You can notice this though - children who reach the age of reason (around age 12) without religious training are unlikely to become religious.

http://www.fishtells.com/2009/12/re-age-of-reason.html

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 5, 2012 2:44:44 PM PDT
Very good point, Lao.
Your reply to Sophie Amrain's post:
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In reply to an earlier post on Jul 5, 2012 2:50:50 PM PDT
Dan Holley says:Christians have closed minds when it comes to their "faith" and beliefs. So there is no reasoning with them.

SA: I do not think that is true. Several of the best posters here are former Christians. So there IS a way out of the thought trap.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 5, 2012 4:49:52 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 6, 2012 11:18:28 AM PDT
J. Green says:
Sophie Amrain says:
Dan Holley says:Christians have closed minds when it comes to their "faith" and beliefs. So there is no reasoning with them.

SA: I do not think that is true. Several of the best posters here are former Christians. So there IS a way out of the thought trap
----------------------------------------
Those are FORMER christians you speak about.

They spent a LOT of effort trying to reconcile their ridiculous beliefs.
When they realize how ridiculous their beliefs were they are skilled at real logic because of the brain ppower they had to use to fool themselves.
They do it alone though not on a public forum.
Then they come on!!

Someone like Elvis Fan or B.Nixon don't even understand that there may be an issue that needs explaining.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 6, 2012 2:51:09 PM PDT
I agree that one does not changes ones mind on a public forum. But the seeds for being able to do so may still be layed down on a public forum. You just never know, whether you will have had an effect.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 6, 2012 4:49:34 PM PDT
J. Green says:
Sophie Amrain says:
I agree that one does not changes ones mind on a public forum. But the seeds for being able to do so may still be layed down on a public forum. You just never know, whether you will have had an effect.
------------------------------------------------------
If christians can be convinced to read the bible than they may open their eyes.
Mine sure were.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 9, 2012 1:48:12 PM PDT
ELVIS FAN says:
Yes do you?

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 9, 2012 2:55:33 PM PDT
barbW says:
I think Celsus is a girl, Sarah.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 9, 2012 4:07:57 PM PDT
J. Green says:
ELVIS FAN says:
Yes do you?
-----------------------
Its brick.Special brick.
Hell is surrounded /enclosed by brick?
What is the brick protecting.Earth.?
Is hell inside Earth?

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 12:18:46 AM PDT
AxeGrrl says:
A.J.Bradbury wrote: "Of course atheism is a faith"
~~~~

Please explain where the 'faith' is in saying:

"what convinces you that a god exists doesn't convince me"

I'm very interested in hearing your response.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 10, 2012 5:26:32 AM PDT
barbW says:
huh?
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
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Initial post:  Dec 1, 2011
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