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Part II: Call for Reform in the Catholic Church: Why and what is needed to effect much needed change!

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In reply to an earlier post on Mar 14, 2012 11:13:49 AM PDT
dischism says:
whomper

Displaying your people skills again?

I know many Catholics who are fine people.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 14, 2012 11:14:18 AM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on Mar 14, 2012 11:14:24 AM PDT
Raulito says:
Alexandra,

"because they are being asked to commit to the near impossible...."

Tell us about this "near impossible" they are asked to commit? Thanks.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 14, 2012 11:15:47 AM PDT
Raulito says:
whomper,

May I offer you a suggestion?

If the Christians here don't address your congregation as a "whore" it may be helpful if you do the same, and this will help us enter into a Christian dialogue, and leave the name-calling for another age.

Posted on Mar 14, 2012 11:22:36 AM PDT
Raulito, the Church may very well be the possessor of the majority of documentation
(or Deposit of Faith) that validates the life and ministry of Jesus Christ. But so long
as the keepers of that documentation and faith misrepresent it to the world through
their actions against others, it will not matter how credible the documentation otherwise
is; the world will reject it based on the misconduct and hypocrisy of its trustees.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 14, 2012 11:22:49 AM PDT
Astrin Ymris says:
Alexandra,

I would LOVE to hear Cardinal Dolan attempt to answer the question under oath, "In precisely what way does the Child Victims Act target the Catholic Church?" ;-D

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 14, 2012 11:25:13 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 14, 2012 11:29:40 AM PDT
The Church is so egocentric as an institution and on an individual level, Astrin, it presumes that anything
to do with religion in the news is always about the Catholic Church, alone.

I should add that this egocentricity extends to the Church's attacks against SNAP. Or they like to forget
that SNAP also advocates for victims of clergy abuse who are Mormon, Baptist, Jehovah's Witnesses, Orthodox,
Jewish, Buddhist, Nazarene, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Muslim, et al.

Posted on Mar 14, 2012 11:31:27 AM PDT
dischism says:
Barbara

Thank you for the compliment. *blushes* :)

There are points on which we disagree, but I know you are always concerned with others' welfare and are in favour of growth and dialogue even when it implies change. :)

< example: efforts to lower, to "skirt-
around" the age of consent>.

I don't know anything about this. Can you give me a reference please, because I'll campaign against this with all my heart.

The age of consent here is 16, but that doesn't apply to someone who's been in loco parentis, for instance a teacher or youth leader - they'll still go to court and lose their career even if the minor is seventeen/eighteen and rightly so because it is a breach of trust with a complete power imbalance.

I must say I find the situation a little different, though, if it were a sixteen and a fifteen year old. The waters are somewhat muddy in this situation.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 14, 2012 11:35:07 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 14, 2012 11:35:32 AM PDT
The list would be very long Raulito. Or what you 'forget' is I have already
posted about what I think is inhumane in terms of the expectations the
Church imposes on priests and sisters who serve the Church. Or I think
they are sometimes as much victims of abuse--some of them--as those
who have been victimized by offending clerics. For example: the fact that
the epidemic rape of nuns by priests in Africa was ignored by the Vatican
for so long is inexcusable in my opinion. How were those sisters supposed
to carry on with their work while under siege in that way? That was beyond
sexual harrassment on the job; that was a crime against humanity that
the Vatican ignored for at least three years.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 14, 2012 11:37:44 AM PDT
Raulito says:
Alexandra,

"what I think is inhumane in terms of the expectations the church imposes on priests and sisters who serve the Church..."

You mean, loving and serving others without sleeping with them (celibacy). I get it.

Must be very "inhumante" for men and women to love and serve others joyfully, and not allowed to take them to bed.

You are funny Alexandra.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 14, 2012 11:41:52 AM PDT
Go back and read what I wrote Raulito. You obviously did not and
you are not funny. Answer the question about nuns abused by
priests in Africa and don't tell me to produce 'proof' or that you
don't know about it. I have a friend who was one of the victims and
National Catholic Reporter covered this in great detail to an extent
that should have come to the attention of even those Catholics
who do their utmost to remain oblivious to criticism of the Church,
even by its own.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 14, 2012 11:47:04 AM PDT
Astrin Ymris says:
Raulito,

The Commission's report showed that there was no real justification for the Church's ban on contraception, and that testimony from the laity showed that this ban had a negative effect on the marital relationship, i.e., it was doing harm. Therefore there was no justification for keeping it, regardless of HOW long it had been in effect.

But Paul VI ignored the Commission's findings, and reaffirmed the ban to "save face" for the Magisterium, ignoring the suffering of the laity who strove to follow it. By doing that, he revealed that he put a far higher priority on maintaining the prestige of the papacy than his role as shepherd to the laity.

He seemed blind to the reality that the laity would be able to see this fact clearly, despite the thicket of rationalization offered in 'Humanae Vitae'. The laity and a not-insignificant portion of the clergy lost their respect for the Magisterium's Teaching Authority at that time. The Boy had cried "Wolf!" when there was no wolf; his word would never have the same credibility again.

Posted on Mar 14, 2012 11:50:45 AM PDT
In short Raulito: how does what happened in Africa jibe with your
assertions that men and women serving as religious can "serve others
joyfully" without being "allowed to take them to bed?" Clearly priests
take others to bed, regardless. So, clearly, they're not in line with
what you believe is possible.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 14, 2012 11:51:37 AM PDT
Raulito says:
Astrin,

"the Commission report showed that there was no real justification for the Church's ban on contraception"

That's because the Church in its history may at times consider some action as an objective evil, even if the philosophical and theological reasons are not clear and the reasons have never been presented effectively and clearly.

That is why a study on the matter of contraception was necessary and timing. The history of the Church shows that studies on many teachings of the Church helps the Church in developing its understanding on the subject, so the Church may present its teaching in the most reasonable ways possible.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 14, 2012 11:55:51 AM PDT
Raulito says:
Astrin,

"the laity and not-insignificant portion of the clergy lost their respect for the Magisterium's teaching authority at that time"

Well, I would too if somehow I was led to believe that a study on the subject of contraception meant a reversal in the Church's teaching on contraception, which was not the case.

The clergy knew the teaching of the Church against contraception had never been questioned, and it was clear that the Church's teaching was against. The clergy knew that.

Why did the clergy and some bishops were disappointed because the Pope did not change the teaching? Because deep down they did not follow and obey the teaching to begin with, and they were hoping the Pope would change the teaching.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 14, 2012 11:57:46 AM PDT
Raulito says:
Alexandra,

"Answer the question about nuns abused by priests in Africa...."

Nuns have been abused in the U.S. Why is Africa so special?

I also know of nuns who have been abused in nearby parishes. One nun had to renounce her position because the priest was somehow in "love" with her, and was throwing indecent advances towards her.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 14, 2012 12:01:25 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 14, 2012 12:03:51 PM PDT
This whole contraception debate is hilarious to me given the fact contraceptive use in mostly
Catholic Italy is one of the highest in the world. Or why Italy also has one of the lowest per
capita birth rates in the world. The average size of a contemporary Italian family is less than
two children per family.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 14, 2012 12:03:01 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 14, 2012 12:04:15 PM PDT
They made HER renounce her position instead of kicking the priest out of the priesthood!

Do you grasp how bass ackwards--and sexist--that is?!

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 14, 2012 12:07:32 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 14, 2012 12:53:58 PM PDT
Oh, and why would abuse of nuns in Africa be anymore "special" than elsewhere?
You're right. The Vatican and priesthood obviously do not value nuns as women
much less as fellow colleagues in religious service.

Or why institutional misogyny is among the things I listed as being in need of
reform or abolition in the Church. If priests aren't even gentlemen with the female
religious they serve with, why should female parishioners heed priests' advice
regarding their bodies or marriages?

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 14, 2012 12:11:43 PM PDT
Raulito says:
Alexandra,

"the Vatican and priesthood obviously do not value nuns as women much less as fellow colleagues in religious service..."

Another crazy and unreasonable comment from you?

Practically 80% of the Catholic parishes in the world are run by women.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 14, 2012 12:13:00 PM PDT
Raulito says:
Alexandra,

The nun renounced her position because she did not feel comfortable working with the priest anymore. I supported her, helped her get on her feet, she came and thanked me last week, and she opened up her own business.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 14, 2012 12:15:12 PM PDT
Astrin Ymris says:
Alexandra,

I was actually thinking of a case where the Supreme Court struck down a law passed by the City of Hialeah, FL banning animal sacrifice because "..."The record in this case compels the conclusion that suppression of the central element of the Santeria worship service was the object of the ordinances," Justice Kennedy said....
He said it did not matter that the ordinances did not announce their true intention. Noting that there was no ban on killing animals for other reasons -- for food, including kosher ritual slaughter, or for recreation, as in hunting and fishing -- Justice Kennedy said, "Careful drafting ensured that although Santeria sacrifice is prohibited, killings that are no more necessary or humane in almost all other circumstances are unpunished."..."

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/06/12/us/supreme-court-animal-sacrifice-court-citing-religious-freedom-voids-ban-animal.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

Cardinal Dolan seems to be trying to evoke this decision by using the word "targeted", but in order to actually make a First Amendment case to this effect, he'd have to claim that sexual abuse of minors by Catholic priests is an expected part of RCC religious practice! Or at least that the Church has a greater percentage of such offenses than any other religious or secular employer.

Seriously; the man CANNOT have thought it through before he made that statement. Maybe that egocentrism you mentioned is to blame?

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 14, 2012 12:29:24 PM PDT
Astrin Ymris says:
Raulito,

I question your contention that "the clergy knew" that the ban on contraception wasn't being studied with an eye to modifying or eliminating it. The members of the Pontifical Commission on Birth Control certainly didn't "know" it, or their Official Report wouldn't have recommended dropping it.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 14, 2012 12:30:14 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 14, 2012 12:38:21 PM PDT
How nice of you Raulito! So, why didn't it occur to you to support her in
also reporting the priest for sexual harassment? Or he'll still be a problem
when dealing with other women.

You are very bass ackwards in your approach to sexual abuse and exploitation
prevention. Or go back to school Raulito. You aren't even into the latter
20th century with your thinking, much less 21st.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 14, 2012 12:32:42 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Mar 14, 2012 12:37:36 PM PDT
You said it not me, with respect to the bulk of the real work of the Church being done by
sisters, while the priests are off doing, God-knows-what? Yes, this is abuse of the sisters
as it proves the priests aren't doing their fair share. And then they sexually harass and
exploit the women besides, while telling these same sisters they can't be priests, even
though they're already doing almost all the work of priests, in addition to their own?

If you really believe this is fine, as is, you are way more off-kilter than I originally thought.
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
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Initial post:  Oct 4, 2010
Latest post:  Mar 21, 2012

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