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A Heavenly Banner: The Constitution of the United States of America


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In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 12:39:42 PM PDT
Bubba says:
"What religion is imposing its beliefs on everyone else. What beliefs have been imposed?"

For recent examples of religion is imposing its beliefs on everyone else, see the anti-gay constitutional amendments of several states, including Prop 8 in California. See also the unconstitutional laws of several states that prohibit sex between homosexuals.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 12:50:55 PM PDT
Bubba says:
"Do you really think everyone who opposes same-sex marriage would support some kind of anti-gay Inquisition?"

Yes, I do. It would not only be LDS church that would push for laws calling for the stoning homosexuals, it would be all Dominionists, including the Roman Catholic Church.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 1:19:10 PM PDT
>I'm curious- why do you chose to value a secular defense of a proposed course of action above a faith based position?

Because faith-based positions should rightly be called "Myth-based" positions. Your Book of Mormon is a case in point. It is full of myths from beginning to end, as is the Bible it is meant to supplement.

>Cannot a rational and enlightened people appeal to God to justify their position?

Not if they wish to remain rational and enlightened. There is no God.

>If man and his governments is the ultimate/ final authority, this certainly will take us in different directions than what was envisioned by our Founding Fathers.

The Founding Fathers allowed slavery (as your church formerly allowed racial preference in church offices) and passed a law in 1792 requiring all able-bodied men to purchase firearms. Jefferson personally authored a statute requiring freed slaves to leave Virginia. The Founders were admirable men, but not everything they said should be upheld today.

>This does not mean that we should not use the best scientific, etc. evidence available to support our argument.

If you use the best scientific evidence available, you will stop worrying about faith-based positions. It takes no faith to observe that water boils at a certain temperature.

>As to separation of church and state, this simply means that the state should leave man alone in his worship and exercise of his conscience.

No, it doesn't. It means that one man may not impose his religion on another man with legal force. If you really don't understand this, you aren't qualified to discuss the matter at all.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 3:25:00 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author on Apr 23, 2012 7:19:26 PM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 3:38:48 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author on Apr 23, 2012 7:19:36 PM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 3:43:48 PM PDT
GJS

Because you said the colonies were dominated by the puritans, as this incorrect, you should learn the history so as not to make the mistake again.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 4:12:45 PM PDT
S. Kessler says:
this is worth another posting, since GJS obviously thinks the only colony that was ever founded was Massachusetts Bay.

In answer to a poster's assertion that "America was founded upon religion" I said the following:

Historically, the notion that America was founded upon religion is a fallacy. True, our national myth tends to focus on the Pilgrims and Puritans coming to New England to supposedly escape religious oppression (which they then practiced toward others who had different religious ideas). But there were 12 other colonies chartered by the Crown and with the exception of Maryland, which was chartered to provide a religious haven for Catholics, and Rhode Island, which was founded by Roger Williams as a haven for those persecuted by the Puritans, none of the rest of the other 10 colonies had a religious basis to their founding. Most were founded explicitly to exploit the economic potential of virgin forest and farmland. New Amsterdam, later New York, was founded by the Dutch West India Company, purely as a commercial enterprise and was extremely diverse religiously, ethnically, and linguistically from its very beginnings, and continued in that mercantile vein after being handed over peacefully to the British. Georgia was founded basically as a penal colony. Virginia was also founded basically for commerce and the exploitation of its natural resources by the scions of wealthy British families. And on and on.

An excellent book on the legacy of the Dutch settlement of New Amsterdam, which later became New York, of course, and its legacy of religious toleration and promotion of secular government that was embodied in the Constitution and Bill of Rights is The Island at the Center of the World. I highly recommend it. The Island at the Center of the World: The Epic Story of Dutch Manhattan and the Forgotten Colony That Shaped America

So, tell me, again, how the United States was founded on religion?

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 4:13:54 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 18, 2012 4:14:23 PM PDT
S. Kessler says:
So you obviously prefer the unfounded generalization to actually providing facts. Sorry, that dog don't hunt.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 4:23:36 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author on Apr 23, 2012 7:19:53 PM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 4:40:47 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author on Apr 23, 2012 7:20:06 PM PDT]

Posted on Apr 18, 2012 5:04:50 PM PDT
I cinfess I was wrong.

Six American Colonies Founded for Religious Motives

Five Colonies were established by Puritans in New England: Plymouth (1620); Massachusetts Bay (1630); New Haven (1638); Connecticut (1639); and Rhode Island (1644). In 1662, Connecticut received a charter from the Crown that included in its boundaries the New Haven Colony, which thereafter became part of Connecticut and ceased to exist as a separate Colony. The other two Colonies founded on a religious basis were Maryland (1633) and Pennsylvania (1682).

But consider, Plymouth and Massachusetts quickly became single. Same for Connecticut and New Haven. RI, Cinnecticut and New Haven were formed by people banished or self-exiled from Massachusetts. Plus RI was religiously tolerant. So four of the 13 colonies that became the US were founded for religious reasons.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 5:32:11 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 18, 2012 5:33:16 PM PDT
Cal Engime says:
So you believe the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church, whose opposition to the death penalty for anything is very clear (http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/World/20111130/pope-benedict-xvi-seeks-end-to-death-penalty-111130/, http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae_en.html, http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/death-penalty-capital-punishment/), are just hypocritically concealing the true depth of their hatred of homosexuals so that once they have enough influence in society, they can punish sodomy by stoning?

Posted on Apr 18, 2012 5:58:09 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author on Apr 23, 2012 7:20:29 PM PDT]

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 6:13:54 PM PDT
Bubba says:
yes, the hate of the rcc is so great for gays, that they would impose the death penalty. The rcc has a history of punishing people with death.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 6:22:03 PM PDT
mrs exp says:
Michael Altarriba,
Can you give me an example of what such a law would be like.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 6:26:23 PM PDT
mrs exp says:
Ku,
I can't even impose it on all Christians so how could I impose it on all citizens.
But on the other hand I don't want evolution imposed all everyone either.

I really don't like it when people say that because I don't accept evolution that I am not open to reason. Are you open to look into creationism?
I am a very reasonable person and having looked into evolution and creationism I think creation has a better chance at being true. I used to believe in an old earth and evolution.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 6:27:00 PM PDT
mrs exp says:
Cal Engime,
Which God did he mean then?
exp

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 6:30:54 PM PDT
S. Kessler says:
What was I lying about? I'm not the one who seems to think that the only colony that counted was Massachusetts and the Puritans who founded it. Calling someone a liar with not evidence to back it up can be considered slander, you know.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 6:31:29 PM PDT
mrs exp says:
S Kessler,
In other words they were politicians. And believe me I am thankful for the results and our Constitution.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 6:32:22 PM PDT
Ku says:
"I am a very reasonable person"

Then I'm sure you'll have no problem giving me reasons for thinking evolution is wrong.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 6:35:12 PM PDT
mrs exp says:
S Kessler,
April 2011 - For the first time in American history, Obama urges passage of a non-discrimination law that does not contain hiring protections for religious groups, forcing religious organizations to hire according to federal mandates without regard to the dictates of their own faith, thus eliminating conscience protection in hiring.
10. Chris Johnson, "ENDA passage effort renewed with Senate introduction," Washington Blade, April 15, 2011.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 6:37:13 PM PDT
mrs exp says:
Michael Altarriba,
The Creator of Deism is God, however far removed. And Christians worship God we just see him more personal.

Now if you want to hold out that it is Zeus or Thor as some have we have at it.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 6:37:48 PM PDT
mrs exp says:
Mark r Allen,
Laugh away.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 6:39:45 PM PDT
S. Kessler says:
GJS: Keep in mind; while they were initiating this new government in a new world they were also in the process of protesting the very religion they always knew to be "the only Christian Faith" in the form of Roman Catholicism.

SK: Once again, you don't seem to know what you're talking about. The founding fathers were almost all Protestants of one kind or another. Only Maryland was created as a haven for Roman Catholics, who at the time were a persecuted minority in Great Britain. Had been ever since the downfall of Bloddy Mary and the ascension of Queen Elizabeth in the 16th century. By the time the colonies were beginning to be settled, Great Britain (and the Netherlands) were decidedly Protestant. So, know, the vast majority of the early settlers and the founders who developed from that stock were hardly "in the process of protesting the very religion they always knew to be "the only Christian Faith" in the form of Roman Catholicism.". They were already way past that era.

You also seem to be saying that the only "real" Christianity is present-day, modern evangelicalism. You call both Lutheran and Calvinist Christianity "crude". This is utterly fascinating. And not in a good way.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 18, 2012 6:40:26 PM PDT
GJS

Another bit of history to consider: 17th century western Europe was a battlefield for governments deeply entangled with religion. Being generally educated men, they understood that this was not a good plan, so the set out, like men who were familiar with Spinoza and Locke, to keep the government from getting entangled in religion by refusing to recognize any denomination or religion as officially sanctioned.
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  33
Total posts:  533
Initial post:  Apr 16, 2012
Latest post:  Apr 30, 2012

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